Electric Cars.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[IDD15]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 28/07/2019 19:27:31:

It's 7.30 pm here in Cheshire and it's almost dark so need the lights on. So that's another power consumption estimation gone for a burton.

You forgot to mention it is still raining due to global warming and that our shiny new bypass is a canal! Forget cars I'm getting me a boat!!!!

idd

[Shaun Walsh]

The A555 airport bypass is a joke in wet weather, even when it's dry there is a stream that runs across the road heading east from the A6.

[IDD15]

Posted by Erfolg on 24/07/2019 00:07:14:

The only reason I did not state the manufacturer is i cannot be sure how reliable the information is and what the official position the company has. It was very interesting to me in that i stated i wanted a vehicle that would reliably undertake a round trip journey of 140 miles daily, without charging, in the depths of winter and extremes of summer. You will all recognise what i want, heated seats, windscreen demisting, cabin heating and air conditioning to maintain 20C. Of necessity there would be quite a bit of stop and start driving. His opinion that i would be pushing the extremes of the capability of the vehicle, under some conditions.Although the vehicle was supposed to have 250 mile range

I am very intrigued as to why such a conservative opinion would be voiced. Calculations using my energy consumption figures from my Leaf would indicate that you would use approximately 35 KWhr in winter and 30 KWhr in summer. With recharge times using a domestic 7 KWHr charger of about 6 and 5hrs respectively.

On those figures I would suggest any of the 60 KWhr machines with a minimum 4 miles/KWhr consumption would be adequate. Indeed I think even the Kona and Ioniq 40 KWhr, and ZOE 50 would do it. A lot would depend on what contingency you would feel you needed charge wise.

It is important to have a contingency, as a case in point our trip to Leeds yesterday is a good example. Going the car used 13 KWhr, and on the return 17.5 KWhr. On the return trip we had heavy rain, spray, and an ungodly amount of standing water on the M62. Thoroughly unpleasant, and I was very glad I had the opportunity to top up charge whilst in Leeds off our friends garage socket.

So what are missing here that caused the car sales person to be so conservative do you think?

I pity any poor soul doing a 140 mile daily commute in this day and age. Having had an 84 mile commute for 15 years I would not want to repeat it. That's 12 hrs a week of my life I won't get back....

idd

[Rich too]

One thing a had not given any thought to previously was heating and air con in an EV. Winter especially must put massive load on the batteries, defrosting and heating the car on a freezing morning....

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Rich too on 29/07/2019 06:39:24:

One thing a had not given any thought to previously was heating and air con in an EV. Winter especially must put massive load on the batteries, defrosting and heating the car on a freezing morning....

Yes, but a bigger impact is the reduced performance of the batteries at cold temperatures which is an even bigger impact on range. Some manufacturers have battery heating systems to combat this but this too uses power.

On the flip side a lot of electric cars allow you to preheat therm, so you could do this while they are still hooked up to the charger, so you wouldn't need to start the engine and then walk round scraping the windows and the car would be nice and toasty when you get into it.

[Andy Meade]

As Frank mentions, that's how we manage with the PHEV. Wife has an app on her phone so that she can tun on heating and demisters remotely, or in the recent hot weather turn on the air con before she jumps in

[Erfolg]

A number of news items were made yesterday, the one that immediately got my attention is the closure of Ferrybridge Power Station. In my case it was the practical and academic start to my life in engineering, From memory 6*250 Mw turbines, made by the then AEI (Metro-Vicks). Billed as super efficient having used a computer to calculate blading design. The gain a heady 1-3% from memory. Apparently without carbon charges, still would operate at very much lower generation costs than Wind Turbines. Politics and Taxes has done the damage. The carbon tax stratergy hides the difference in true generating costs by the different modes of generating electricity.

With respect to conditions effecting energy consumption. A few years back when making what was a regular trip from Cumbria (where I then lived during the week), I was caught in a storm similar to those yesterday enjoyed around the country. I was used to seeing that particularly on the motorway section fuel consumption which was approx 100 to the gallon, going to infinity down hill as spot type value, and approx 30-50 mpg up hill. I was very surprised to see even going down hill that the pumping action of the tyres was often down in the 30 mpg. I think you gather for me the journey had become a bore, and played with the computer and observed to constant (spot) read out. The journey was 120 miles, from time to time I tried to get the journey done on a gallon, by careful use of the throttle, I never quite managed it.

Yesterday at the Trafford Centre I was again observing the fuel usage. Again bored, not in a rush. My usual 51 mpg combined, dropped remorsely for that journey managing only 25 mpg, although the long term average is still 53 mpg. It is obvious that it is the accelerating even at low speed that uses the energy (back to F=ma), I hardly needed to touch the brakes at all, mostly just coasting to a halt. Although the engine stops when the car stops, two things seem to happen, the first is the air con switches the engine on after consuming a certain amount of power (it is not clear to me what the deciding factor or factors is) and I am assuming that a lot of stop start travel canes the cars starter battery.

All in all it does seem that there is a significant range of energy usage due to weather conditions, that modern vehicles have to accommodate be it electric or IC powered.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Erfolg on 24/07/2019 00:07:14:

It was very interesting to me in that i stated i wanted a vehicle that would reliably undertake a round trip journey of 140 miles daily, without charging, in the depths of winter and extremes of summer. You will all recognise what i want, heated seats, windscreen demisting, cabin heating and air conditioning to maintain 20C. Of necessity there would be quite a bit of stop and start driving. His opinion that i would be pushing the extremes of the capability of the vehicle, under some conditions.Although the vehicle was supposed to have 250 mile range

Shame really, if you commuted 140 miles per day for 200 days per annum thats 28000 miles, approx 2500 litres of diesel (51 mpg) at £1.30 is £3250, an electric car doing 4 miles per kwh would be 700 kwh per annum at the average UK peak rate of 14.37p/kwh is £1005 pa and off peak of 8.7p £610 pa. Not taking into account the reduced servicing costs. Plus if you charged at home you wouldn't be visiting a garage every 4 days or so.

But a better option would be to work nearer home................................

[J D 8]

A hundred and seventy years ago most folk lived within walking or riding distance of home. Then the train companies realised there was more money to be made moving people around than just goods. Suburbs were built and the rot started.

[Don Fry]

Posted by J D 8 on 29/07/2019 17:50:26:

A hundred and seventy years ago most folk lived within walking or riding distance of home. Then the train companies realised there was more money to be made moving people around than just goods. Suburbs were built and the rot started.

I pay you the complement, I have copied that, onto a potential book of cynical remarks.

[Denis Watkins]

There were concerns over 50 years ago, about traffic congestion and pollution

Have a look at Pathe News on Youtube, London 1963 and thereabouts

No Parking and disgruntled drivers trying to do business in the City

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Posted by J D 8 on 29/07/2019 17:50:26:

A hundred and seventy years ago most folk lived within walking or riding distance of home. Then the train companies realised there was more money to be made moving people around than just goods. Suburbs were built and the rot started.

There's me thinking most people lived AT home rather than within walking or riding distance?

[J D 8]

Poo, somehow work became home, I was tired after a tedious car journey. That's my excuse and I am sticking to it.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by J D 8 on 29/07/2019 18:50:58:

Poo, somehow work became home, I was tired after a tedious car journey. That's my excuse and I am sticking to it.

So, was it a tedious and tiring journey home or a tedious and tiring journey to work?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Nigel R]

Well, that's that sorted then!

And I thought making it from solar panels was the answer.

I think the problem was actually solved about the same time electric cars were first made, i.e. Victorian era, where it was quickly realised a low level of motor power (and thus slow acceleration) resulted in very low total energy use. But then petrol took over and here we are.

"I don't see how I could manage without a decent sized IC car or possibly a hybrid, that will give me several hundred miles range, non stop at the drop of a hat and can tow a caravan for a couple of hundred miles, again non stop and can transport the models and paraphernalia that gets swallowed by my Mondeo Estate at present."

The ultimate answer is that lifestyle isn't going to be viable for ever, with present levels of cost and ease.

Maybe your small, light, slow electric car has to tow a trailer to cart large items about.

Maybe you have a large, expensive, (second?) car, and accept the high running cost.

[Don Fry]

Of course the concept of a an electric powered trailer, with its own battery would ease the problem. No need then for the slow box called a car to have spare weight and power for occasional use. But if we don't mend our ways over the use of energy, something will do it for us.

Usually depicted as 4 skinny blokes on horses, looking dramatic.

[Ben B]

That's the logical solution. I drive a big people carrier (Diesel). Most of the time it's just me driving so it's a complete waste most of the time but pays off for weekends away, trips to the dig store etc.

I'm currently looking at 100% electric cars and a medium car with a toe hook would work well. A caravan attached with a big generator in it could do the rest when needed. I can see quite a market for rentable trailers full of batteries for those occasions also.

[Ben B]

That's the logical solution. I drive a big people carrier (Diesel). Most of the time it's just me driving so it's a complete waste most of the time but pays off for weekends away, trips to the dig store etc.

I'm currently looking at 100% electric cars and a medium car with a toe hook would work well. A caravan attached with a big generator in it could do the rest when needed. I can see quite a market for rentable trailers full of batteries for those occasions also.

[Piers Bowlan]

Well, not electric cars but a new battery technology for planes;- Lithium Sulphur- and it's British you know! Here.

[Erfolg]

Just as the grid crashes, a week after the Eggbourough station goes of line. Carbon taxes apparently. A measely 1.9 Gw, wind power will make it up though, at a higher cost, even in a near gale, there is more than enough head room in the grid.

Oh, it is some other problem! Not cold enough? The wrong sort of wind? Ah, it did not happen, large parts of the country without power, never happened. It si just scare mongering by those who know nothing.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Keith Miles 2]

Yeh, just scare mongering.

The Midlands was affected, apparently. I live in the Midlands but was out at the time. Got home to find that the clock on the microwave hadn’t crashed so no power cut at my house.

Yeh, just scare mongering ‘cos I’m alright, Jack.