Bonzo Moon

Posted by Piers Bowlan on 29/01/2021 20:34:04: Posted by J D 8 on 29/01/2021 16:18:22: Coming back to the actual model/flying. Given that in the second video the model started doing what it did in the first video, that is uncontrolled prop hanging. Could it be that the battery slipped back ? I have built a few flying wings or tailless models over the years. As a general observation they usually need a very forward C of G (in the region of 20% MAC and sometimes forward of that). They always seem to need a goodly amount of reflex to compensate for the forward C of G to make them stable in pitch. Finally, plenty of down thrust is usually required, often at least 5 degrees if not more. The model in question didn't appear to have very much down thrust which might account for it's propensity to prop hang under power whilst displaying a respectable power-off glide. Just my 2p worth. I agree, I'd say all of my previous builds have some down and side thrust, but the plans for this and illustrations of it had no down thrust. Weird? CoG was perfect too, or even a bit nose heavy just in case, on the second test. It even says in the construction notes here The RimFire 250 motor that the author used was screwed to the motor mount. He made sure that there was no downthrust or side thrust. The O-ring prop saver is the appropriate propeller mount for the belly-lander. plans

Posted by J D 8 on 29/01/2021 16:18:22: Coming back to the actual model/flying. Given that in the second video the model started doing what it did in the first video, that is uncontrolled prop hanging. Could it be that the battery slipped back ? I always make sure batteries are well secured. It was velcro fixed plus had a velcro strap around it and through the foamboard fuselage. No way it could slide or fall off. Looking at the way the model was going from full chat, prop hanging, to zero I think a problem with the throttle channel, as someone suggested elsewhere, or even maybe the ESC, or BEC output, which was rated more than adequately and barely warm when I ran ground tests. Dodgy rx? I will never know. If there'd been less wind I'd have likely got away with it. My stupid mistake. 3mm high minimum - legible typeface and if not appropriate e..g. for a scale model, accessible to check without tools. I went to 5 mm Printed off a sheet with Word, multiple labels and just stick on with clear tape. Also .... That reporting requirement is certainly in our Article 16 Authorisation, so it is reportable whichever way you operate. Dick Will do!

Posted by Martin Harris - Moderator on 29/01/2021 14:11:56: Bonzo - are you a member of the BMFA? If so, it would be best to call their office for advice/guidance on incident reporting. Just to clarify Dick's point, Article 16 applies ONLY to members of the organisations granted priveleges. Thanks. Will e mail them. cheers.

Posted by john stones 1 Moderator on 29/01/2021 12:49:57: Just a forum member, modelflyer speaking here, ignore the moderator bit. You chose to post the video Bonzo, it invited comment, you surprised people did so ? How did you get on with the Fly away report ? Hi John, I followed your link and TBH I didn't see any mention of flyaways only accidents and incidents. I will explore some more! You chose to post the video Bonzo, it invited comment, you surprised people did so ? Well yes of course, though I didn't expect  a whole host of ill-informed people telling me I was breaking all the rules!    PS   And thank you Dick!    BM is quite correct in that he doesn't need to be a member of the BMFA or operate under the terms of the Article 16 Authorisation. If he has a Flyer ID and also has his Operator ID on his model, he can quite happily operate under the terms of CAP722 (commercially or otherwise):- Edited By Bonzo Moon on 29/01/2021 14:15:58

I'm not in any hole. For some reason there are folk on here who think they know best. They should take some time out and do some research. I have  backed up  everything I've said. And yes, it is tedious. Edited By Bonzo Moon on 29/01/2021 12:37:06

So it is commercial. Being commercial takes it outside the BMFA guidelines and Insurance does it not? Yes. BUT you do not have to be a member of the BMFA to go an fly an RC plane in a field do you? I do not and I will not go and fly at my club field and compromise my club. ALSO irrespective of the BMFA and club flying ... I have passed the CAA test and have an operator ID. Registration mandatory from: 30 November 2019 The UK’s new Drone and Model Aircraft Registration and Education Service is now live. There are two elements to the online system. Anyone responsible for a drone or unmanned aircraft (including model aircraft) weighing between 250g and 20kg needs to register as an operator. The cost for this is £9 renewable annually. My models have CAA operator ID on them where necessary, that is all they need. DONE Do you need a license to fly a RC plane? Although there is some new laws about flying RC planes, there really is no license. Keep your aircraft under 400 ft (AGL), have your permit (not a license) on you at all times & the registration numbers on the permit also marked on the aircraft. You will be good to go. Where can I fly my RC plane? You can fly your rc plane or drone anywhere below 400 ft, so long as you're not near an airport, a crowd of people or other sensitive areas, and you're not infringing local laws. You can fly in some local and National Parks and on beaches, but you can't fly on National Trust land. I'm really very very bored with this now.

But I am not earning money by flying a drone. If I was I'd need a PFCO, I've already said that.  My YT channel is paragliding, paramotoring, RC planes, tech stuff etc.   This is getting boring.   Edited By Bonzo Moon on 29/01/2021 10:57:20 Edited By Bonzo Moon on 29/01/2021 11:07:54

Hi Simon, thanks for the comments and interesting to hear that you painted with emulsion, something I didn't think of trying. I've used a few very light dustings of an aluminium spray paint on the white foamboard. Too much and it lifts the paper. That has been ok but the paint comes off on my fingers even when dry, every time I handle it! My first thought was very tail heavy, said it on the video on day one, but the CoG was spot on and the glide was one one of the best I've ever seen in a test throw, it was superb.  I was dead sure it was going to fly well or I suppose to be honest I doubt I'd have risked trying it with a bit of wind. All the same for the flights the next day I moved weight forward.  There was obviously something else wrong I think.  There was only one short stage when I flew out of the sun and it was close by to go downwind and out of the sun that it was OK, then it went back to the climb like crazy and prop hang phase. I suspect the RX, big throttle and no response to my inputs and failsafe didn't work properly. I doubt I'll find it now though and after a few days in the rain the RX will be xxxx'd anyway. I'd like to have recovered it to try and figure what had gone wrong, particularly with the fail safe, but I'll never know. BUT I will not maiden again when there is too much breeze! Look forward to seeing how you get on with the Vulcan. Apart from the flight in the last video I haven't been out actually just flying just for recreation. Not pushing my luck that far with the lockdown.  though making videos is part of my living.  This week it's a digital photo frame I received two days ago for review. I don't have to go out to test that.  Next week a new action camera from Akaso is due ( free for review. £100+ worth of camera.)   I will have to go out for that for part of my review for  test clips and if I get asked by the police why I am out I will point them to my YouTube channel with 50+ action camera reviews.  I'll argue that in Court if necessary!  Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 22:59:08 Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 22:59:45 Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 23:01:47 Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 23:08:33 Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 23:09:19

Posted by Rich Griff on 28/01/2021 20:47:40: I heard of depron is it, but not used it, yet. I have use white foam in the past And yes, us slope soarers launch in windy conditions, with the right model, and as someone pointed out in an other thread, land dead stick all the time 😊. I had to land dead stick within a set area as part of the slope soarer bronze award years ago. Things change. I have had to land dead stick with the 4 channel shadow due to fuel, and from memory as part of the A test, but that was years ago now and things change. The second foamy was a pusher motor ? The Vulcan ? Lovely bit of product placement by the way. The second foamy used the same tx as the "uncontrollable" ? The white foamboard has a paper skin, waterproof and probably stronger than the old depron. I've had depron models but never built with it. All my models are flown with my budget FlySky FSi6 tx and FlySky rx's they are cheap to buy too. Never had a problem with it up until that RM1 thing. The Vulcan is great but very overpowered with the recommended motor. Haven't really had much chance to fly stuff for fun, only maidens of new things for my channel. Can't remember which product placement it was, usually pot of coffee and a bottle or two of beer or wine!

Just me, camera on forehead. That flew well. The RM1 was totally uncontrollable. Explore foamboard building and Flight Test web site. Foamboard 4 sheets £10 , a glue gun and away you go. Keeping me busy through lockdowns! Vulcan plans were on the site I link on the video below. Flight Test web site Vulcan and plans   Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 20:32:47

Posted by john stones 1 Moderator on 28/01/2021 20:17:36: Dubai been added to the off limit list. That's me scuppered then?

where was the camera ? On your head ? Mounted on my forehead filming the flight from my POV. I'm still a novice too. Tech changes so fast, there are even flight controllers for RC planes now that will guide them and return to home. I have a cheap, £80 drone that was sent to me free by a manufacturer that will even fly a route by it's GPS waypoints. (I occasionally get offered free stuff for test and review. Mostly it was action cameras. 50 odd!) I did grow up with IC motors. Chopped the end of my thumb off with one. Stainless steel pin and 4 days in hospital and they put it back on.

I think the newish government add is trying to, the one that says look them in the eye and say you have done as much as you could ( could, should etc ) to help stop the spread of this now very very very contagious virus ? Walking 5 mins up the road on my own and flying an RC model out in the open air on my own isn't going to cause an increase in Covid rates. Are you on furlow by the way, be honest now. Self-employed so no chance of furlow! I wish. .... I do take the point about frustrated people though, it's tough and I am lucky to have been able to get out with my 'thin' excuse. If anyone will pay for the flight and accommodation I'll be happy to see what RC flying is like in Dubai? I do hope we can all get out and do the stuff we love to do soon.

That's a very clever idea Cliff. Going to use that one!

Oh my God and as I write an answer to one reply , there's someone else telling me 'the rules'. I am not and was not filming for money. That's where the PFCO comes in with drones. You obviously aren't very well informed about THE RULES. The drone was not tracking the plane, I flew it in a search the next day. I have never interviewed anyone in the back garden at no 10, does that make you know all about RC flying rules? I did some stunt work paragliding for a German film company for a film that was seen by millions of people, does that make me important too? Flying electric models you always need to know the battery level it's just like 'the fuel in the tank' Though no doubt you've never had an IC model run out of fuel though. If you are flying anything with a weight over 250 grammes you need to be registered. Don't kid me you didn't hear about it. And no, I am not stupid, apart from the fact that I am responding to your questions.  Troll. And I am not so stupid as to post things if I thought they were illegal.       Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 19:46:04

Well yes, a bit perplexed. People telling me I shouldn't be going out, people telling me what the rules are, quoting articles etc. I know the rules thank you. And I do my best to comply with rules and regs. There's always someone wanting to tell you different. . You said My reading is that we have to stay in and not go out. NOT correct. I'm not going to quote you lockdown regs, in a cut and paste, but you can go out for exercise and for work and essential shopping. You should see the traffic on my local dual carriageway, try telling all those people that they have to stay in and not go out.!

I posted a video about me test flying a £40 foamboard model with a tiny little brushless motor and a 1000 mA 2s lipo on day when it was probably to windy for a test flight hoping it might be educational or interesting? Didn't expect the BMFA police, the CAA police, the Covid police etc. Lockdown fatigue I guess? Can't be bothered to discuss anymore. Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 18:54:54 Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 18:56:12 Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 18:57:12

Oh dear. Here we go. For one, you are mixing up Covid and BMFA rules here. And drone operating rules. And I'm doing my best to comply with all, not that I see it's any of your business to be honest. My understanding of Covid restrictions, is you are only allowed out for a walk for exercise and NOT for recreation, but my YouTube revenue is part of my income self-employed and we are allowed to go out to work. Making videos is part of my 'work'. The camera was on the drone. I'm BMFA and CAA registered and the drone had the necessary operator ID label stuck on in an easily visible location. AND if I'd been flying the drone 'for commercial purposes' I'd have needed a PFCO, but I wasn't. What would the BMFA say about power lines? I have no idea. But I bet more than a few models have ended up in them. You don't have to be a BMFA member to fly a drone or a model aircraft by the way, though I am. I mentioned 'club sites', because AFAIK club sites are closed and recreational flying is not currently permitted. I'm a qualified paraglider and paramotor pilot and can't fly those at the moment, let alone go sailing in my dinghy. But I can go a fly a model plane in a suitable location. If it had contacted a power line it would have broken a prop and fallen from the sky. It wasn't a USAF UAV! Any more questions or observations? edit OK , only just seen Ken's post.  Yes, wasn't the best idea to be stood below the power lines but I was flying away from them, it was actually intended to be safer than where I was stood before flying towards them.  It was another lesson learned about RTH on drones.  AFAIK the battery still had a good 40 % left, as I said I was timing the flight.  I can't go back and edit or I would! Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 18:40:27

Posted by Rich Griff on 28/01/2021 17:01:38: All this during covid, not to mention power lines, the sun, that big yellow balloon in the sky that I thought I saw this morning, a plate wing, powerful motor ? And modern radio gear that twitches, what am I doing wrong ? I presume it has throttle control, sorry electric motor speed control, down thrust, side thrust, and it did glide ? I will stick with 27meg, 2 channel r and e, and a full chat paw 09 ( or Cox td09 ) on the front ! Only kidding but what do I know. And drones are a problem ? Ha ha, only just seen yours mate! The glide was BEAUTIFUL, the original design didn't call for any side or down thrust and I doubt very much that was the problem. I only switched from 35 mhz (uk standard) last year. Finally got fed up with a great long antenna with a flying wing. But 2.4ghz has served me well. Yellow thing in the sky was a pain, low sun , winter time. Drone was OK. They have their uses! I've got 18 models on 2.4 ghz now all flying OK, I think I got a bad rx? And re Covid, not a club field, so OK and my YouTube channel with 5K subscribers is part of my income so not just 'recreational' flying!

Thanks for all the replies, I will endeavour to answer. Matty. I always check my failsafe at home when setting up a model. Set to close throttle and give a little right or left aileron so it will slowly circle and come down. The budget FlySky FS 6 tx doesn't have a facility for range test, and when you are on your own somewhere you can't do a walk away test. In my 35 mhz days I'd retract the antenna and walk away. Only switched to 2.4 ghz last year! And before people start posting saying the FlySky is rubbish, it has done me really well so far! Loads of range and 20 models capacity , I have 19 on it now, oops 18! I will check out the flyaway report issue. Piers. and Simon. No name and address and phone number. I have done that before though. I have looked at the video several times and zooming in I can see exactly that it is this side of the trees on this side of the road. Not really a total flyway, I can see where it came down! I can narrow it down to an area of just about 100 yards. There was mostly no signal in the field, just occasionally with 90% error, but 0% error just over the small ridge on this side of the road. I did the compass bearing thing (I am a qualified Ocean Yachtmaster amongst other things!). Having studied the video even more I've been to my standing flying location and looked and identified the trees it went into with binoculars. I can identify the trees it went in front of and behind. AND I did look along trees both side of the road just in case I've got it wrong. I've been back 4 or 5 times. It's deep scrub and brambles with a few small paths in it. I have been several times and have the mud and bramble cuts to show for it! No telemetry, just TX battery strength and error on my display. If I'd had some way of direction finding on 2.4 ghz I might have been able to pin point the location better. I know the method well, when I started ocean sailing 45 odd years ago there was no GPS and I used RDF for navigation! After a 5 day Biscay crossing you'd know your position within 25 miles or so! My tx is pretty basic. It was showing tx error and battery strength. I thought afterwards , problem with having the tx turned on and rx still receiving when I was searching, the model finder beeps after a minute with no signal. I did turn the tx off occasionally but it was probably unwise to be searching with the tx turned on. It rained the next morning and by then there was no signal from it anymore anyway. Having looked again this morning for about the fifth time with a 95% positive idea of where it went in unless I went down with a petrol hedge trimmer and cut through loads of 5 foot high brambles I'd have no chance of getting to it even if I could see it. I have given up. It had a model finder beeper and they've always served me well before, but I can only think that it got disconnected as it went through branches or brambles. A couple of lessons to take away. Very silly of me to test fly it when it was a bit breezy, I'd have got away with it had it been light wind. And two, the original design had the rx mounted underneath in an open position and I didn't like that. Landing in scrub it might pull leads out, so I'd moved it on top. Lesson though, rx should be covered in some way as should the beeper. I had a real scare with my drone.My standing point was under the power lines as it was the best search start location and I was timing my flight carefully but it was an old lipo and the drone decided to RTH with low voltage. It climbed to 50 feet and returned to GPS position just over the power lines and then started to auto land. Trying to descend between the lines! From underneath where I was stood it looked really inches away! Luckily I got control again and flew it away from them. The camera alone on it was £100. Drone £200? All for a foamboard model that cost me less than £50. I might go and have another go with my big drone at some point, but apart from the little brushless motor there's little worth salvaging. £5 worth of foamboard. two servos, tx £8? probably dead, and battery will be zero. I will live and learn. My stupid mistake flying when it was breezy.

Had a couple of test flights of my latest foamboard creation the other day, RM1 supersonic fighter, an easy build from online plans. CoG was spot on and the glide was superb, I was confident it was going to fly very well. The test flights did not go well. 😭. 1st day it was almost uncontrollable, which I put down to CoG, though I did have suspicions of a rx issue. Broken prop. 2nd day, CoG, more nose weight (though by all accounts it was set according to the plans.) Got to the field, a bit windy, but I thought what the hell and went for it. MISTAKE! Barely controllable and in between prop hanging and then diving, was blowing away as wind was higher aloft, plus it was not responding to my tx inputs.  Fail safe was set and I always test it's working when I set up. Anyway, watch the video. DON'T TEST FLY ON A BREEZY DAY! I've been back 4 times, even searched with a drone, studied the video and have a 75% good feel for where it came down. Almost lost the drone when searching as it decided to auto RTH and was above power lines! The drone is worth several times more than the foamboard thing! Foamie had a model finder bleeper too. I should have reduced the throws a bit after day one, but even setting up at home the elevons were twitching, which I put down to being close to the tx. I have flown a few bad ones but always managed to keep control, I blame the RX? And my stupid decision to try it on a breezy day. 1st model loss in 15 years. 😏 You live and learn. Edited By Bonzo Moon on 28/01/2021 14:04:16

Posted by SIMON CRAGG on 24/01/2021 17:02:26: Bonzo.... Did you find the c/g on the plan about right? I have got a 3s1350 33c which should be ok. Hi Simon, yup, CoG seems good as specified. Re the pusher question I seem to have stirred a hornets nest with my comment that 'there's no such thing as a pusher prop'. However I Googled years ago re this subject and it's what I'd seen. It's an old hot topic! Plus it's logical to me? I have no doubt that a lot of people on here have far greater knowledge on this than I do, AND I agree, some props are sold as 'pusher props'. I think they just mean opposite hand. But please check out some of the quotes I took from other groups. 'Google' ... Does a propeller push or pull? This action, of course, occurs on all the blades around the full circle of rotation as the engine rotates the propeller. So the propeller is both pushing and being pulled through the water. I appreciate the point that IC engines only run one way and it's easy to change the direction of brushless motors but putting a left hand prop on doesn't mean the prop is acting in a different way to a right hand prop. It's pulling and pushing. And obviously you get left and right hand props for drones, it cancels torque, they wouldn't work any other way, but they aren't pusher props, they are just left and right handed, If you had a model with an IC motor that was aft and in a pushing location, if the prop is fitted with the size info facing forward it is pulling. All props push air? It's called thrust. Check out the links I posted above and below.... There's really no such thing as a pusher prop. There are CW and CCW props and for IC engines that can't turn in reverse you need the right sort for the mode or location. But for electrics which turn in either direction we can use either type of prop in either tractor or pusher mode. Steve And On quad copters they use two motors turning CW and two running CCW to balance out the torque and allow for yawing by cross controlling the motors. This requires matching props that only differ by being pitched for the different rotations. This is also why you'll find a lot of examples of such CW and CCW pairs. Before this quad copter invasion we did not used to have such a variety of reverse rotation props available. If you are flying a single motor model with the motor set up as a pusher then you can use either sort of prop. Just set the motor up to rotate the proper way. Note that any prop used on an airplane model should be set up so the side with more curve to the blade's airfoil faces forward. THIS IS THE KEY POINT! AND on this link ... Flight Test Forum As some have stated, the difference between a so called "pusher" or "puller" AKA "tractor" prop is just the direction of rotation. Since electric motors can spin either way you can put a so called "pusher" prop on the front of the plane, or a so called "puller" prop on the back of the plane. Standard rotation props, AKA Puller, AKA CCW (Counter Clockwise Rotation when viewed from the front) are still a bit more available, though that is changing rapidly, at least for the sizes that are commonly used for multicopters, which need both directions of rotation even though they are almost always set up to "pull". Which is exactly what I said! Anyhow, I'll say no more! Please read the discussion on RC Groups here! Pusher props??? And the other one I linked above. Enough of this anyway, it'd be nice to be out flying! And good luck with the maiden Simon, take some video!

Hi mate Sorry mate but there is actually no such thing as a pusher prop! As long as a prop is mounted with the size info on the hub of the prop facing the direction of flight a prop doesn't care if it's in front pulling a plane, or mounted mid or behind pushing it. It is still 'pulling' the air towards it and causing thrust whether pulling or pushing a model. RC Groups discussion here! I used a 3 bladed 6045 Gemfan. Put up some video of the maiden!

Yes that's weird. The spec on the plan says 29.75 inch span. Nice easy build, if you can call it that with foamboard! Post video or pics if you can!

Indeed, foamboard builds come together so fast!