The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

[Michael Adams 3]

Hi Nigel, typical of all these sort of people who try to govern the country, pass the buck and let some one else sort it

when they know they cannot. My flying days are over now because I know for a fact that at 83 years young no way could I remember all the answers to those questions. I have had a bit of a total up and I recon I will be sending about £1,000.00 worth of planes and equipment to the land fill site, Can't go fishing as I can't walk so far along the bank with all of the equipment, what a life we do live.

Good luck to all who pass so as they can carry on with there sport and pass time.

Mike.

[Philip Lewis 3]

Posted by Michael Adams 3 on 05/11/2019 20:50:21:

My flying days are over now because I know for a fact that at 83 years young no way could I remember all the answers to those questions.

I just took the test, (even though I don't have to), it took me less than five minutes, you don't need to "remember" anything you can have all the answers right in front of you while you do it, they even guide you to do that, like all CAA exams it's "open book".

I'm sure there is life in the old dog yet! Give it a go, you have nothing at all to lose and it's free which is very rare today.

Edited By Philip Lewis 3 on 05/11/2019 21:04:46

[Jason-I]

Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 05/11/2019 19:48:21:

I must say whilst registering an (organisation) as an operator I didn't know whether to laugh or cry as I imagined the person responsible (as they call it) at Amazon et al laughing when considering the thousand or so drones they intend to put in the air being told they only need to pay a paltry mere £9.00 for the whole lot!

And what happened to the aim of taxing properly multinational corporations?

This is one of the fundamental issues I have with this scheme. It is a question I have raised with the DfT countless times and has never been answered. Also one of the reasons why I will only be registering as a pilot.

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Posted by Michael Adams 3 on 05/11/2019 20:50:21:

Hi Nigel, typical of all these sort of people who try to govern the country, pass the buck and let some one else sort it

when they know they cannot. My flying days are over now because I know for a fact that at 83 years young no way could I remember all the answers to those questions. I have had a bit of a total up and I recon I will be sending about £1,000.00 worth of planes and equipment to the land fill site, Can't go fishing as I can't walk so far along the bank with all of the equipment, what a life we do live.

Good luck to all who pass so as they can carry on with there sport and pass time.

Mike.

That would be a real shame Michael.

As I understand it the questions are quite easy and if you get any wrong they tell you the right answers and let you have another go. Have a look here **LINK**

Note also that for BMFA members there's no need to do anything until membership renewal.

At that point Members with existing acheivements will also be exempted from the requirement to take the CAA's online test. Those without an existing acheivement will be able to take the BMFA's own 'Registration Competency Certificate' as an alternative to the CAA test.

[Philip Lewis 3]

The questions aren't only easy but they are mainly pure common sense so a good case of obvious would get you a pass, I only looked up the answer to one question and still scored 19, I can't believe that the BMFA would be any easier and that the CAA would give their approval to it.

In fact I would say given a hour (the test tells you which answers you got wrong but only at the end where it tells you the right answer as well) it would be impossible to fail it.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Philip Lewis 3]

Posted by Steve J on 05/11/2019 21:56:30:

Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 05/11/2019 19:48:21:

You seem to have no idea as to the fees that the CAA charge commercial operators.

My point still stands, under this section all that any operator will be required to pay, no matter what, is £9.00.

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 05/11/2019 21:04:01:

Posted by Michael Adams 3 on 05/11/2019 20:50:21:

My flying days are over now because I know for a fact that at 83 years young no way could I remember all the answers to those questions.

I just took the test, (even though I don't have to), it took me less than five minutes, you don't need to "remember" anything you can have all the answers right in front of you while you do it, they even guide you to do that, like all CAA exams it's "open book".

I'm sure there is life in the old dog yet! Give it a go, you have nothing at all to lose and it's free which is very rare today.

Edited By Philip Lewis 3 on 05/11/2019 21:04:46

I need to take a test. Would prefer to do the BMFA one as I want to register through them but I can’t imagine the BMFA with their limited resources getting that up and running any time soon.

So looking at the CAA but have a question. Can you just do the test on its own without having to link it to an existing Operator ID.

I see the first step is to enter an email address. Is it that you enter that, do the test and then (on passing) a Flyer ID gets emailed to you.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by thunderstreak.keith on 05/11/2019 17:03:02:

its a pity they didnt attach a clause that along with the £9 ALL fliers MUST HAVE LIABILITY INSURANCE. Most of us sensibly do,foolish not to especially in my case of free flight mainly. christmas toy season looming, daddy pays the 9 quid and the kid passes the test. job done. christmas day kid goes flying and aircraft crashes and causes mega damage to something.(someone?) I also think any model supplier should have the same responsibility as a gun shop. licence first before sale

any thoughts? keith

Beware of what you wish for. BMFA manage to keep membership (which includes insurance) prices reasonable by virtue that in the main its members are responsible, flying safely, usually at club fields. So whilst we all have insurance should that unfortunate event ever arise very few of us have ever had cause to use it.

Make it compulsory to all those kids and and old kids that gets toys on Christmas day and then go out without any supervision or training and fly irresponsibly in inappropriate places then watch the cost of model insurance shoot through the roof. Then all us BMFA members who have done nothing wrong will find our membership fees hiking up each year.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 06/11/2019 07:20:26

[Nigel Heather]

I won’t dismiss the scheme in its entirety, I think it is a good idea to introduce some traceability and accountability.

My problem with it, is that like so many government schemes, it is half baked and unenforceable.

What I mean by that, is that the laws are present but they can’t be enforced because (i) the police don’t have sufficient manpower, (ii) the police have more important things to do or simply don’t have the inclination and (iii) the government doesn’t have the balls to enforce it properly.

An example of the latter, is that you have to have an Operator ID to own ‘drones’. So it follows that when you go into a shop to buy a drone you should have to provide your Operator ID - just like buying a car or firearm. As a minimum, you must show proof of age (like with buying alcohol or cigarettes) because you are not allowed to own a ‘drone’ if you are under the age of 18.

Not going to happen because the government doesn’t have the balls to interfere with retail and the legislation is so half baked you cannot enforce it anyway.

Cheers,

[ceejay]

I read this as I dont have to do the online stuff, having a BMFA B

taken from BMFA site, and I know LMA have issued similar info, so praps I am/will be on the data base twice

" where a UK model aircraft association already has an established and CAA reviewed ‘competency scheme’, members who hold an appropriate achievement certificate or award (such as the BMFA ‘A’ certificate) will also be exempt from having to undertake the online education training and test. "

cp

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by ceejay on 06/11/2019 09:02:27:

I read this as I dont have to do the online stuff, having a BMFA B

taken from BMFA site, and I know LMA have issued similar info, so praps I am/will be on the data base twice

" where a UK model aircraft association already has an established and CAA reviewed ‘competency scheme’, members who hold an appropriate achievement certificate or award (such as the BMFA ‘A’ certificate) will also be exempt from having to undertake the online education training and test. "

cp

That is my understanding. I suspect what will happen is that you will choose to register through LMA or BMFA - probably LMA as I hear they are covering the £9 for the first year at least. I guess which ever organisation you go with will then issue you with a Flyer ID and an Operator ID. You still have to have a Flyer ID, you just don’t have to do the test.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Dale Bradly]

To all those who won't take the test because they're too worried out getting it wrong, not knowing the right answers etc... Keep Calm and Carry On. This test is ridiculous. It took me about 2 mins, (maybe 1.5). I did not read the preamble blurb which no doubt contains the info one might wish to read. I'm not a BFMA member, and answered purely on common sense. Anyone who actually can fly can answer this and pass. Do not give up because of this nonsense.

P.S. I'm in New Zealand, so this has no relevance to me.* Just wanted to have a look at what it's all about. I can understand the upset about change, we here had some major changes to our our CAA rules a few years back which did not help with model flying popularity. Our politicians aren't much better than yours either.

*I'm now registered to fly in the UK!

This question annoyed me, because as the pilot, this has no relevance. All of these questions are possible responses from members of the public. why chose one? and moreso what the public think, on a question aimed at the pilot, is irrelevant. A very poorly written question.

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Dale Bradly on 06/11/2019 09:24:16:

To all those who won't take the test because they're too worried out getting it wrong, not knowing the right answers etc... Keep Calm and Carry On. This test is ridiculous. It took me about 2 mins, (maybe 1.5). I did not read the preamble blurb which no doubt contains the info one might wish to read. I'm not a BFMA member, and answered purely on common sense. Anyone who actually can fly can answer this and pass. Do not give up because of this nonsense.

P.S. I'm in New Zealand, so this has no relevance to me.* Just wanted to have a look at what it's all about. I can understand the upset about change, we here had some major changes to our our CAA rules a few years back which did not help with model flying popularity. Our politicians aren't much better than yours either.

*I'm now registered to fly in the UK!

 

This question annoyed me, because as the pilot, this has no relevance. All of these questions are possible responses from members of the public. why chose one? and moreso what the public think, on a question aimed at the pilot, is irrelevant. A very poorly written question.

Hi Dale,

I want to take the test but can’t get a simple question answered, even by the CAA Drone Registration helpline.

I just want to take the test on the CAA website and get a Flyer ID. Don’t have an Operator ID yet as I will do that from the BMFA. So I want to know that I can do the test on the CAA site and they will send me a Flyer ID without having to register as an operator or providing an Operator ID that I will link to.

.

So did you complete the test and if so did it end with the CAA giving you a Flyer ID?

 

And as for the question - it is things like this that annoy me.  Firstly it is irrelevant because I don't have cameras on my aircraft, don't intend to and only fly at the club field.  But that aside I understand its context in terms of what public think of as drones.

So I went to the CAA publication 'The Drone and Model Aircraft Code' which claims to contain all the information required to answer the questions in the test.  So the relevant 'Point' of the document for this question is 16 which says this

16. Respect other people and their privacy

If you use a camera with your drone or model aircraft, you must respect other people’s privacy when taking pictures or video.

If you take a video or photo of someone where they can expect privacy, such as inside their home or garden, you're likely to be breaking data protection laws.

It is against the law to take photographs or video for criminal or terrorist purposes.

If your drone or model aircraft has a camera, any photos or video you take may be covered by the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR).

 

Now I don't think that contains enough information to answer this question.  Let's take the question first

 

They see me using a camera.  How do they know I am using a camera.  How do they know what I am filming.  Does it matter if they see me filming something not related to them.  The question makes no distinction so I guess we must assume it means we are filming that person.

Okay taking the answers.

Can they demand to see what I have recorded.  Well it depends on the circumstances.  The only thing the Code says is that you should let people know when you start and stop recording.  The question does clarify whether this has been done.  It also says that if I have filmed them when they could normally expect privacy then I could be breaking data protection laws and if I include personal information I could be breaching GDPR.  In either case the person could instigate legal action which is likely to force me to disclose the film.  So Yes possibly, depending on the unstated circumstances.

Might they be worried - Yes, I suspect this is the correct answer

Can they demand payment - nothing specifically about that, but depending on circumstances and going back to option 1, if they bring legal action I may have to pay damages which is a form of payment. So Yes, possibly, depending on the unstated circumstances.

So assuming they are Radio Buttons, so only one correct answer, I'd have to say the second option is the correct one.  But I could easily argue all three being correct.

So badly worded question - but we should all be able to work them out.

 

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 06/11/2019 09:55:22

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Philip Lewis 3]

Nigel,

No you do not need or even link to an operator ID or the other way round.

Both pilot and operator are stand alone neither affecting the other.

[Don Fry]

Posted by Nigel Heather on 06/11/2019 08:21:41:

I won’t dismiss the scheme in its entirety, I think it is a good idea to introduce some traceability and accountability.

My problem with it, is that like so many government schemes, it is half baked and unenforceable.

What I mean by that, is that the laws are present but they can’t be enforced because (i) the police don’t have sufficient manpower, (ii) the police have more important things to do or simply don’t have the inclination and (iii) the government doesn’t have the balls to enforce it properly.

An example of the latter, is that you have to have an Operator ID to own ‘drones’. So it follows that when you go into a shop to buy a drone you should have to provide your Operator ID - just like buying a car or firearm. As a minimum, you must show proof of age (like with buying alcohol or cigarettes) because you are not allowed to own a ‘drone’ if you are under the age of 18.

Not going to happen because the government doesn’t have the balls to interfere with retail and the legislation is so half baked you cannot enforce it anyway

Nigel, 18 is the age you can register as an operator. Any one can own one or buy one. And indeed I, as a foreign resident, having  no intention of registering aircraft in the U.K., would be forbidden to buy one in the UK for export to country of use.

 

Edited By Don Fry on 06/11/2019 10:40:15

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 06/11/2019 10:16:22:

Nigel,

No you do not need or even link to an operator ID or the other way round.

Both pilot and operator are stand alone neither affecting the other.

It does look like that. I would have thought they would have wanted to maintain some link even if it is a one to many relationship.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Nigel Heather on 06/11/2019 10:48:48:

Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 06/11/2019 10:16:22:

Nigel,

No you do not need or even link to an operator ID or the other way round.

Both pilot and operator are stand alone neither affecting the other.

It does look like that. I would have thought they would have wanted to maintain some link even if it is a one to many relationship.

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Nigel

Why? A pilot doesn't need to own any models, and an owner/operator need not fly his models. There are plenty of builders who like to watch others fly their models and I've known the odd flyer who only flies models belonging to the club or someone they're training. These relationships are not fixed and would require constant updating - what happens if someone asks the club expert to maiden their new model, would that require establishing a new relationship before the flight?

[kc]

Lots of thought provoking discussion -

-however to the basic facts of the regulations which come into effect 30th November. It seems we have to put our registration number in or on the model- have we been told to put our BMFA number ( if you have an A or B certificate ) on as this number by 30th Nov? Or will we be issued with a differnt number for this purpose?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Don Fry]

Is the CAA flier test system working?

I've found it. Put my correct email address in, and the promised code to proceed has not arrived in any of my e mail files. Have internet access, email system has been working all day, and I've rebooted.

[Cliff 1959]

Posted by Don Fry on 06/11/2019 11:23:24:

Is the CAA flier test system working?

I've found it. Put my correct email address in, and the promised code to proceed has not arrived in any of my e mail files. Have internet access, email system has been working all day, and I've rebooted.

Worked fine for me, the email arrived instantly.

[Cuban8]

I think that my last post's much later edit got lost in subsequent discussions.

Essentially, The CAA's records will simply register the number of operators and pilots but not what type of UAVs that they own or fly. I can see a situation where because we're all good citizens and have done as we're told, the number of F/W models, helis & autogyros may well exceed quite comfortably, the number of drones available to those drone flyers who have registered and payed up.

If this is what does turn out to be true and as we expect, the recreational drone craze dies away over the next few years, what's left will be effectively a 'model aircraft registration scheme' - and for what purpose?.......does this not worry anyone given that we were never the problem in the first place? At what point will the authorities admit that there are so few recreational drones actually being flown that the DRES has ceased to be fit for purpose.

Apologies for labouring the point, but I think it's important to discuss it.

Edited By Cuban8 on 06/11/2019 11:36:01

[Supersavage]

I've done the test and passed and now have a flyer id and operater id.