The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

[Jason-I]

Just had a brainwave. Why not scrap the whole operator registration system, and just make a law that states:

"all UAV's should have the owners name and contact details on them"

No need for an overpriced CAA database of names and contact details then. No need for a dedicated CAA call handling team so the police can relate an operator number to an actual person. No need for a drones reunited hotline. All the information the police could possibly need would be right there printed on the model!

[Jason-I]

Posted by john stones 1 on 08/11/2019 21:30:46:

Posted by Jason-I on 08/11/2019 21:24:41:

The registration number is so they can track us down if we carry out criminal activities with our model aircraft. Why would anybody want to put that number anywhere on constant view such that real criminals can copy the number and then use it on their own gatwick attack drones?

Anyway, I've already cut out the middle man. Instead of using a dumb number that the police have to look up on a database to find out who it belong to, I've just written my name and phone number on the inside of all my models.. Who would have thought such a simple solution exists.

If someone knows you and your address/phone number, they could use your details when committing a crime.

Hence the reason it's on the INSIDE!

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by RC Plane Flyer on 08/11/2019 20:52:20:

I am of the opinion that the numbers should go inside your model to give you a bit more confidence that you/we took the CAA test, paid our fee and gained our numbers, so little chance of the numbers being seen by other eyes and taking advantage of our work to follow the CAA Guide lines

Good point - a quick look at a registered model with it's number clearly visible on the outside would allow criminals and / or cheapskates to get a genuine number on their model / remote controlled intercontinental ballistic missile, with no traceability back to them.

Huston - we have a problem.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Jason-I on 08/11/2019 21:37:30:

Posted by john stones 1 on 08/11/2019 21:30:46:

Posted by Jason-I on 08/11/2019 21:24:41:

The registration number is so they can track us down if we carry out criminal activities with our model aircraft. Why would anybody want to put that number anywhere on constant view such that real criminals can copy the number and then use it on their own gatwick attack drones?

Anyway, I've already cut out the middle man. Instead of using a dumb number that the police have to look up on a database to find out who it belong to, I've just written my name and phone number on the inside of all my models.. Who would have thought such a simple solution exists.

If someone knows you and your address/phone number, they could use your details when committing a crime.

Hence the reason it's on the INSIDE!

What if someone who knows you, goes rogue and uses your details on the INSIDE of their drone to commit a crime ? it's a jungle out there, can't be too careful you know.

[Gary Manuel]

Someone in another thread just got their wrist slapped for talking about Operator ID labelling in the wrong place, so I'll make a suggestion here.

How about a nice scarf for your scale pilot?

[Jason-I]

Posted by john stones 1 on 08/11/2019 21:54:25:

What if someone who knows you, goes rogue and uses your details on the INSIDE of their drone to commit a crime ? it's a jungle out there, can't be too careful you know.

Your right. Nothing for it but to jack it all in and flog all my models.....

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Jason-I on 08/11/2019 22:16:23:

Posted by john stones 1 on 08/11/2019 21:54:25:

What if someone who knows you, goes rogue and uses your details on the INSIDE of their drone to commit a crime ? it's a jungle out there, can't be too careful you know.

Your right. Nothing for it but to jack it all in and flog all my models.....

Nah, carry on doing something you enjoy.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[leccyflyer]

**LINK**

 

From the BMFA this morning - a simpler guide to what you need to do.

Edited By leccyflyer on 09/11/2019 08:59:30

[Ron Gray]

So the insurance side of things is still not clear! If you act unlawfully your insurance ‘could’ be affected but BLMA affiliated clubs will still be covered. Don’t like the word ‘could’ surely it is either valid or invalid?

Also no mention of all change (probably) next June or the fact that CAA test exemption only applies up to next June.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[leccyflyer]

The insurance side of things seems clear enough. Why would one take the risk that one's insurance could be invalidated by operating illegally. Honestly the whole insurance thing is a red herring. There's no legal requirement to have insurance for non-commercial model flying under 20kg, that's an individual's choice. There is however a legal requirement to operate legally under the new regulations, irrespective of anything to do with insurance.

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Steve J on 08/11/2019 19:50:04:

Posted by Martin Harris on 08/11/2019 19:28:25:

Steve's words were:

"... we will be updating the service with the following:"

Ms. Chew's words in fact . I am surprised that nobody has notice the obvious problem with the new text, it will always be possible to put the number on the outside.

This is what I picked up on - forget discussion about tools, this word is the crux.

If the CAA’s proposed wording goes through, only a tiny minority will be able to puts labels inside whilst complying 100% with the legislation. There will only be a tiny number of models that are above 250g where a label cannot be affixed to the outside. I’m really struggling to think of any, all I can come up is the smaller skeleton framed racing quads.

For 99.99% of models it is possible to attach a label on the outside.

So we have to wait and see if the BMFA can deflect the wording change on 14th November.

Changing subjects. I perceive a big hole in the legislation. To own a ‘drone’ you must have an Operator ID. So it should be a mandatory requirement to present it when purchasing a drone - just like you have to do when purchasing a car or a firearm. To my knowledge, this isn’t being done and there are no plans to do it.

I imagine if the CAA tried this they would get a lot of opposition. Even if the reputable stores complied I’d love to see the CAA trying to chase down Chinese sellers on the internet.

Cheers,

Nigel

[bert baker]

 

What if someone who knows you, goes rogue and uses your details on the INSIDE of their drone to commit a crime ? it's a jungle out there, can't be too careful you know.

Hmm perhaps I should take the number plates off my car

Edited By bert baker on 09/11/2019 10:22:14

[bert baker]

Hat and coat at the ready for the naughty step

[Ron Gray]

@SteveJ - it’s a shame that the guide published by the BLMA as per leccyflyer’s link above doesn’t give the notice about exemptions only applying until June 2020

@Leccyflyer - nothing clear about the word ‘could’. There are a lot of people who resent having to register but still want insurance!

[Michael Adams 3]

Hi every one why don't you do as I have, passed the CAA test, will pay my subscription to the BMFA.

Then when the weather permits go flying with no problems, The CAA will do what they will & you will not be able

to do any thing about it but comply.

So easy to do.

Mike.

[Old Geezer]

Can't think of any club would be welcome you to fly with them if you were uninsured - and unless you have nothing that could be taken off you ( see: Man of Straw ) if you became subject to a civil claim for damages as a result of any of your model flying or associated activities, and you're not insured, you're going to be comprehensively stuffed. All for getting snotty over Nine Quid A Year. Get real and grow up everybody - we're about building and flying our planes (Models to most folk, Toys to those we upset.) not making a principled  stand in a scrap you can't win.

See: Episode 1 of The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy -- Arthur Dent v The Bulldozer. How much damage will the bulldozer sustain if it runs over Arthur Dent? I rest my case.

Edited By Old Geezer on 09/11/2019 10:39:01

[Nigel Heather]

I was in two minds whether to register as an operator directly with the BMFA. Recently I’ve been leaning towards the direct approach with the CAA as it will be quicker and less palaver, but I’ve just had a thought.

Not that it will do any good (as the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy analogy above) but I think we should all register through our respective associations.

That way will will be able to gauge just how many registrations there actually are and more importantly what percentage of those are from flying clubs. Though I suspect the CAA won’t be prepared to share that info if it turns out anything like I suspect.

 

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 09/11/2019 11:00:09

[Bob Cotsford]

If you want insurance without registering then it's simple enough. Go to any reputable insurance broker and tell them exactly what you want, I'm sure someone somewhere will take your money off you. Might be a few who start raising their eyebrows when you specify that you intend flying without taking the legally required step of registering with the CAA.

What is 'possible'? You could argue that putting the reg externally on a scale model is not possible as it destroys the scale finish and causes you extreme anxiety. Are you really going to find yourself in court over the definition of the word 'possible' if you have the reg under a hatch somewhere? I think the courts have bigger fish to fry.

Q. Would there be less debate and nitpicking if this had occured during the height of the flying season?

Answers on a postcard please.

[Jason-I]

Posted by Nigel Heather on 09/11/2019 10:13:22:

 

.....To own a ‘drone’ you must have an Operator ID. So it should be a mandatory requirement to present it when purchasing a drone - just like you have to do when purchasing a car.....

Nigel

I have seen this a few times now. You do not need a license to buy a car! You only need a license if you intend to drive said car home.

You should not need an operator license to buy a drone. That is ridiculous. You may be buying the drone as a present for somebody else. You may be buying the drone to use exclusively indoors. You may be buying the drone as a static display model. You may be buying the drone for spare parts. Lots of reasons why you could be buying the drone without needing a operator ID.

 

EDIT: The law does not say that you need an operator ID to own a drone. It says the following:

'The new regulations apply to drones and model aircraft from 250g to 20kg that are used outdoors'

Key words being used AND outdoors

 

Edited By Jason-I on 09/11/2019 11:29:30

[Gary Manuel]

The question about insurance is not about getting snotty. It's about how far the club administrators need to go in order to protect the club. If we know that our members are insured whether they have complied with the registration requirements or not, then the club has nothing to worry about. If on the other hand, the insurance is invalid if they have not registered, then the club may need to do more policing.

[Jason-I]

Posted by Old Geezer on 09/11/2019 10:37:51:

.... not making a principled stand in a scrap you can't win.....

If people did not stand up for their principals (and put their lives on the line for said principals), then the world as we know it would not be the world as we know it......

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by Steve J on 09/11/2019 09:11:56:

A couple of quotes from CAP1804:

"the CAA will offer BMFA, Large Model Association (LMA), Scottish Aeromodellers Association (SAA), FPV UK and ARPAS-UK two bulk uploads of members’ details to fulfil the operator registration requirement before June 2020. The first bulk upload will be at the end of January 2020 and the second will be in mid-April 2020."

This raises a question in my mind.

If the first bulk upload of data isn't until the end of January, when will we receive our Operator ID numbers? It doesn't leave any / much time for us to purchase / make / fix / hand write our Operator ID's onto our models before the exemption runs out on 31st January. Or am I getting confused with the exemption dates?

[Ron Gray]

@Gary - the BLMA have made it clear that affiliated clubs will still be covered by insurance even if a member isn’t (by that I take to mean that an individual flies without registering).

I registered directly with the CAA and by doing so didn’t go down the exemption route. At least that way I am registered for a year, not just until June. Nit picking, maybe, but I prefer it that way as I have control rather than putting that onus onto the BLMA. The CAA registration is a doddle and was completed within 20 mins.