Seagull Boomerang or Arising Star - any difference at all?

[David Davis]

Early Bird, I am seventy -two years of age and by no means a hot shot pilot. For example, I struggle to hold a WOT 4 inverted for more than a few seconds, but I am a club-level approved instructor with both the BMFA and its French equivalent, the FFAM and I have been told by some of my trainees that I am a good instructor, in two languages too.

I have taught people how to fly for several years and regrettably with some, I have not succeeded. All of these failures had one thing in common, most were retired when they started to learn to fly r/c models but there were some who were less than retirement age who never quite got the hang of it either. Fortunately, the majority of my trainees eventually got their A Certificates or Brevet As.

Younger trainees pick up the technique very quickly. When I lived in England my club staged a competition offering free flying tuition to three young people. The winners were all thirteen or fourteen years old. They all gained their A Certificates within three months.

Older trainees require much longer to get to that level. My latest trainee, aged sixty-four, when first given control of an electric four-channel foamy trainer had it in a spiral dive within seconds of having been given control. With trainees like him I wait for a calm day and give him a long flight on a buddy box with a Junior 60. This is a three channel vintage model which will self correct if the trainee gets into trouble, given sufficient height. Having had a successful experience on the sticks, the novice gains in self confidence and together we can make progress from that point onwards.

Older beginners also have difficulty flying in a wind. More experienced pilots look at the model and react immediately if the model is flying off course. Beginners, young and old, have to work out what's happening, then decide what to do. For older people this is a slower, less automatic process and they make lots of mistaakes before they get it right. Thank heaven for buddy boxes I say.

That's why I never take up rank beginners in a wind. The Boomerang comes into its own when your trainee has almost reached A Cerificate standard. He is able to fly the model around for fifteen or twenty minutes without a qualm and once he's got to that level, his confidence levels are high and the passing of the test will be easy.

Just my experience of course, others may have a different perspective.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

My job when i'm teaching is to build the learner up, remove all the obstacles i can, a model zooming usually leads to a loss of speed, trainee waggling sticks coz nowts responding, it's stalling, oo'er, confidence takes a hit, doesn't want to fly in winds.

Buy the Boomerang, jobs easier, more flying days, happy trainee. Passed out quicker, he can fly on his own sooner.

[Jonathan M]

Very useful contribution David.

I too am an (informal) instructor at my club. By no means a highly experienced fixed wing power flier, I only started when I was fifty (and usually find slope and now thermal soaring more instinctive) but gradually getting better at all aspects of RC flying. One day I hope to get the B Schedule properly nailed, but for the time being I seem to be the only member close enough to the patch and with the time available to help with basic training. My main advantage in the task is that I have a lot of prior experience of teaching older adults technical and craft skills from scratch - so I'm intrinsically patient and structured.

Everyone learns differently, but the common theme (as you observe!) is that the older you are when you start, the slower the process! The essential method is to explain, demonstrate and then let the trainee practice ONE new thing at a time, building their confidence from secure basic foundations onwards.

Pilot workload has to be kept at a comfortable level at all times. This is why many otherwise very skilled fliers who aren't trained or natural teachers often wind up stressing the trainee in error - too much information too fast, or not in the right order, resulting in too little time for the trainee to settle down at any juncture and relax into comfortable level flight, etc.

Whatever a field's normal conditions of wind or turbulence (ours happens to be particularly exposed), I've become convinced that a larger traditional model like the Boomerang has an obvious advantage over the smaller, lighter foam trainers too many people buy for themselves: it can be flown a greater distance out without the trainee losing clear sight or orientation of it, which in itself buys more time for them as each leg of a circuit then takes a bit longer, allowing the trainee to settle his/her mind before the next turn or manoeuvre.

Of course the other way to start off older trainees is with a sizeable foam powered glider. This won't give any training in the take-off/landing side of things (which can be factored in later using a proper powered model), but will enable people to become comfortable with the basics of smooth flight control, orientation, etc. With this they can also spend time practicing on their own using hand-launches for any suitable field, whereas normal power training would necessitate instructor and trainee meeting up regularly at the club field while progress is slowly gained and confidence built.

Anyway, looking forward to getting the Boomerang fitted out and flying.... and maybe it'll also prove to be a suitable model for myself - alongside my electric Wot4 - to practice with for my B Cert!

[Dwain Dibley.]

I have also taught people to fly with a Boomerang, both on buddy leads and in the grab the tranny mode.....

The boomerang will do anything you want. best on a .46. I have built in excess of 20 for people, and they are easy to repair. They will also fly extremely plump and overweight.

I passed my A on one , passed it on to a mate and he passed with it also. called it Tree hugger, as it ended up in one....

we got it back and wrote tree hugger on the wing, it's still flying

I still have one built from a kit, electric...Of course......

D.D.

Here she is before the tree incident.

[EarlyBird]

Thanks and wow so many Instructors!

Everything you say is true from what I have observed.

I started when I retired . I went to the LMS bought a RTF Ares Alara. Joined a club who assured me there would always be people there to give me stick time. I went full of enthusiasm to be met with a barrage of criticism many would have given up there and then. Fortunately the Instructor came 'right have you got a plane if so lets get you in the air'.

He checked it over, without comment, put me on the buddy box did the usual told me to try a few circles just to get a feel for the sticks. He landed it for me told me the rates were too low and adjusted them to maximum with the comment 'right lets see how you get on now'. Second flight he explained about circuits and flying straight and level. After he landed I asked what he thought 'you have just done in two flights what for some takes a year and others never achieve well done' he did not mention my age. Wow it felt good.

Thanks to him I passed my A in four months.

Later he had a nine year old novice who was very quick to learn, us old guys were amazed how he visibly improved with every flight. He took his A after a month and only flying at weekends amazing!.

So yes age does have an effect but when one retires one has more time to fly. It's not a competition it's just about having fun.

As for flying in a wind my instructor's response to, but its too windy surely, 'wind what wind lets get you in the air' but its 18mph are you sure 'yes you will be fine' he is very positive and never says anything negative. All his pupils learned to fly in a wind and still do. I think that on a windy day he derives some sort of pleasure from seeing his pupils flying while others are using the 'it's too windy excuse' as he puts it.

A time came when he had six novices at once so I offered to help. Never say anything negative because it sends the wrong message was the advice. I always had respect for Instructors but standing with novices, I learned, requires a high level of commitment. Having six at once unbelievable. I had two novices and had no time to fly myself. All Instructors deserve a medal in my view.

Too all Instructors thank you.

Steve

[David Davis]

I tend to form a judgement as to the beginner's position on the learning curve before taking them up in a wind. I am currently teaching three beginners, two expatriate Englishmen and a Frenchman. One of the Englishmen and the Frenchman could fly in a wind but I would have to catch the model once or twice in each flight. The other Englishman has only flown once and has not reached that stage yet.

PS. I read somewhere that if the Battle of Britain Spitfire pilots had been forty years old rather than twenty years old, there would have been wrecked Spitfires all over the place at the OTUs!

Edited By David Davis on 16/07/2020 09:11:56

[Jonathan M]

Nice 'tree-hugger' DD!

So here's another question: I've got the choice of either the OX Max 46FX or an Irvine 46 to put into the Boomer, both used engines but both good. Anything in it?

[Dwain Dibley.]

If you look closely there is an Irvine 46 in the tree hugger, my mate swears by them. Properly set up they go every time on the first turn, and drag the model round like a rag doll.

D.D.

[J D 8]

Irvine 46 UK made with black carb. Has been powering my ARC Jupiter for many years. The most reliable and least fuss engine I own.

[Jonathan M]

That's just like mine - except mine says JAPAN on it.

[David Davis]

Posted by Jonathan M on 16/07/2020 20:55:40:

Nice 'tree-hugger' DD!

So here's another question: I've got the choice of either the OX Max 46FX or an Irvine 46 to put into the Boomer, both used engines but both good. Anything in it?

Both are excellent engines and will suit the Boomerang admirably. I have just fitted an old Enya 50 in mine because I have a soft spot for the old thing! Your Japanese Irvine will have a silver or aluminium OS carburetter instead of the black Irvine Jetsream carburetter but that's the only difference. Most of the other i/c trainers at my club are powered by the OS 46 FX which is available for less than 100€ in France.

My Boomerang is pictured below when it was fitted with a Webra 40. Performance was adequate but the engine cut out over the field of sunflowers and I had to land out of sight.I think it needs more running in. A similar thing happened to the guy on the left a fortnight ago. A search party was organised and the guy in the middle found both models! The yellow and blue model was no worse off from its holiday in the crop!

[Ben B]

Just briefly re ballooning- it's pilot induced. On the downwind turn people hold in more elevator to prevent drifting downwind and trying to keep a constant radius on the ground (ignoring that the plane is flying through the air). When this extra elevator isn't bleed off quickly enough the plane "balloons" and people blame the plane / weather / spektrum transmitter etc etc.

 

In I.T. this is called PEBCAK

 

"Problem exists between chair and keyboard"

Edited By Ben B on 17/07/2020 09:05:46

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

They pull harder on elevator with the Boomerang as well against the wind then, no one saying It balloons ? Whether It's a bit more incidence or just the flat bottom, It balloons, It's a given pilot can correct this. Or you can choose the Boomerang.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Do they explain why the Boomerang wing doesn't balloon, or why the learner has this inbuilt compensation on the flat bottom wing flying ? Pretty good this learner, can't fly yet, but subconsciously is correcting for variation in speed, airfoil play no part in aircraft behaviour ?

[Jonathan M]

A minor but important mod:

The stock Boomerang wing has torque rods for the ailerons driven off a single servo astride the wing-join. But, to enable differential as well as accurate trimming of each aileron, I'm going to mount two servos, one each side of the join. I just like the idea of being able to fine-tune the model to practice cleaner B-Test manoeuvres myself.

This will also allow me to not have to epoxy the wings permanently together, just use joining-tape.

[Jonathan M]

My Irvine 46.

Ignore the locking-nut as it'll be replaced, and the only thing slightly annoying is the mess some previous owner made of the mounting holes on one side.

Don't know about the carb, except that it is silver and says IRVINE on it, and works very well indeed.

[Ben B]

I suspect flat bottomed wings "balloon" more because they have worse penetration, fly slower and therefore beginners compensate more using elevator to keep position relative to themselves. Or use more power which makes the problem ever worse as it causes climbing.

Apart from gusts the plane doesn't know it's in wind. Imagine if you were in a constant wind situation and you were standing in a flying hot air balloon flying circuits around the balloon. Suddenly the ballooning would stop- why?

Aerofoils know two things - AoA and speed of flight. That's it. It's flying in a body of air, the speed of that body of air over the ground is irrelevant until it comes to landing or if the pilot is on the ground and confusing airspeed and groundspeed.

[Ben B]

I suspect flat bottomed wings "balloon" more because they have worse penetration, fly slower and therefore beginners compensate more using elevator to keep position relative to themselves. Or use more power which makes the problem ever worse as it causes climbing.

Apart from gusts the plane doesn't know it's in wind. Imagine if you were in a constant wind situation and you were standing in a flying hot air balloon flying circuits around the balloon. Suddenly the ballooning would stop- why?

Aerofoils know two things - AoA and speed of flight. That's it. It's flying in a body of air, the speed of that body of air over the ground is irrelevant until it comes to landing or if the pilot is on the ground and confusing airspeed and groundspeed.

[Denis Watkins]

Poor newbies reading this

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Denis Watkins]

Agree, this is an overall brilliant post Steve, will all the relevant information.

But, some airfoils do increase altitude turning into wind, especially flat bottomed wings

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

They balloon into wind, the learner grabs a handful of elevator to turn against the wind, note the learner comment, when he does same with the Boomerang it does not rear up as bad.

Now when it's blowing, what do you take to the field ? your flat bottom jobbie or something with a better wing section, are you telling me, you're over compensating with the flat bottom jobbie and can't manage a bit of wind ?

Aeroplane don't know It's windy.

Now the next time I'm teaching an expert on aerodynamics to handle a trainer, we can fly or discuss stuff, until then flat bottomed trainers shall balloon into wind, unless I'm flying it.

[Ben B]

Posted by Denis Watkins on 17/07/2020 16:41:49:

Agree, this is an overall brilliant post Steve, will all the relevant information.

But, some airfoils do increase altitude turning into wind, especially flat bottomed wings

Perhaps we can say "some planes with flat bottomed airfoil wings show a tendency to balloon when being turned into wind due to the discrepency between ground speed and wind speed". Flat bottomed wing planes certainly balloon but it's not the plane or aerofoil doing it...

It would be interesting to see a black box of stick commands and compare with an overlay. I used to increase throttle on the turn (to maintain groundspeed) and feed in down elevator to prevent climbing then release the elevator stick when turn completed and be surprised when it "ballooned". Your brain tells you it's the plane. It's not.

Perhaps we should start another thread of modeller myths

1. "Radio interference" (a.k.a. dumb thumbs)

2. Trees that jump out and grab planes

3. Ballooning

4. Bernoulli's principle (now that one is debatable!!!)

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

There is no myth, flat bottomed trainer and most trainees, balloons into wind, the reasons mean next to nothing to the pupil, It's off putting n spoils their day, then it's "I don't like to fly in winds" equals less stick time, loss of confidence, get a Boomerang.

Trees don't jump out n grab planes, you just made that up. Where do you think the term Ambush came from ?