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The Gov't, CAA, BMFA & UAV legislation thread


Nigel R
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Gents, it's sad to see that the subject has reached the stage where forumites are sniping and bitching at each other here, when modellers throughout Europe and further afield have been presented with a fait accompli, despite the best efforts of the various national bodies to make the 'best of a bad deal' for their members. I think we're really just collateral damage in a wave of populism in the political world.

Putting it into perspective, I suspect there's a lot more of consequence in our lives coming down the road towards us.....face 4

Pete

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Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 22/11/2019 17:31:21:

Gents, it's sad to see that the subject has reached the stage where forumites are sniping and bitching at each other here, when modellers throughout Europe and further afield have been presented with a fait accompli, despite the best efforts of the various national bodies to make the 'best of a bad deal' for their members. I think we're really just collateral damage in a wave of populism in the political world.

Putting it into perspective, I suspect there's a lot more of consequence in our lives coming down the road towards us.....face 4

Pete

I heard a rumour the free Fantasy F1 might be coming to an end. question

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Changing the subject a little.

I’m not into what the public thinks of drones so don’t know that much about them and not up to speed with the latest technology. But I do regularly visit a technology forums which has an active drone section where most of the content is about DJI products.

Today I learned about the new DJI Mavic Mini, a fully capable quadcopter with an all up weight of 249g and DJI makes no secret that this is a deliberate design to avoid the need for registration. This thing has a camera allowing it to be flown FPV using a mobile phone at distances of 4km and at height well above 120m.

I expect that this is the first of many as more manufacturers bring out regulation busting aircraft.

What do you guys think?

Personally, for me it brings into question why there is a threshold. Is a 250g aircraft flying above 120m any less of a hazard.

I wonder whether the CAA naively imagined that the sub-250g aircraft were toys with limited performance and capability flown indoors or in back gardens. I doubt they were imagining the likes of DJI Mavic Mini.

Appreciate that they still need to be flown within the code, but will they really.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 22/11/2019 18:19:26

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Posted by Pete B - Moderator on 22/11/2019 17:31:21:

Gents, it's sad to see that the subject has reached the stage where forumites are sniping and bitching at each other here, when modellers throughout Europe and further afield have been presented with a fait accompli, despite the best efforts of the various national bodies to make the 'best of a bad deal' for their members. I think we're really just collateral damage in a wave of populism in the political world.

Putting it into perspective, I suspect there's a lot more of consequence in our lives coming down the road towards us.....face 4

Pete

It also saddens me that a bunch of guys and ladies (I assume) who have a love of model making/flying are getting so wound up and using this forum to have a go at each other.

To me it's simple, you can't escape the fact that a law has been made. You either legally comply or you don't. If you do, you have a choice of either the CAA route or if a member of the BMFA go that route. And for (in the scheme of things with regard to the cost of doing the hobby in the first place) £9 and the test you can continue to fly legally. WE EACH MAKE OUR OWN MIND UP, there is no need to whine and have a go at each other about it at all. Being a BMFA member I have followed their suggestions and waited until updates on what is heppening and when it is happening are announced.

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Posted by Steve J on 22/11/2019 18:27:50:
Posted by Nigel Heather on 22/11/2019 18:17:55:

What do you guys think?

That the Mavic Mini only avoids registration until the 1st July next year.

PS I find the fact the DJI seem to have decided to become an early adopter of the ASTM UAS remote identification standard much more interesting .

Edited By Steve J on 22/11/2019 18:29:49

What happens on 1st July next year? I know the EASA regulations come into play, but what specifically do they do that means that Mavic Mini pilots will have to register?

 

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 22/11/2019 18:53:30

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Posted by Nigel Heather on 22/11/2019 18:17:55:

Changing the subject a little.

I’m not into what the public thinks of drones so don’t know that much about them and not up to speed with the latest technology. But I do regularly visit a technology forums which has an active drone section where most of the content is about DJI products.

Today I learned about the new DJI Mavic Mini, a fully capable quadcopter with an all up weight of 249g and DJI makes no secret that this is a deliberate design to avoid the need for registration. This thing has a camera allowing it to be flown FPV using a mobile phone at distances of 4km and at height well above 120m.

I expect that this is the first of many as more manufacturers bring out regulation busting aircraft.

What do you guys think?

Personally, for me it brings into question why there is a threshold. Is a 250g aircraft flying above 120m any less of a hazard.

I wonder whether the CAA naively imagined that the sub-250g aircraft were toys with limited performance and capability flown indoors or in back gardens. I doubt they were imagining the likes of DJI Mavic Mini.

Appreciate that they still need to be flown within the code, but will they really.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 22/11/2019 18:19:26

From the FAQ section it looks like it is height limited etc

a. During flight training, the altitude will be limited to 30 m, and the flight distance will be limited to 50 m.
b. When flying while not logged into a DJI account, the flight altitude will be limited to 30 m, and the flight distance will be limited to 50 m.
c. Flight altitude and distance limits can be set manually in the DJI Fly app.
d. When GPS signal is weak, the flight altitude of the aircraft will be limited.
e. When the aircraft is flying near a restricted flight zone, or in a GEO Zone with altitude limits.
For more information, please contact DJI SUPPORT.

​​​​​​​

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Posted by Frank Skilbeck on 22/11/2019 18:43:26

From the FAQ section it looks like it is height limited etc

a. During flight training, the altitude will be limited to 30 m, and the flight distance will be limited to 50 m.
b. When flying while not logged into a DJI account, the flight altitude will be limited to 30 m, and the flight distance will be limited to 50 m.
c. Flight altitude and distance limits can be set manually in the DJI Fly app.
d. When GPS signal is weak, the flight altitude of the aircraft will be limited.
e. When the aircraft is flying near a restricted flight zone, or in a GEO Zone with altitude limits.
For more information, please contact DJI SUPPORT.

Thanks for the info, very useful.

This forum needs some agree/like/useful buttons.

Cheers,

Nigel

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Posted by Steve J on 22/11/2019 18:56:05:
Posted by Nigel Heather on 22/11/2019 18:43:10:

Posted by Steve J on 22/11/2019 18:27:50:

That the Mavic Mini only avoids registration until the 1st July next year.

What happens on 1st July next year?

A completely over the top bureaucratic monster raises its ugly head.

Edited By Steve J on 22/11/2019 19:08:28


Wow just had a skim.  Potentially puts an end to build from plans or home designs when you have to know the precise energy the aircraft will impart if it hits someone in the head.

I also wonder how much real world experience of model aircraft the authors have, especially when you read things like

when its ‘low speed mode’ is selected
 

what on earth is one of those.

 

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited By Nigel Heather on 22/11/2019 19:30:29

Edited By Nigel Heather on 22/11/2019 19:31:46

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Interestingly, I attended a meeting with the Safer Neighbourhood Police Team for Mid Suffolk this morning as part of my role as a councillor and I asked how the policing of the new CAA regs would be handled. The comments I received were as follows:-

The police are aware of the the new laws, but no direction from higher management as to how to deal with it at local level has been forthcoming. Therefore not a priority at the moment. The comment from the inspector was that as far as drones are concerned that as sometimes the operator and drone are too far away from each other to apprehend the culprit, law enforcement can't be upheld. The exception is if it occurs near a forbidden zone such as airports. The police are more likely to be reactive rather than proactive.

Furthermore, there is a long list of police priorities ahead of this issue at the moment such as county lines drugs, seasonal thieving with cash, goods, tools all a target in particular, as there are no bank branches these days and consequently cash availability is limited unless it is from shop premises. That's before drunken/drug driving, contraband fags, booze and toys, vehicle speeding are included. Therefore anytime soon this issue it's not on the police radar.

This is just snapshot of Suffolk's response, but it tells you all you need to know for the moment.

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Steve, I can read tedious stuff. Have you read that to the end?

I went back to the aims page a couple of times, and mentally died in the text.

I did note at one point, as a registered French UAV operator, I can't register in the UK, but the UK says my aircraft need a UK registration number.

A logic bomb in progress. Similar to " no specialist tool" morphing to "no tool".

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I have said before and I will say it again, this is a "we must be seen to be doing something law". I think that like most other laws the responsible law abiding will comply with it. Those with ill intent will ignore it. I am pretty sure that someone wanting to cause a bit of trouble with a quadcopter will hardly be putting a number on it so it can be traced back to them. I visited a large shopping mall recently where one of them was stocked with a variety of drones. I asked the retailer if he was informing purchasers of the new regulations.Even he wasnt aware of them.

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My aircraft registration code starts with UAS-FR -the specific number of the aircraft. A clue as to origin.

No interest in France at this time.

Edit. Here each aircraft has a unique number. When registered, it's max weight, and if it carries a camera is entered on the system.

Edited By Don Fry on 22/11/2019 20:36:37

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My opinion,

Just do it ,for the sake of £9 and simple enough test, do it.

The police will not bother law abiding clubs or free flyers.

Only those people who fly near airports ,in towns /cities. or public events and parks.

the police have better things to do catching criminals .

Kelvin thumbs upsmiley.

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CAP 1789 mentioned/ linked above gives provision for model associations to negotiate a separate authorisation with the CAA (see "Model Aircraft" on page 10 of the document)

Also Article 16 on page 19 words to the effect that the traditional model enthusiast.......... avenue for....... operating as they currently do....... under the umbrella of the model associations..... without other restrictions... that are aimed at 'drones'

All this is up for negotiation with CAA - clearly BMFA are going to be very busy still fighting our corner.

A couple of important points - we need relaxation on distances to uninvolved people and property - essential to carry on as we do now.

But there will be no more dummy bomb drops or toffee bombers - not allowed

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Maybe I missed something. But the most awkward bit in there for us is the 150m from housing rule. On this front I would anticipate the BMFA to lobby for continuity with the existing arrangement of 50m with our height exemption.

Everything else simply puts us in open category class A3 I think.

Our game aside this has the framework for certification of devices that could be used to overly cities. Which would not be a bad thing.

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I was following the BMFA flowchart produced earlier in this thread and intended doing nothing until renewing my membership online following the AGM. However it occurred to me that as an occasional drone user and aerial photographer- less than half a dozen flights on the past three years - decided that it would be appropriate in my case to take the online test. So as to have that in place after 30th November, have just taken the BMFA online test and uploaded the certificate the the BMFA membership portal. All very straightforward and simple. I'll register and pay the fee via the BMFA also, when the portal goes live for renewals.

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Posted by Michael Adams 3 on 23/11/2019 11:11:46:

HI every one, this morning I have heard that Amazon are now going to use Drones to deliver their goods,

I wonder how this will effect us or not at all. I suppose they will still use vans if the address is near an airport.

Thoughts please.

Mike.

Been talk for a few years. Personally, I can’t see it happening in the UK except for very specific situations - like places that are remote and difficult to access.

The places where most of us live present too many practical and safety obstacles for drone delivery.

Cheers,

Nigel

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Posted by Michael Adams 3 on 23/11/2019 11:11:46:

HI every one, this morning I have heard that Amazon are now going to use Drones to deliver their goods,

I wonder how this will effect us or not at all. I suppose they will still use vans if the address is near an airport.

Thoughts please.

Mike.

As there are rules about how close to houses drones can fly, will amazon drones deliver to a field outside my village and will there be safe drop off points n the middle of parks...or are they exempt from the 150 meter rule?

Can't you imagine some less honest persons hanging around the drop off point and grabbing the goodies if no one is there to collect it...and is the person collecting really the addressee.

I have a favourite quotation

"Those whom the Gods seek to destroy, first they make mad"

And my prayer "OK, so you have sent them all mad. Now please get on with the destruction part!"

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