Et al, etc

[Daithi O Buitigh]

I've noticed over the past few years a growing tendency in many places to try to be high faluting and tossing in 'et al' instead of 'etc'

I've seen it in the magazine, here on the forum (and other places too)

Now for the benefit of those who never learnt Latin (and yes, the 'Latin lesson' in the Life of Brian was painfully accurate for anyone of my age) please take note:

et al = et alia - and other PEOPLE

etc - et cetera and other THINGS

They are NOT interchangable

Oh and as a footnote, the magazine article on propellor pitch was interesting - but of course course pitch should read coarse pitch

Edited By Daithi O Buitigh on 20/03/2012 14:02:26

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

Who's Al

and what about et tu brute

[Oldbaldfella]

Per se.................

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Leave Percy out of this. It isn't his fault

BEB

[Oldbaldfella]

A few years ago, everytime I spoke to a manager, they would mention Percy. Funny, you never hear of him now.....

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Daithi O Buitigh]

Per ardua ad Astra (work hard and you get to go to the cinema)

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

dont forget poor Gloria being ill in the van earlier in the week.

[Daithi O Buitigh]

She drank too much Mundies

[John Privett]

Daithi, I must admit, I'd not noticed 'et al' being used the way you describe. However, I do often see people typing "ect." instead of "etc."

Another thing almost guaranteed to annoy me is those who can't tell the difference between "i.e." and "eg." In one ridiculous example an online form asked for a place name and labelled the field something like, "Place (i.e. London)" (So if they already know, why are they asking? )

[Daithi O Buitigh]

The problem is that since learning Latin went on the back burner (when I was a sprog you HAD to learn it - especially if you wanted to be a doctor, lawyer, priest, etc.) people pick up on phrases without knowing what they actually mean and promptly use them completely incorrectly.

I've seen all sorts of oddities - people talking about 'various medias', 'agendas' and so on. Media and agenda are both plurals so the 's' is totally superfluous (the singular is medium and agendum respectively)

Now strictly, people shouldn't talk about 'forums' - the plural there is fora but at least that's not as bad as mediumss

[Myron Beaumont]

Daithi

Nil illigitimus carborundum !

[Phil Claridge]

mange tou myron mannge tou

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Ah, what about the BBC telling us about "referendums" not to mention the ever popular "the data is....".

Now like many others I did Latin - and did very well at it to though I say so myself! But even for those people who know these things there surely has to be a limit? OK the actual incorrect use of et al and etc. along with the confusion of i.e. and e.g. can be a problem. But in the final analysis, English is a contempory living language, Latin is a historical dead language. In all common sense which should usage have precedence?

So maybe we just have to accept that the plural of agenda now is agendas and data is a singular noun. You see if we don't except these things then were do we stop in the process of attempting to arrest the development of a living language? Are we going to insist that a female manager is a directrix, not a director? I think not!

BEB

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

The only thing I remember from Latin class is the sting of the "leather" and the soothing coolness of the cast iron mensa leg, fond memories

[Daithi O Buitigh]

I'd agree BEB - except for the fact that it's not the English word being used but the Latin. ow in legal matters, all the Latin is gone - 'in re' is now 'in the case of'. The English for 'referendum' is surely plebiscite.

If Latin words are used, surely they should be correctly used (especially if there is an English word already there)

No leather in our school Seamus - just the duster or a piece of chalk bouncing off your head (while you got shouted at before having to write 'Romani ite domum' or the equivalent a hundred times )

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

 

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 21/03/2012 16:57:08

[Martyn Johnston]

BEB, it's 'too' not 'to'; 'contemporary' not 'contempory'; 'accept' not 'except'.

(my missus says I'm too pedantic !)

[Erfolg]

If you are going to be pedantic with respect to the so called correct use of Latin, then the same approach should be applied to Germanic words, and how about French words (where much is derived from Latin), now used in the English language.

There are yet more issues with respect to many words in current use, where the meaning has changed with time, some in a trivial manner others where the meaning is quite different.

Then there is the construction and use of language, just pick up a non revised "Alice in Wonderland". Very different in its structures and wording, with respect to current use of both spoken and written English.

We can see the changes taking place on this very forum, where new words are appearing as a consequence of Text Messaging.

Perhaps we need to revise the English Language as has been done with the German language in 1901 and 2006.

Then again, most of us manage.

Edited By Erfolg on 21/03/2012 17:32:17

[BB]

El Sid

[John Olsen 1]

But these are not latin words anymore, they have been adopted into english, where the only rule that really matters is usage. Otherwise you open a whole can of worms, considering the number of places english has borrowed words from...what is the punjabi plural of bungalow anyway?

John

[Prop Nut]

It's an excuse to say English is a living language and, if enough people use the wrong word, then it becomes acceptable. In fact, it emanates from ignorance and a couldn't care attitude from pupils (oops - students) and teachers (oops, again - educators). This rot seemed to set in with the banishment of 'chairman', to be substituted with the ludicrous 'chair', and it's been a steep downhill snowball ever since. 

Edited By Hellcat on 24/03/2012 18:01:46

[Erfolg]

The reason we are where we are is that it is a living language. Like it or not, regional pronunciations are no longer derided (well almost), the language has and is changing as a consequence of new technology, which no longer bows before the alter of Latin or Greek, the influence of USA, ethnic groups, etc.

Dead languages are not subject to change. But then again, we often do not know if the current interpretation is correct, especially pronunciation.

[Tim Hooper]

The only Latin I know;

Quantum il canis est de finestre?

 

 

Edited By Tim Hooper on 24/03/2012 20:15:13

[Andrew767]

Posted by Hellcat on 24/03/2012 17:48:59:

It's an excuse to say English is a living language and, if enough people use the wrong word, then it becomes acceptable. In fact, it emanates from ignorance and a couldn't care attitude from pupils (oops - students) and teachers (oops, again - educators). This rot seemed to set in with the banishment of 'chairman', to be substituted with the ludicrous 'chair', and it's been a steep downhill snowball ever since.

Edited By Hellcat on 24/03/2012 18:01:46

Well said that man....Good lord even radio 4 have sunk to this....Fith, sikth...and they can't pronounce Cape Wrath (said Wroth) anymore!.

Andrew