The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by leccyflyer on 09/11/2019 08:58:57:

**LINK**

From the BMFA this morning - a simpler guide to what you need to do.

Edited By leccyflyer on 09/11/2019 08:59:30

Any one know what the difference between the website in leccyflyer's link above and THIS one is?

Are BMFA running 2 sites?

[Michael Adams 3]

Can some one explain to me who the BLMA is

Mike.

[Peter Christy]

Posted by Nigel Heather on 09/11/2019 10:59:25:

I was in two minds whether to register as an operator directly with the BMFA. Recently I’ve been leaning towards the direct approach with the CAA as it will be quicker and less palaver, but I’ve just had a thought.

Not that it will do any good (as the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy analogy above) but I think we should all register through our respective associations.

That way will will be able to gauge just how many registrations there actually are and more importantly what percentage of those are from flying clubs. Though I suspect the CAA won’t be prepared to share that info if it turns out anything like I suspect.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 09/11/2019 11:00:09

Nigel makes a very good point here. If you register via the CAA, they will have no idea if you are a "drone" flyer, or a model aircraft flyer. If you register via the BMFA (or one of the other associations), it should be a simple matter to determine what percentage of registrations are independent drone operators compared to model flyers.

If the vast majority of registrations are for model flyers - association members, whom the CAA admit are not a problem - then the scheme can be shown to have failed in its intended purpose quite quickly, and to the benefit of us all.

I will be registering via the BMFA, and will be recommending that our club members do the same.

--

Pete

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by Gary Manuel on 09/11/2019 11:12:46:

The question about insurance is not about getting snotty. It's about how far the club administrators need to go in order to protect the club. If we know that our members are insured whether they have complied with the registration requirements or not, then the club has nothing to worry about. If on the other hand, the insurance is invalid if they have not registered, then the club may need to do more policing.

It looks like BMFA have answered my question HERE. The second paragraph should avoid the need for clubs to inspect every model to ensure that it is correctly labelled, which was my main concern.

They say:

Insurance cover can only be fully assured for ‘lawful activities’ and if you do not comply (if required by law) then you will be operating unlawfully, and your insurance cover could be in question in the event of a claim. It is also important to note that any legal costs and/or punitive financial sanctions incurred by an individual member under criminal law as a result of non-compliance will be outside the scope of cover.

The BMFA’s affiliated clubs will remain fully protected by the BMFA’s insurance in the event of a claim made against them, should individual members be found to be non-compliant.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Gary Manuel on 09/11/2019 11:42:11:

Posted by leccyflyer on 09/11/2019 08:58:57:

**LINK**

From the BMFA this morning - a simpler guide to what you need to do.

Edited By leccyflyer on 09/11/2019 08:59:30

Any one know what the difference between the website in leccyflyer's link above and THIS one is?

Are BMFA running 2 sites?

The BMFA running quite a few sites, we just thought a one stop site for registration info, the exemptions, lawful operation would be easier for members to find and digest what they need to know would be useful.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Gary Manuel]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 09/11/2019 12:12:39:

The BMFA running quite a few sites, we just thought a one stop site for registration info, the exemptions, lawful operation would be easier for members to find and digest what they need to know would be useful.

Thanks Andy.

Makes sense because it is a rather complicated area with so many documents and publications out there.

[Michael Adams 3]

Hi Steve, if you knew what you were doing you would do as a lot of us did, answer the questions correctly and get your numbers, I got mine last week and have printed them out, now all I have to do is put them into my planes and gliders. I just do not know what all the fuss is about, it is so simple to do. why do a lot of you keep complaining, just do what you have to do and get on with it. I am now going to cancel the thread as it is so pathetic to read.

Mike.

[Gary Manuel]

Mike.

Not sure whether you'll read this before you "cancel the thread", but here goes.

A lot of us are pushing this so hard because we are on club committees etc and feel responsible for anything that may put our club at risk. I for one have no issues about the process - I have already answered the questions (and passed) even though I already have a BMFA "A" cert. I will probably get my Operator ID through the BMFA because I think there may be advantages to doing it this way.

Some of our members are not computer / internet savvy and would have difficulty with the process. We need to think about them and give them any help they need. We also need to be aware that some members may take exception to the registration process and refuse to play ball. We need to make sure that they do not drag the club down with them if they finish up in court.

This is not pathetic as you describe it, although you may find it so if you are just looking at it from your own point of view. Try thinking about it from a club committee point of view.

Edited By Gary Manuel on 09/11/2019 12:51:24

[Nigel Heather]

Posted by Jason-I on 09/11/2019 11:09:22:

Posted by Nigel Heather on 09/11/2019 10:13:22:

.....To own a ‘drone’ you must have an Operator ID. So it should be a mandatory requirement to present it when purchasing a drone - just like you have to do when purchasing a car.....

Nigel

I have seen this a few times now. You do not need a license to buy a car! You only need a license if you intend to drive said car home.

You should not need an operator license to buy a drone. That is ridiculous. You may be buying the drone as a present for somebody else. You may be buying the drone to use exclusively indoors. You may be buying the drone as a static display model. You may be buying the drone for spare parts. Lots of reasons why you could be buying the drone without needing a operator ID.

EDIT: The law does not say that you need an operator ID to own a drone. It says the following:

'The new regulations apply to drones and model aircraft from 250g to 20kg that are used outdoors'

Key words being used AND outdoors

Edited By Jason-I on 09/11/2019 11:29:30

You clearly have never bought a new car or a used car from a reputable dealer.

The reality is that they won't let you test drive or drive it off the courtyard without seeing that it is registered and insured.

Try buying a new car without a licence and you won't be able to take it away. Sure you could buy it on behalf of someone else but ultimately they will want to see the details of whoever drives it away.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Jason-I]

Posted by Nigel Heather on 09/11/2019 12:59:37:

Posted by Jason-I on 09/11/2019 11:09:22:

Posted by Nigel Heather on 09/11/2019 10:13:22:

.....To own a ‘drone’ you must have an Operator ID. So it should be a mandatory requirement to present it when purchasing a drone - just like you have to do when purchasing a car.....

Nigel

I have seen this a few times now. You do not need a license to buy a car! You only need a license if you intend to drive said car home.

You should not need an operator license to buy a drone. That is ridiculous. You may be buying the drone as a present for somebody else. You may be buying the drone to use exclusively indoors. You may be buying the drone as a static display model. You may be buying the drone for spare parts. Lots of reasons why you could be buying the drone without needing a operator ID.

EDIT: The law does not say that you need an operator ID to own a drone. It says the following:

'The new regulations apply to drones and model aircraft from 250g to 20kg that are used outdoors'

 

You clearly have never bought a new car or a used car from a reputable dealer.

The reality is that they won't let you test drive or drive it off the courtyard without seeing that it is registered and insured.

Try buying a new car without a licence and you won't be able to take it away. Sure you could buy it on behalf of someone else but ultimately they will want to see the details of whoever drives it away.

Nigel

Casting aspersions on where I buy cars from is just nonsense. You DO NOT need a license to buy a car. I quite clearly stated that you do need a license to drive that car (on public land). However, you can perfectly legally drive it without a license on private land. You can buy a brand new car without a license and have somebody else drive it away, or have it delivered, or have it taken away on a trailer. There is no law requiring a license to buy a car.

Comparing this to buying a drone is also nonsense. You do not need to fly the drone home and there are lots of reasons you could be buying a drone that do not require a license.

 

Edited By Jason-I on 09/11/2019 13:21:59

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Jason-I]

Posted by Steve J on 09/11/2019 13:20:36:

I did the CAA test before you did. I haven't registered because I'm a Yorkshireman and I don't see the point in giving the CAA £9 two months before I have to.

I really don't understand why any BMFA members are paying for registration 2 months early either.....

[Ron Gray]

@Michael - BLMA, amalgam of BMFA and LMA ( actually it’s not, it was a typo).

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Ron Gray on 09/11/2019 10:24:07:

@SteveJ - it’s a shame that the guide published by the BLMA as per leccyflyer’s link above doesn’t give the notice about exemptions only applying until June 2020

@Leccyflyer - nothing clear about the word ‘could’. There are a lot of people who resent having to register but still want insurance!

They can resent having to register all they want. They can moan and complain and whinge about it, but ultimately if they don;t register and continue to fly they will be doing so illegally.

As regards the insurance the use of the word "could" ought to make it quite clear that by not complying with the registration requirements there is an entirely unnecessary risk to one's insurance coverage. That ought to be clear enough for anyone.

[Martin_K]

Posted by Peter Christy on 09/11/2019 11:47:56

Nigel makes a very good point here. If you register via the CAA, they will have no idea if you are a "drone" flyer, or a model aircraft flyer. If you register via the BMFA (or one of the other associations), it should be a simple matter to determine what percentage of registrations are independent drone operators compared to model flyers.

If the vast majority of registrations are for model flyers - association members, whom the CAA admit are not a problem - then the scheme can be shown to have failed in its intended purpose quite quickly, and to the benefit of us all.

I will be registering via the BMFA, and will be recommending that our club members do the same.

--

Pete

 

Pete,

This is the first sentence from the home page on rcc.bmfa.uk;

"This website is for members of the British Model Flying Association,
the premier UK association for those that operate and fly model
aircraft and drones."

Don't forget that the BMFA wants to represent 'drone' pilots too.

For calculations, total number registered with CAA, minus combined membership of associations, will equal? I'm not certain what. (edit - Not certain what that number would represent).

The first interesting point will be when/if that number changes from negative to positive.

Edited By Martin_K on 09/11/2019 13:47:12

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

You need a hobby lads.

[Peter Christy]

Well, there's the stated purpose and the intended purpose, and as with most government schemes, its often difficult to distinguish if the two are the same!

My point is that if the vast bulk of registrations come from the associations, it will raise the question of why the DfT / CAAis bothering at all, as it will just be a duplication of effort.

I believe we may be in danger of undermining the negotiating power of our associations if too many members register directly with the CAA.

--

Pete

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Peter Christy on 09/11/2019 14:22:41:

Well, there's the stated purpose and the intended purpose, and as with most government schemes, its often difficult to distinguish if the two are the same!

My point is that if the vast bulk of registrations come from the associations, it will raise the question of why the DfT / CAAis bothering at all, as it will just be a duplication of effort.

I believe we may be in danger of undermining the negotiating power of our associations if too many members register directly with the CAA.

--

Pete

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ron Gray]

I'm with Steve on this one, the CAA know who the BMFA represent in terms of numbers therefore how many register through the BMFA and who register director has no relevance. But in a perverse way in may help if more register direct as the CAA do know our BMFA numbers so they will not know how many haven't registered if we do go direct to the CAA. Think of it another way, if the only way that you could register was through the BMFA then the CAA would definitely know the numbers of those who haven't registered which may make them take some form of action.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Ron Gray on 09/11/2019 15:40:02:

I'm with Steve on this one, the CAA know who the BMFA represent in terms of numbers therefore how many register through the BMFA and who register director has no relevance. But in a perverse way in may help if more register direct as the CAA do know our BMFA numbers so they will not know how many haven't registered if we do go direct to the CAA. Think of it another way, if the only way that you could register was through the BMFA then the CAA would definitely know the numbers of those who haven't registered which may make them take some form of action.

There are a significant number of BMFA members who will not need to register as they only fly aircraft that are exempt so the CAA don't really have any idea on any numbers.

However registering via the BMFA will go some way to show the CAA (and DfT) that perhaps they should perhaps consider delegated powers to those that have much more of an idea about what we do.

[Keith Berriman]

So having looked at sticking my Dymo Label on the inside of my models it  is not going to be that simple. So I have opted to stick the labels on the outside my options is same place on all models ( **** *** **** )

Edited By RC Plane Flyer on 09/11/2019 18:53:03

[Ron Gray]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 09/11/2019 18:41:09:

There are a significant number of BMFA members who will not need to register as they only fly aircraft that are exempt so the CAA don't really have any idea on any numbers.

Really? I’m surprised that a significant number fly c/l or models less than 250g

However registering via the BMFA will go some way to show the CAA (and DfT) that perhaps they should perhaps consider delegated powers to those that have much more of an idea about what we do.

Haven’t we already missed the boat on that one?