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Club Flyer training arrangements.


Basil
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I would be interested to learn how various clubs organise or not, the training of new flyer/members if required, especially where club rules are strick about the rules/reccomendations re qualification.

Simple as that.

Bas

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What an interesting question and weirdly I was chatting to another club’s chairman about this yesterday. There are lots of ways of skinning a cat and not necessarily simple but we have found this works best and a high percentage of our trainees do actually learn to fly, stay with the hobby and become regulars with all of the obvious advantages.

 

Prospective members that haven’t got a model, visit the club have a go on one of the club’s trainers, on the buddy, so they can have “taster” lesson. If they then want to join and a space is available then they are given advice on what equipment to get etc and start training.

 

Our club’s training/ solo flying programme has evolved over time, along the BMFA’s guidelines and now takes place on defined days, primarily on Saturday’s from 9.00am – approx 2.00pm and also during BST 5.00pm until dusk on Wednesday’s. We use a dedicated Whatsapp group to keep trainees informed (or call them). During this time they naturally and gradually get to understand the club rules, BMFA/ RCC stuff etc and the questions part of the Fixed Wing A test. Our examiners don’t get involved with any testing until a trainer advises them that a trainee is ready.

 

There are a few routes to being allowed to fly solo (outside of the training environment).

1, If the prospective member has their own model and a FW A or above then a proving flight of basic competency is all that is required (must inc relevant calling and an understanding of our flying rules) – Take off, fly a few circuits within the flying boundaries and then a landing on the strip and they are good to go.

 

2, As above, but if found a bit wanting/ rusty then they have to attend the training sessions until they can reliably do this. If they can fly solo but just need a bit of supervised practice then a few sessions is usually all it takes. If they are really dodgy, they have to go on the buddy until they are at the FW A standard (see below for buddy arrangements).

 

3, We also have several members mentoring mates/ family and they are both encouraged to also attend the training sessions although no problem if they want to make their own arrangements to meet at other times.

 

4, After joining, absolute novices must attend the training sessions, regularly and with serviceable equipment. We insist on them having their own buddy system of 2 Tx’s, their own either i.c. or electric trainer (ideally a 60”+ wingspan, we like the Seagull E-Pioneer or Arising Star, but anything high wing and “trainery” is ok) and all of their own field equipment etc. We provide lots of guidance on equipment and quite often existing members have suitable 2nd hand stuff for sale (usually from our previous trainees). The 1st couple of sessions we put a fair amount of effort into getting the model and radios fully set up, fail-safe, range checks etc and go through all of the pre-flight checks with the trainee. This pays dividends down the line as we have quite a few members that help with training and they don’t mind doing the flying but most don’t want to get involved in the initial setting up or 1st flights (too much responsibility?). As soon as the model is ready they start flying and this involves getting the hang of calling, circuits within the boundaries at a fairly constant height and making sure they know how to carry out pre/ post flight checks of the model and controls etc. Once they can do that, we move onto rectangular circuits. Then rectangular circuits with descents to approx head height and slow flying down the strip with rudder steering and straight climb outs. This gets repeated, a lot, until they are fairly consistent. We also start taxing/ lining up for take-off practice during this period. Landings are next (usually not a problem by this stage, as they are used to flying low and slow, just throttling back and hang onto the elevator and they are down – phew!). After this straight onto take-offs which are usually a non-event by then. A few more sessions of “whole flights” and they come off the buddy and the trainers gradually move away from them until the trainee is properly flying solo – yay. After that back on the buddy for trimming, figure of eights, climbing to altitude and dead stick demo’s. They then go back to solo and carry on practicing these on their own but within the supervised training environment/ sessions. Once they are consistent they do their test and are then let loose.

 

We also do some “Beyond the A” training for basic aerobatics.

Edited by Model Monster
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Thank for replying,  begining to think that no one is interested in Flight Training, but with out it we have not got a future!!!. I can understand  most subscirbers not posting as if you can 'Fly' then its of little interest any more !!!.

I was really interested in the initial training proper, following the taster and equipment procurement etc.

In your club your abviously have a proper plan re the training. On a training day how many/long in air sessions would you expect to carry out in an ordinary session per trainee ?. How many sessions( on average ) would you expect it would take to reach 1) Acceptable basic, 'Keep it in the air' level.

2)Passing basic level cert?.

Would you say that it could be carried out within 1 year?

From your text it would appear that many training sessions would be required and at say 6 mins a flight (Leccy)!!!!

I think the  BMFA reccomendations are aimed at the end target and not at the method of reaching it. I may be corrected on this!!

Bas

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1 hour ago, Basil said:

Thank for replying,  begining to think that no one is interested in Flight Training, but with out it we have not got a future!!!.

.......................................................................

I think the  BMFA reccomendations are aimed at the end target and not at the method of reaching it. I may be corrected on this!!

Bas

Have you seen the BMFA flight training manual "A Flying Start"? I believe many clubs use this a s a basis for training.

You can download it from the BMFA's Achievement Scheme website.

 

Dick

 

179865834_AFlyingStart.thumb.jpg.d3d040444cd6a38caa956558bc8ee096.jpg

 

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For me, the key thing is turning up with appropriate equipment.  My heart sinks when I see somebody show up with one of those little pusher 'toys' with its own tx and built in 'stabilisers'.  They (both plane and modeller) rarely last.

 

My latest pupil turned up at an Open Day (in 2019!) with a Spitfire that he'd been assured a beginner could fly.  I barely managed to get it down in one piece - bag of spanners.  He went away and got an ST Discovery, Futaba gear and half a dozen flight packs.   I told him to turn up as often as he could, ensure his plane was always ready for flight then pester me to take him up.  He was solo within 6 weeks, flying mainly weekends.

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We have no formal structure or training days, if a member is competent and sensible they can instruct, if not they'll get stopped doing it. Shift patterns and the working week differs, not great for a new member if training days are at weekends and they work weekends. What's our objective ? To teach to fly safely withing the club rules and laws of the land, once proven they're passed out to fly solo. I will go out my way to get good safe flyers teaching if they're willing to do it, there's a chat re what's expected of them, but that's it.

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2 hours ago, Basil said:

Thank for replying,  begining to think that no one is interested in Flight Training, but with out it we have not got a future!!!. I can understand  most subscirbers not posting as if you can 'Fly' then its of little interest any more !!!.

 

 

I'm not sure quite what you were expecting Bas - Model Monster had composed and posted a very full run down of his club's training regime to which probably mirrors most larger clubs' general processes and to which few people would need to add much within a couple of hours of your OP.

 

I feel that there is far more to learning to fly than simple stick time.  Joining in with the activities at the club and just watching others doing things right - and probably more importantly identifying where they go wrong is key to giving you a good grounding in what to aim for and how to achieve it.  Those that don't make progress are often the ones turning up on the best days and expecting people to run around after them.  Make yourself useful, ask sensible questions and join in with the banter and you'll find everyone even more willing to help you.

 

Make sure you have your equipment ready and as well prepared as possible and don't sit around moping because nobody has come up to you to encourage you to fly - I'm (nearly) always happy to do a session if someone simply indicates that they would like to fly and are ready to go.  It does get rather frustrating to have to rebuild someone's model for them on a good flying day - club instructors want to enjoy their flying too so spending an hour sorting out a model on a good day won't be terribly popular - although you'd be surprised how many people would be willing to help anyway.

 

Please bear in mind that club instructors are giving their time - usually very willingly - voluntarily and may want to indulge in their hobby at times. If this doesn't suit someone, they should go to one of the commercial schools.

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How are clubs actually handling flight training, if you pardon the expression, after the latest shutdown and ongoing concerns?

 

Example (1): A.N.Other newbie, complete novice, not previously known to anyone in the club wants to learn to fly.

How do you proceed? You have no knowledge of their background or potential environmental exposure at home/work to the current risks or their degree of adherence to precautions etc.

 

Example (2): 'Joe Bloggs' who you and 'Terry Terraway' have known for years, pitches up to learn the model flying ropes. You know they adhere to all the C19 rules and regs i.e. they are a trusted, known quantity. Do you gladly use your spare Tx with them without a qualm e.g. handling, passing to/fro, hands on, adjust their trims for them at close quarters etc.?

 

Just interested in folks thoughts and possible varied approaches subject potential differing pupils.

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Those questions are on the lines of "How long is a piece of string"?

I've seen youngsters who picked it up in just a few lessons and were flying consistently well within a few weeks - well capable of taking their "A" test in a month of so from never having flown before. I've seen folks who have still been on a buddy lead three years from starting out, who will probably never take, or pass, an "A" test -and everything in between.

 

It  largely depends on the individual - trainee and instructor.

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Basil. Some excellent points from the other replies and all relevant.

 

To answer some of your other queries.

 

We  do try and make it enjoyable/ fun but it does involve some considerable effort from both the trainer and trainee but is absolutely worth the effort. I don't think I've ever seen anyone happier than after they've passed their "A".

 

We have kept some records of training progress over the years. Quickest was 8 sessions (a 15 year old). Longest so far was 72 sessions over a couple of years (a member of  the club for over 20 years prior to this). Average is about 20, so definitely possible within a year, most of ours take about 6 months but it does depend on how regular they are.

 

We've had 2 where we couldn't get them to a safe solo standard despite lots of training but they still fly on the buddy and don't seem too bothered.

 

We try to have a least 6 flights per session/ per trainee. But it does sometimes take a while for them to build up flying stamina, to the point where it works for the trainees having flight after flight. Quite often they can start off ok and then go down hill as they tire. So it is worth having some breaks/ watch the other trainees etc.

Edited by Model Monster
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Just to add a bit to my previous post after I realised I'd missed out answering one of Basil's queries, refering to power plants.

 

We would generally have slightly more trainees who want to fly electric, I can't be sure of the exact reason why this is but some cite cleanliness which is fair enough. If the correct trainer is chosen then duration for either i.c. or electric is similar. For instance a Seagull E-Pioneer with a fair sized Lipo flies easily for 10 mins even when it's windy ditto for the Multiplex Mentor. Most of the foamies on 3s 2200's get 5 mins which is no problem but needs plenty of packs.  For i.c. duration never seems to be an issue and 10 minute flights are the norm. One point of slight interest is that quite a few of the electric trainees migrate over to i.c for some reason, possibly due to the fill and go again convenience, rather than having lots of packs/ waiting for packs to charge?

Edited by Model Monster
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My club here in the middle of France has a number of retired beginners so flight training takes place on a regular basis. The aim of the flight training is to take beginners up to Brevet A level, the equivalent of the BMFA A Certificate but to pass the Brevet A you also have to fly a loop, a roll and a reversal.

 

The Chief Flying Instructor is Roger Aubard, a very fine pilot who has competed and judged in the French Nationals and who always manages to land on our 10 metre wide tarmac runway. He uses a four channel ARTF trainer powered by an OS46 AX two stroke. After they've had a few familiarisation flights with Roger many of them come over to me for further flight experience. There are two others who help trainees from time to time as well.

 

I have a definite programme which I think works well.

  • Left hand circuits without loss of height.
  • Right hand circuits without loss of height.
  • Square circuits left and right without loss of height. This is good practice for a landing approach and some beginners find them easier to do than normal circuits so we continue to practise those first. 
  • Horizontal eights.
  • Take offs.
  • Landings.

Loops, rolls and reversals are introduced after the trainee has learned to take off.

 

I have two dedicated trainers, a We-Can-Fly electric foamie, which looks like a Multiplex Mentor to me, and a Seagull Boomerang powered by an Irvine 46, though I may fit an Enya 50 later. I also have a couple of vintage models which are pressed into service if the trainee can't manage a four channel model. These are so slow and stable that the beginner finds them easy to fly and gains confidence as a result but they are not practicable if the wind speed is above a Force 2. The We-Can-Fly is getting very old and battered. I may replace it with a Telemaster 40.

 

My latest trainee is a 71 year old Belgian called Frans. He started with one of my vintage models and was so impressed that he has been building a Junior 60 with my help. However, he has made excellent progress flying the four channel stuff and performed a loop and a landing on the buddy box with Roger last weekend. He is learning much more rapidly than any other retired trainee I've ever come across.

 

One of the minor problems I face here is that I'm a Mode 2 pilot but everybody else is Mode 1 but that's not really a problem once the beginner has had one or two flights on the buddy box with a Mode 1 instructor. You can combine a Mode 2 instructor with a Mode 1 trainee and vice versa and have been able to do so for years, long before 2.4 digital radios came into vogue.

 

There are four Englishmen in the club including me. One is already a competent flier and another can manage to fly Mode 2 on the buddy box. The third, Barry, has only visited us once before suffering a heart attack! He's better now. I bumped into him in the agricultual co-op two days ago. As I plan to sell up and move  back to England to spend the autumn of my life with Miss Blue Eyes, pictured holding our Super 60 in my avatar, we've collectively agreed that Barry had better learn to fly Mode 1!

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A big problem is getting experienced flyers to come forward as instructors and be prepared to give up a lot of time and energy to do the job properly. Both of my quite large clubs (about 100 members each) are finding that offering worthwhile and effective training is becoming increasingly difficult as the age demographic cuts in and those who have 'done their bit' step back. Out of the two clubs, I'm aware of only one chap is to be found regularly giving instruction on an organised basis but can only really cope with a couple of trainees at any one session. One or two others do chip in to help but this can be counter productive if newcomers keep getting different instructors with little continuity.  I did my bit instructing for a number of years when I could guarantee being able to be available on at least one regular day a week  but I can't do that now because being retired, I visit my clubs at different times and days working around other activities. Younger flyers who would make excellent instructors often have the same problem, but caused by trying to fit regular flying times in between family and more often, given the nature of modern employment, work commitments.

Learners need a regular and consistent course of instruction and whether that's stymied by their own inability to turn up when good instruction is available, or a regular no-show by an instructor, it doesn't bode well.

 

Edited by Cuban8
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Interesting read, especially how it's done at the larger clubs - and in particular Model Monster's excellent detail about the training steps.

 

Being small we don't have the luxury of instructors who're regularly available (except me at the moment), and the turbulent nature of our site (on top of the normal variable weather) means that fixed training days/times just don't work.  Beyond this, the major persistent problem is that the majority of prospective learners simply refuse to equip themselves with proper models for the job, and just turn up time and again with the same flimsy lightweight piece of foam, often needing work to get flying safely and properly, and which they can only do on relatively calm days!  They therefore make no real progress, disappear for a month or so... and so back to square one all over again!  Which is why I bought a Boomerang IC with buddy-box as a club trainer.  However we're not accepting new trainees until Covid is over (whereas experienced flyers with an A Cert etc are of course welcome).

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Model flying appears to be the only airsport in the UK which does not appear to actively work with and encourage commercial training by individuals or organisations. 
Training in clubs is all very well, however spare time is valuable to both pupils and instructors.  My experience is that there are plenty of beginners who would be happy to pay for lessons knowing that if they can turn up at a set time, on a set day, and receive an hour's uninterrupted instruction on a proven checked out model.
There is also the question of 'hobby hoppers'.  One or more instructors can give up hours of their spare time over a period of weeks, to get a beginner up to 'A' certificate standard, only for that person to sell all their gear and go off on their next whim.
As with other airsports, in-club training can co-exist alongside commercial training.  The in-club training is ideal for those with less disposable income who are happy to get involved in club chores and admin in return for training as and when instructors are available.
The vagaries of British weather, plus the cost of insurance and somewhere to fly mean that no one is going to get rich solely running a model flying school, however if the BMFA were to encourage 'paid for' training on club sites outside the club's busy periods, this would go along way to satisfying the need.

Edited by Robin Colbourne
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It's not true that there are no commercial training organisations - but they are few and far between.  From the point of view of a club, instruction is given freely and someone keen shouldn't really struggle to get instruction at a decent club.  Commercial schools may cater for the demands of time poor cash rich and sometimes less committed model flyers but it's quite a minefield once you start to offer paid instruction which few hobby modellers would want to involve themselves with.

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2 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

It's not true that there are no commercial training organisations - but they are few and far between.  From the point of view of a club, instruction is given freely and someone keen shouldn't really struggle to get instruction at a decent club.  Commercial schools may cater for the demands of time poor cash rich and sometimes less committed model flyers but it's quite a minefield once you start to offer paid instruction which few hobby modellers would want to involve themselves with.

Martin, I didn't say there are no commercial organisations.  I said the BMFA does not appear to actively encourage them, which is quite different.
You have to bear in mind that weekends are a precious commodity to the working population.  Many work overtime or shifts.  Parents may well be ferrying children to and from sports and other pastimes, Often only those whose children are able to fend for themselves or have left home can commit to being available regularly.
Another factor is that some people will be quite intimidated by having their lessons in front of  more experienced members.  You probably wouldn't have wanted your early driving lessons with three of your mates sitting in the back would you?  

Edited by Robin Colbourne
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