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I read that as saying, I think unequivocally,

1. They have put in an offer

2. The offer has been accepted

3. The contract is scheduled to be signed on 5th June.

When are they they thinking of asking us? Or am I just being hopelessly naive?

If I've read that correctly - and I've no reason to assume I haven't - this is an outrageous and total disregard of the membership!

BEB

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It is disturbing, in my opinion.

Although the same discussions are being regurgitated, there is a fundamental flaw in the study. That is from what can be gleaned from what the hierarchy of the BMFA has released.

  • There does not appear to be any identifications as to the scope/options of what a NFC should be. At present it is all things to all men, a pick and mix concept as far as the membership is concerned
  • The study starts by selecting sites, although for what, or how extensively any site is to be used is apparently omitted as a starting point.
  • For all we know, there are no options as to what is to be purchase as we do not really know what will happen or be provided. From this lack of clarity we do not know what the delivery (costs of acquiring, any new build, the cost maintaining the site and the costs for running the facility (be it rates, loan repayments, wage etc) costs of what this non defined NFC will incur.

I expect that all the regions will be holding area meetings over the next few weeks. No doubt the subject of a NFC will come up. I would expect that a vote should be held, although there could be pressure to avoid a vote. If a series of votes are held, assuming that they were to follow the lead of the "West Midlands Area", where no enforcement was made, rather a request for a full declaration, available to all, so that the matter can be properly considered, will this prevent the signing on the 5th June. Will the BMFA post these results, or maybe choose to ignore any votes taken?

I do have a sense that those of us who are cautious are portrayed as being against a NFC, it is more that I have seen nothing to convince me that it is a good idea. I could be convinced, although I want evidence, not just the notion it is a good idea.

I can honestly say, that there is only one member in our club in favour. The remainder range from sceptical to not seeing any merit in a NFC. On that basis alone, the BMFA (management) needs to be cautious, and start taking the membership along with them, rather than taking support for granted.

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Posted by iqon on 11/05/2015 22:40:08:

Thats the way I read it, they are going ahead unless its thrown out at meeting, by that time we will have spent some of the coffers to solicitors

Northern area meeting is Friday night Iqon, get yourself there and request help for an open day toilet at same time.

John

P.S I hear they sell nice beer wink

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Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/05/2015 22:18:56:

I read that as saying, I think unequivocally,

1. They have put in an offer

2. The offer has been accepted

3. The contract is scheduled to be signed on 5th June.

When are they they thinking of asking us? Or am I just being hopelessly naive?

If I've read that correctly - and I've no reason to assume I haven't - this is an outrageous and total disregard of the membership!

BEB

Isn't this just what this whole thread has been about all along - or is this new information and perhaps some of us have just read between the lines more intuitively?

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The problem is chaps we are labouring under a delusion here. Let's have a few truths, at least as I see them:

1. The BMFA is not like your flying club - we are called "members" but we are not - in reality we are customers of a trading company called "The British Model Flying Association". We pay an annual fee for services received.

2. Those "coffers" you refer to do not belong to us - they belong to the company. They are the company's accummulated profits and the company fancies making an investment. Which is nothing to do with its customers - ie us.

3. Ergo - we have no actual right to any say in how they are spent. Oh they will say "council represents you", that's rubbish. They don't. They are effectively the board of directors of BMFA PLC.

4. BMFA, is a trading company, so who are the "owners"? Well it is entirely owned by the SMAE - so they are the people who would have a right to a say, even if only indirectly. Anyone here a member of SMAE? No? Funny, I thought not.

If you want to get your head around the situation think of the RAC. You're a "member" right? No. You are a customer of a breakdown insurance company that trades under the name "RAC" and is owned (or at least was) entirely by The Royal Automobile Club of London. Think you're a member? Well trying walking into the Royal Automobile Club and sitting yourself down in the members reading room in the comfy leather chairs. I'm sure they would soon disabuse you of your view!

The BMFA is not a club, it is not really even an association in the normal meaning of that word - its a business - and at heart its not even a particularly engaging business. They don't tell us what's going on, not because they are incompetent as is often claimed. They don't tell us because they don't have to and they don't want to. Using the RAC analogy again, if the RAC decided to build a £20M new headquarters building do you expect to "have a say" as a "member"? No. Well its just the same here.

Think this can't possibly be the case? Well, take a quick look at the BMFA Constitution. Oh I'm sorry, I forgot, you can't, because they don't put that on the website. You see they don't have to, its private. You can have a copy - but you'll have to write and ask for it enclosing an SAE - just like you would if you wanted to read the Company Articles of any Public Limited Company.

BEB

 

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/05/2015 23:24:19

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While it sounds right from your analogy, I've certainly not looked at the BMFA from that point of view - and apparently the author of the BMFA website hasn't either:

"Therefore, the BMFA is a true democratic organisation whereby every member has the opportunity to influence BMFA policy. Once elected, the responsibility for running the BMFA rests with the Council of Management which is in effect the Board of Directors of the SMAE Ltd, the BMFA's parent company. The Council of Management consists of 32 elected members and is responsible to the membership. It is governed by the Articles of the Association. Council is supported by other specialist councils and committees"

(my italics)

Edited By Martin Harris on 11/05/2015 23:36:12

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on point 1:

I particularly find it quite irritating that "membership " is from 1 jan and not for 12 months from when I want to start it, like many other insurance policies. I quite humbly put this to a BMFA rep at their stand at Blackbushe: that they'd maybe get some more members if the membership could start when the member wants it to, i.e. im skint after christmas.. and was told "well tough, its not that much".

Charming !

as you put it BEB: "an association in the normal meaning of that word":  ,,,would seek to meet the needs of its members and potential members. I certainly didnt feel like that was the attitude I was met with. sad

Edited By twinstar on 11/05/2015 23:49:32

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I see nothing in that quote that contradicts what I have said Martin. Yes you have "the opportunity to influence" - but they don't have to listen. I have the "opportunity to influence" all sorts of companies, but they don't have to listen either.

We have no rights, as I see it, to control how this company disposes of its assets or any investment decisions it makes. That's why they don't have to consult us - its a private decision by private company. Neither you, nor me, or any other "customer", is in any position to stop this company doing whatever its board wants to do with its own money.

What I'm saying is, our indignation at not being consulted is born of the erroneous belief that somehow this money is "ours" and we should have a say. That is not the case, and we might as well get used to it. The Council have the full power to make this decision without any reference to us whatsoever. Of course it works the other way as well - if BMFA PLC go bust - we have no liability for its debts - and no call on its assets.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/05/2015 23:59:05

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Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/05/2015 23:55:40:

I see nothing in that quote that contradicts what I have said Martin. Yes you have "the opportunity to influence" - but they don't have to listen. I have the "opportunity to influence" all sorts of companies, but they don't have to listen either.

We have no rights, as I see it, to control how this company disposes of its assets or any investment decisions it makes. That's why they don't have to consult us - its a private decision by private company. Neither you, nor me, or any other "customer", is in any position to stop this company doing whatever its board wants to do with its own money.

What I'm saying is, our indignation at not being consulted is born of the erroneous belief that somehow this money is "ours" and we should have a say. That is not the case, and we might as well get used to it. The Council have the full power to make this decision without any reference to us whatsoever. Of course it works the other way as well - if BMFA PLC go bust - we have no liability for its debts - and no call on its assets.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/05/2015 23:59:05

I can't claim any expertise on corporate affairs but didn't someone point out that we do have potential liability for the organisation's debts - although happily limited to £1 per member...

Perhaps we're more analogous to shareholders?

Edited By Martin Harris on 12/05/2015 00:12:12

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Posted by Martin Harris on 12/05/2015 00:11:13:
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/05/2015 23:55:40:

I see nothing in that quote that contradicts what I have said Martin. Yes you have "the opportunity to influence" - but they don't have to listen. I have the "opportunity to influence" all sorts of companies, but they don't have to listen either.

We have no rights, as I see it, to control how this company disposes of its assets or any investment decisions it makes. That's why they don't have to consult us - its a private decision by private company. Neither you, nor me, or any other "customer", is in any position to stop this company doing whatever its board wants to do with its own money.

What I'm saying is, our indignation at not being consulted is born of the erroneous belief that somehow this money is "ours" and we should have a say. That is not the case, and we might as well get used to it. The Council have the full power to make this decision without any reference to us whatsoever. Of course it works the other way as well - if BMFA PLC go bust - we have no liability for its debts - and no call on its assets.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/05/2015 23:59:05

I can't claim any expertise on corporate affairs but didn't someone point out that we do have potential liability for the organisation's debts - although happily limited to £1 per member...

Perhaps we're more analogous to shareholders?

Edited By Martin Harris on 12/05/2015 00:12:12

That was me, I have put it to one sidewink

John

Edited By john stones 1 on 12/05/2015 00:15:26

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There are half a dozen on this thread who very strongly oppose this move and keep re-posting the same anti BMFA/NFC garbage.

The BMFA contacted every member at the start of this project and got overwhelming support to proceed. Now it is moving on the dissenters come out of the woodwork and hassle these modellers that are trying to work for us for nothing. Embrace the idea and move on.

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Posted by john stones 1 on 11/05/2015 22:57:23:
Posted by iqon on 11/05/2015 22:40:08:

Thats the way I read it, they are going ahead unless its thrown out at meeting, by that time we will have spent some of the coffers to solicitors

Northern area meeting is Friday night Iqon, get yourself there and request help for an open day toilet at same time.

John

P.S I hear they sell nice beer wink

Anyone in that area should really make the effort to go to the meeting. You won't have a vote but you can still voice an opinion and join in the debate. If it was anything like our area meeting people could influence the single vote that each club has.

At the risk of repeating a previous post I made..if you know and saw what was discussed at our meeting you would be shocked at the costings! No money left, even in reserves , after buying the land. Then there is the building costsurprise

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I think that BEB did a good job of describing how a business operates. This forum is great for sharing opinions and generating ideas, but it has no direct role in influencing the strategy of BMFA, that is part of the role of the organisation structure of the business. There is an opportunity to influence committee members who will then have the opportunity to influence council as a party of normal procedures and presumably they in turn might be influenced by knowledge of what is being said here.

As far as I am concerned, my position remains this:- I think that there is a real opportunity here for BMFA to develop a strategy using a single new site as the platform and focus which can further the interests of its' members way beyond simply having a high profile site to fly at. Apart from increasing the substance of BMFA and potentially recognition of us in the context of protecting the future of the hobby and attracting new members in, properly done it can generate real income from the range of services that could be operated from the site. I would certainly consider conference facilities to be an essential part of any proposal, with this in mind.

Therefore I continue to wait to see the proposal developed into a realistic and ambitious business plan which will attract wider support and potential investment.

 

Edited By Colin Leighfield on 12/05/2015 08:41:08

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I haven't said much on this subject as I am waiting to hear the full information on the proposals. This however, does not appear to be forthcoming.

The one thing I will say, that concerns me, is that the course that the BMFA are taking may have the completely opposite effect to the desired one of "protecting the future of the hobby". There will be no future for the hobby, in the hands of the BMFA if the membership are not on board with their proposals.

They need to keep us fully up to date with and actively seek our opinions in an unbiased manner before progressing any further with this venture. With our support, this could be a great move for the hobby. Without it, it is doomed to failure.

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Posted by Doug Campbell on 12/05/2015 01:29:42:

There are half a dozen on this thread who very strongly oppose this move and keep re-posting the same anti BMFA/NFC garbage.

The BMFA contacted every member at the start of this project and got overwhelming support to proceed. Now it is moving on the dissenters come out of the woodwork and hassle these modellers that are trying to work for us for nothing. Embrace the idea and move on.

What "overwhelming support"? A majority in a poll only a tiny fraction of "the membership" voted in? The result of which was in an absolutely no way binding on the company because "the membership" have no power in the business.

Gary your view is very commendable - but they don't have to listen to you and are not going to listen to you. They don't care what "the membership" thinks - unless we endanger their business model. Its like asking British Gas if its worried about what its customers think about them investing in, say, a chain of hotels! They would only be worried if the customers decided to shift their custom because of it.

John has it dead right - the only power we have is £32 per year. If we, collectively, took our £32 somewhere else - then they might listen. Otherwise - us customers have "lip service influence" but nothing else.

BEB

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Posted by Doug Campbell on 12/05/2015 01:29:42:

There are half a dozen on this thread who very strongly oppose this move and keep re-posting the same anti BMFA/NFC garbage.

The BMFA contacted every member at the start of this project and got overwhelming support to proceed. Now it is moving on the dissenters come out of the woodwork and hassle these modellers that are trying to work for us for nothing. Embrace the idea and move on.

Last Sunday at my flying field, six of us were sitting at our 'coffee table' waiting for the gusty breeze to moderate. I happened to mention the NFC issue and what the others thought of it..........four had absolutely no knowledge it at all and only one said he'd read something about it "somewhere".

A lot of people are in for a surprise, depending on their point of view.

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Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 12/05/2015 09:28:18:

John has it dead right - the only power we have is £32 per year. If we, collectively, took our £32 somewhere else - then they might listen. Otherwise - us customers have "lip service influence" but nothing else.

BEB

..............................................................................................................................................................

I think that young Dave has it summed up in his post above..................I don't think that 12 or so members of the BMFA exchanging views on the forum here will sway things one way or the other ......... only if there was an alternative organisation to join and we left on mass would someone (maybe) think about us............. but most BMFA members just join for the 3rd party insurance and that's all they want/expect and aren't really bothered about the day to day stuff....and I should imagine if they go ahead and buy the land etc-that the majority of members will accept the fact....finally our club has about 120 members-only aprox 10 are involved/bothered to input into the day to day running-don't you think that the bmfa is the same etc?.. my opinion anyway ....

ken Anderson....ne...1 opinion dept.

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I must admit I am dismayed at the almost automatic critiism of this issue.

People are complaining that they were not consulted or that the purchse of land in a prospective "too good to miss" opportunity is a waste.

The governing body of our hobby does not really have a public face. We see minutes of meetings, handbooks and people on a stand at airshows giving away leaflets.

This could even be the start of several satellite airfields and centres across the country but instead of looking forwards we have folk moaning that they were not specifically sought out and asked.

Why is it so wrong to try to get an airfield and central support building for our hobby?

Why can we not look at this as people fighting and doing their best to give us, model aircraft fliers, a centralised, focused, place to meet, be educated and fly?

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A lot of people who give up their own time to run Areas and who try to get the Area Clubs to take an interest and then send a delegate to Council to represent the Area. The Delegate has a mandate to vote one way or the other.

As regards voting, if the Area Chairman decides to hold a poll, then all the Clubs present can vote with their membership numbers (as at 14 days before the meeting) and so exercise their members' wishes. That is if Club's Area Rep has bothered to attend the Area meeting and has then taken the information back to the Club and shared it beyond the Club Committee. Alright, it's not one member one vote, but given that many members don't even bother to attend Club meetings to express their views how else are we to move forward. Unlike a Club, the BMFA is constituted as a Company Limited by Guarantee and as such has to submit properly audited accounts to Companies House. It has a board of Directors, Council, who discharge the function of Directors as set out in the Companies Act. The Directors are liable for their decisions. Each Area elects a delegate (who is made a Director of the BMFA) who gets to vote on the business proposed by the Executive and can vote for or against the motion. There are 14 Delegates/Directors who are elected by each of the Areas to represent them at the highest level of management in the BMFA.

There is a persistent side issue concerning the SMAE. The name SMAE still exists and the BMFA is merely the trading name for the SMAE since it was felt it more closely resembled in what the orgainsation was involved. So comments about this mysterious body the SMAE which is such a dark threat to the ordinary modeller are somewhat wide of the mark.

Any ordinary Club member can ask their Club if they can be the formal Club representative and carry the Club vote. Any Club member can choose to attend and can speak, but cannot vote (one Club one vote or if a poll one Clubs membership number). Country members can choose to attend if they want and speak but don't get a vote at the Area Committee. You might argue this should be changed but so far no Club, or Country member in my Area, has put forward such a case.

My understanding is that the final decision on the NFC will be subject to a vote at either an EGM or AGM. Clubs are always invited to attend these events. Each Club gets one vote or, if the Chairman calls a poll, can vote with the number of members they have as at 14 days before the meeting. Again, not quite one member one vote but all Club members votes can be placed by their Club representative. It is up to the Club to make sure they send such reps suitably briefed on how they are to vote on these occasions.

What I would say, is that the small number of ordinary Club members who want to get involved in Club Committee work is magnified by 100 when it comes to Clubs getting involved in Area Committee meetings. Yes, the Area Committee Officers should make the meeting sound really interesting and positive but after that it's up to the Club Reps. Most Clubs don't even bother to send in apologies for absence.

So, I would say that the BMFA is doing what it can to ensure that members views are sought and used to guide decisions. If no views are forthcoming then Council, composed of volunteers who give their time for free, have to come to a decision, or as in this case, try and put something together that is well thought out before sending it out to the wider membership. Council has yet to debate the Feasibility Study so asking the membership view on what might be an outcome which is not yet fully thought through might be considered counter productive and draw well deserved criticism for wasting members time.

We don't live in a perfect world but the volunteers who give up so much of their time to run the BMFA (note that the full time staff including the CEO, Development Officer and Club support Officer, don't get a vote at Council as they are not elected by the membership. Remember, there is a one member one vote for candidates for the Council Executive if there is more than one candidate - you can't have a meaningful election if there is only 1 candidate.

So, people are quite right, there is no democracy in the BMFA and we should all find a cheaper insurance company to provide us with our insurance so we can go and fly our model aircraft.

Oh dear, who's going to oppose any move to limit the use of 2.4 GHz to industry (as they tried to do but which the BMFA got thrown out) and who's going to fight the case for model aircraft flying when a disaster with a multi-copter being flown by a member of the public causes mayhem - well all of us just write to our MPs of course. Who is going to provide us with the specialist input on fighting the loss of our flying field - I'm sure the cheapo company we now have to use for insurance will down tools and roll up their sleeves as our premiums are vital to their existence.

So, I agree, we have an undemocratic BMFA run by people who are completely out of touch with the ordinary member and who are only interested in their own agendas and now wish to blow all the BMFA's money on a hare brained scheme without getting any input from the membership at large. At least, I think that's what many people who have posted here are saying!

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