What makes a good kit ?

[kevin b]

35 minutes ago, john stones 1 Moderator said:

Yep, I reckon it's an interesting thread as well, built and owned plenty of the Flair range, used to build Magnatillas for a model shop, sold quicker than I could make them. Never heard of Richards kits before I joined this forum, would I buy one ? I would buy one pronto if he did one I wanted.

Echo what Phil said, any mileage in a trainer or low wing trainer ? Warbirds may be your passion but business is business. The market is limited, how do you increase that market ? More variety or increase customer base ?

 

Chriss Foss stuff, they're big sellers, ( I believe) why's that then ?

Chris Foss is a good salesman. (irrespective of anybody's personal opinion).

 

Richard. "chippy" (touche). 

The reason for the demise of these types of kits has already been mentioned. European builders were prepared to let the manufacturers make a profit, provided that the quality was good. British builders wanted them "cheap" and then complained about the quality. Flair kits were good quality and low priced (but not profitable).

We are now in a different world, so now if the quality is right, then people will buy.

Also historically manufacturers did not deal direct, so all the "middle men" had to be paid. Now it is much easier to sell all over the planet (see the Chinese for details).

Edited March 22, 2021 by kevin b
Bad grammar (hand slapped).

[Piers Bowlan]

Chris Foss has a very strong brand matched by a well designed quality product. The Wot 4 kit with its thick section foam/veneer wing and generous wing area makes for a quick build warp free wing with inherently forgiving handling. At £163 for the deluxe kit with the glass fibre cowl and excellent illustrated instructions makes for a very attractive package.

 

The ARTF kits means the customer has the choice of kit or ARTF. Being distributed by Ripmax means the models are available from virtuallly every model shop in the land as well as being well presented on both Chris Foss's and Ripmax's websites. A 'new' release of a Wot 4 development, like the E-Wot 4 for example, means the breed gets fresh exposure in the modelling press in the form of reviews. No wonder they continue to sell well. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Piers Bowlan

[Nigel R]

Piers has it.

 

Start with a few quality offerings, aim them at the mass market of sport flyers. Do some options - normal size, big size, small size, IC, foam, electric, build it, don't build it, take your pick. Occasional new model or facelift. Big distribution network - buy direct, buy from a shop.

 

You want to sell kits, do it like Foss does.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Nigel R

[RICHARD WILLS]

Sounds simple , until you look at Galaxy Models . They ticked most of the boxes above too.

The other factor is that it is (no disrespect intended here ) far easier to design sport planes . There are fewer criteria to work to such as outline , nose length , spar position in relation to retracting wheels etc . The other big phobia for a lot of builders is finish . Am Acrowot covered in plastic film can comfortably look like the ARTF version or the box label . 

A beautifully built Spitfire painted by somebody with the finishing skills of a five year old looks like a pigs ear . 

Some kits became household names , like MR Gangsters , The Bullet too . So perhaps once you have distributed enough of them , they self perpetuate, because as we said a few posts back , you buy what your mates have .

If you try to translate that thought to scale models ,it doesnt work . Its far easier to sell a good looking sport model because it appeals to more people and is less daunting . Which Warbird could you do the same with ? 

The Spitfire is what everyone dreams of , but it is one of the most daunting . Especially as people now insist on the full fat version and would not want a hand launcher . 

Ironically one of the models I hear people wax lyrical over is the Ripmax ,pick it up and chuck it Spitfire , which was derived from Pete Nicholson's beautiful little model . 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

 

Don't get that Kevin ? Not aimed at me is it ?

[kevin b]

No John. Certainly not.

There are some people (not necessarily on this forum), who are a little cynical regarding Chris Foss's keenness to pursue copyright breaches and his designs similarity to older models, which didn't receive the limelight at the time. I personally believe there is little originality in many successful models and that success is born out of development of previous not-as-successful designs. Let's face, we have been designing and building model aeroplanes for well over 100 years now !   

[RICHARD WILLS]

I certainly agree with your appraisal Kevin . Very few designs in all walks of life are original . I would be the first to admit that both Gordon Whitehead and Mick Reeves definitely played a part in my modelling education . 

[Victor Arcudi]

8 hours ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

I certainly agree with your appraisal Kevin . Very few designs in all walks of life are original . I would be the first to admit that both Gordon Whitehead and Mick Reeves definitely played a part in my modelling education . 

;;;and Eric Coates for me...

[Engine Doctor]

On 13/03/2021 at 18:09, RICHARD WILLS said:

 

My question is , why do we remember some of these (less than perfect ) kits with such reverence ?

 

Probably a lot to do with passing of time and rose tinted specs, otherwise known as nostalgia ?. We must not forget the really dreadful kits that have been sold over the years ! Furniture grade balsa ! Hardware only suitable for target practice at getting it in the bin across the workshop and Rubbish instructions and die crushed parts that didn't fit !

The good old days ?

We genuinely tend to forget the kits that were OK , not brilliant , not bad but OK 

[Ron Gray]

I would also go as far as saying that the general quality of most kits, back in the day, were well below that we’ve come to expect now. So the poor quality ones we now look back on and think that they were good is only because there were a lot of rubbish ones too.

[Don Fry]

Ron has it spot on. How many ex aero modelers had their morale broken by old kits. I remember with astonishment buying a kit from Apache Aviation. About 2000 at Much Markle. Nice wood, carefully selected, lighter grades for the backend, good fittings, clear instructions, almost anal in making sure there were no misunderstanding, parts fitted. Result flew. 
It is to my shame I ever bought an ARTF. The latter day kit makers deserves better from us, just as the early kit makers are in a special pit, consigned to make their kits for eternity.

[Dave S.]

I've built plenty of kits since the late 60s when I started modelling. The most impressive kitted models I have built and flown have been American - with Great Planes at the top of the tree. Excellent wood, clear accurate plans and very thorough instruction booklets. Sig kits are also good, but not as good as Great Planes, in my opinion.

Harking back to the popularity of Chris Foss's designs - he doesn't need to be a good salesman as his models sell themselves - every flying site in the land has Wot 4s or Acrowots around, and once seen flying, people buy them. I've built at least a dozen of each of these two, all have flown very well. I have a couple of ARTF Wot 4s and an ARTF Acrowot which fly fine, but are nothing like as robust as the kits. It takes me longer to put the ARTFs together than it used to for me to make a kit.

The last kit-built Wot 4 I had last me for years, had several engine changes, even an early attempt at electric power with a load of NiMH cells, but flew best on a 50 two stroke or 70 four stroke. It was getting tired after 8 or 9 years of flying, but I certainly got my money's worth from it!

[Walts]

• Apologies for digging up an old thread, but I have been out the game for quite a few years again, and must say, my biggest shock on returning was the massive increase in cost of everything modelling related! I was never a massive kit builder anyway to be honest. Starting in the 70's, and being part of a large poor family, my dad taught me pretty much from the off to build from plans, after having learnt some basic skills from building Keil Kraft rubber powered kits.
•  
• I have dabbled in both kits and ARTFs over the years. Being predominantly a scale modeller, I always found ARTFs lacking in finish and scale appearance, with many looking like kids toys rather than scale models. I believe this is where the hobby is segregated yet further. With fliers happy to fly a shiny plastic film covered ARTF Spitfire, because it's a Spitfire. Where as builders of scale models want a much more authentic look from their models. Kits provide a great starting point in achieving this, as they give you the basic airframe, usually designed to a much more scale like appearance than their ARTF counterparts. Then it is up to the builder how far they want to take things. possibly improving the scale look even further as they build the kit. But as Richard has already stated earlier, a well built kit, finished badly, can still look awful. But at least with a kit you have the option to learn and try out different finishing techniques along the way, for which I always found the online forums, once we reached the computer age, invaluable. 
• I am one of those modellers who has never felt drawn to the Spitfire, always preferring the more rugged look of the Hawker Hurricane. So when I came across Richard's Warbirds range around 14 years ago, and spotted he offered a Hurricane I snapped it up! Now I found the Warbirds range to be a kinda halfway kit. offering a great step up for people wishing to progress from ARTFs to being able to build fully built up kits, with foam core veneered wings and lots of foam core veneered decking's built around a central crutch. But what I personally found really attractive about them, was that they gave me a really quick route to building a scale model that I could then spend as much time as I wished finishing to a decent scale appearance without the months or even years of intricate building required when scratch building from a plan.
• I was sad to see the demise of Richards kits before I got chance to build some more, but as has also been stated earlier in this thread, Richard's offerings were only ever going to appeal to a small niche of the hobby, namely those who not only wanted to fly scale models, but were also prepared to split their time equally building models as part of their hobby.
• For me building is as big, if not an even bigger part of the hobby as flying them.
•  
• Wardirds replicas Hawker Hurricane
•       

[Ron Gray]

Lovely looking Hurri, Walts.

[Walts]

Thank you Ron. It was built from a basic Warbirds Replicas kit, but modified along the way during construction. I found it flew superbly on a Laser 80. One observation at the time from those building it was that it did land a bit hot, but not sure if that was more a combination of us all building too heavy striving for more scale detail, and some lack of flying ability too ?

 

 

 

[Victor Arcudi]

Excellent looking Hurri! Great job.

[Walts]

Thanks Victor. It was lost early in it's life due to a radio failure caused by my own stupidity! Never forgave myself for that! 

[RICHARD WILLS]

Where are you living now Walts ?

I was thinking about doing a small batch of something . Just been reading the Tom Neil book "Scramble" .

Excellent book and a very detailed picture painted of Hurricane flying in the Battle of Britain .

Brave beyond belief !

Richard 

[martin collins 1]

Richard, i like those words `small batch of something`, will watch with interest, love the idea of the foam core wings etc to speed up the build, very impressed with my JU88 kit and would love to buy some more of your kits.

[Walts]

Hello Richard, good to hear from you again after all these years mate. I'm back living in Devon again now after a 10 year stint back living in Essex.

Yes I must agree with Martin, 'a small batch of something' does indeed sound interesting!  

[RICHARD WILLS]

Walts . Ive just moved to Wiltshire so hands a bit tied on modelling front , but can still order back catalogue . The older kits are more foam veneered so in some respects better at the moment given the price and availability of balsa . 

[Ron Gray]

Sounds like you need another Hurri,Walt to replace your ‘lost’ one.

[Walts]

Hi Ron, I actually still have my VQ Hurricane that I stripped straight out the box and completely reworked. I only ever flew it twice for very brief test flights before dropping out the hobby again this last 4 years. It flew nothing like the Warbirds Hurricane. It was a complete handful! But I'm convinced that was down to very poor C of G recommendation in the manual. I will rest it further forward and try it again at some point after blowing the cobwebs out of my flying again ? 

[Walts]

That's interesting to know Richard! When I checked the Warbirds Replicas site there didn't seem to be any aero kits available. So are you still able to offer the 110 as a kit mate?

[RICHARD WILLS]

Ah well ....

Only if a few people wanted one . Like 5 or 6 . 

Its a cracking model as is the Ju88 . Easier to find people to  put their hands up for a single though .