400 Feet (120m) height restriction for models over 7.5kg.

[PatMc]

18 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

Jet equals no money problems equals telemarry radio gear....yes ?

 

If you drive a Merc etc , you can afford the bills....yes?

 

Telemetry to give altitude isn't expensive, even if you drive an old Fiesta.  

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

6 minutes ago, PatMc said:

 

Telemetry to give altitude isn't expensive, even if you drive an old Fiesta.  

 

What's height limit for Fiestas ?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Years ago, before telemetry arrived, I knocked up a "Dam Buster" style rangefinder to get an idea of height for a preset span.  As telemetry is so cheap it has been scrapped but it was a viable alternative.

 

An aircraft at 500' AGL would have little doubt that a model at the same height or above it was above 400'.

[Rich Griff]

Nice, poverty is the mother of invention I have been told....or is that adversity....

 

If I could afford a jet it would mean I have won the lottery and have a new house and 9 fields....

 

Club altimeter gun......who have taken the batteries ?

 

 

water balance ( I like ) is within the pocket of every club, some string, a strong stick, pop bottles and water.......and some maths ( arithmetics really ).

 

Set to 7.55kgs stick level.....no arguments, quick and Simple and don't need batteries, hurrah !

Edited May 23, 2021 by Rich Griff

[Rich Griff]

How did you know I drive an old fiesta, I need a good 2 foot to be able to crawl underneath it !!

 

See thread responded about someone moaning about measuring height for a jet, jet equals money equals telemetry radio gear equals height measurement, no problem.

 

Not much money equals gun site .....they work quite well and don't need batteries.

 

Some people get it, some don't....we are all different, some have lots of money, some don't.

 

Usually the ones that don't have to be innovative etc..

[PatMc]

36 minutes ago, john stones 1 Moderator said:

 

What's height limit for Fiestas ?

Same as Mercs.

[PatMc]

18 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

 

 

Set to 7.55kgs stick level.....no arguments, quick and Simple and don't need batteries, hurrah !

None of my gliders (electric self launch) weigh anything close to 7.55Kg or they wouldn't be able to reach 200mtrs in 30secs, not on 300 - 400W power anyway. Quick & simple but they do need a battery. ?

[Peter Jenkins]

1 hour ago, Rich Griff said:

Nice, poverty is the mother of invention I have been told....or is that adversity....

 

 

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[Mike T]

Re the application process - why the need to present a 'rationale' for flying over 400'?   "Because I want to" would seem to be the obvious answer.  Common sense would also tell you that anything over 7.5kg is likely to exceed 400' just on the climb-out from take-off!

 

When it comes to monitoring height, in the absence of telemetry and gunsights, you have to develop your own judging skills.  I just seem to have a natural flair for it.  Whenever somebody comes up to me and says something like "Jeez!  How high is that?!", the answer is, unerringly, "no more than about 400 feet".  It's just a knack really, I can't claim any credit for it... ?

 

[Gary Manuel]

Not sure why or where jets or Mercs entered this discussion. I don't fly jets and have no desire to do so. The type of model I am talking about are similar to the first large model I bought a few years. It was a 30% Glenn's Cap 232 with Zenoah 62 petrol engine. I bought it "second hand"  from a clubmate for the grand sum of £300 including engine, servos, receiver, fire extinguisher, petrol can / pump, large model restraint, Zenoah easy start ignition retarder and even a right hand gauntlet for starting. When I say second hand, it was apparently about sixth or seventh hand, having been owned by a number of former members, all of whom had flown it at the club. One of them had spent a fortune on a lovely custom paint job. The previous owner to me was selling it because he had a habit of breaking props on landing and it was getting expensive. Anyway, I bought it as it was an absolute bargain, costing about the same as my previous model - a Wot 4.

 

I love it. It is so smooth and precise. Large loops and bunts are beautiful. One maneuvre I had started practising was a vertical figure of eight. Enter low, straight and level. Perform half a loop, then continue upwards into an inverted loop, then finish off with the second half loop back to low, straight and level. Another maneuvre that I love doing with this model is from a relatively high prop hang, apply full power and full elevator and push her into a tumble. Timing of throttle and elevator results in a series on the spot tumbles. I'm drooling now as I can imagine doing it.

 

Back to reality. I now realise that I have drifted unknowingly, as others before me have done, into flying this >7.5kg model too high (probably) and I want to remedy the situation. Yes I can use telemetry to give instant feedback or cut my throttle half way through one of these manoeuvres, but that's pointless. I want to be able to enjoy flying as I had been doing when I was an unwitting outlaw.

 

The BMFA are now making it easier to apply for permission to fly large models over 400 feet. They are even providing an online form and guidance to make the process easier. I believe that having a site permit with the associated entry in the AIP will make the site safer for all parties, even poor scratch built hack and shocky fliers (which I also love to fly).

 

One other thing. I do own a Merc. I also bought that second hand. I have been running it for 10 years and it is due for it's MOT on Thursday. It is starting to show it's age now, and I'm hoping it will pass ?.

 

The point I'm making is that this isn't about how much the model is worth. It's about whether I can continue to fly my beloved large models now that I have become aware of the 400 feet limit. I have not and will never knowingly fly illegally.

 

P.S. I have an Eagle Tree Altimeter on it's way to me so that I can see for myself what 400 feet looks like.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Gary Manuel
P.S. added.

[MattyB]

11 hours ago, Martin McIntosh said:

I would like to see an average turbine model loop in less than that. Our grass patch is maybe 100m long and a jet would only just be airborne at the end. Who could possibly estimate or measure the height of a model anyway? A figure pulled out of the air by some political office type. Getting thoroughly cheesed off with these petty regulations aimed at idiots with quads.

As per earlier in this thread the 400ft limit for large models over 7.5kg AUW (formerly 7kg “dry”) has been in place since at least 2003, and variants of it even before that. It has absolutely nothing to do with multirotors, they did not even exist when these regulations were put in place. As to estimating the height of a fast moving jet, I would be very surprised if pilots of models costing multiple thousands of pounds do not have radios with telemetry capability; add a cheap vario/altimeter sensor and you have all that data in real time, with live alerts for height as needed. 

[Rich Griff]

24 minutes ago, MattyB said:

As to estimating the height of a fast moving jet, I would be very surprised if pilots of models costing multiple thousands of pounds do not have radios with telemetry capability; 

My point exactly.....

 

Gun sight method for us poor people, but I would save for an electronic solution...

 

Hope your Merc passes it's mot, I am sure it will. I would not pass my fiesta for mot at present, it's in the tax and MOT exempt "region" but sorned, so not being used in the road untill at/above mot standard.

 

So your all safe, for now ! ?

Edited May 24, 2021 by Rich Griff

[Peter Jenkins]

1 hour ago, Cassandra said:

 

I don't agree with the BMFA's 'B' for 7(.5)+kg recommendation, but I might have to rethink my position. People need to know the weight bands and the understand the significance of going into them.

 

To be accurate, it is Clubs that sometimes insist on a B for jets and >7.5 kg models.  It is not the BMFA.  The same applies to flying unsupervised and an A Certificate.

These and the C tests are all individual achievements and if you don't maintain your new skills they will wither.  I have seen B pilots who are dangerous but they have a B so they can still fly the above aircraft.  It's up to Clubs to monitor their members not the BMFA.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

1 hour ago, Cassandra said:

 

Almost certainly from the aeros that you are doing with it.

 

I don't agree with the BMFA's 'B' for 7(.5)+kg recommendation, but I might have to rethink my position. People need to know the weight bands and the understand the significance of going into them.

 

 

By having the gained a B, do you then believe said pilot will be aware of weight bands ? And will behave accordingly, in this one thread alone plenty doubt being cast on some B cert holders, it's a right can of worms been opened here.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

1 minute ago, Cassandra said:

 

Mandatory question 16.

 

Not what I asked is it, given the doubt being cast against many a B cert holder, and the worth of said B, all that question 16 does is show that at one time it was discussed and answered, who knows what at a later date someone may claim.

[Gary Manuel]

4 minutes ago, john stones 1 Moderator said:

 

Given your phone call to me Gary, bit disappointed in this post, lots I could say but will save it for a club meeting.

Not sure why John. I think it explains my situation and thinking on the matter nicely.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

10 hours ago, Mike T said:

It very much depends on the model. As our field is located in controlled airspace, I’m been very aware of the legality of larger model flying and have had proactive dealings with the airport and NATS on many occasions. 
 

My 1/4 scale Cub and Maher’s Pacer are regularly flown to just below 400’ and looping manoeuvres and spins can be achieved comfortably within this ceiling. This would not be the case with a scale jet of similar size of course.  Telemetry alarms are a great reassurance that I’m not inadvertently climbing into prohibited airspace and I have programmed a telemetry control to bring the throttle to idle at a smidgeon under 400’, restoring power at 350’ as an additional precaution. 
 

Noise constraints mean that models such as 100cc aerobats aren’t common at our field - easy for an average club flyer to exceed 400’ with that sort of model - but we’ve had visits from the Azza Aerosport’s team and they managed to put on very accomplished demos within such a ceiling. 

 

[Gary Manuel]

25 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

10 hours ago, Mike T said:

...... we’ve had visits from the Azza Aerosport’s team and they managed to put on very accomplished demos within such a ceiling......

 

 

That's reassuring to hear Mike (or was it Martin?). Everyone else has suggested that it would be difficult to fly any reasonable schedule within the ceiling.

 

Maybe flying at a club without a BMFA Site Permit might be a possibility after all. I'll find out for myself when my Altimeter arrives. Didn't really want to face the choice of switching clubs or selling "my precious". Maybe I have a 3rd choice.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Gary Manuel
Not sure who I'm quoting

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

‘twas me - edited quoting from a mobile phone browser has its perils!

[Gary Manuel]

No offense intended John. Of course I value your opinion. We are pretty much on the same side, so please don't take offense at every little thing I say.

 

What I meant was that presumably the Azza team were using some form of Altitude feedback via telemetry, rather than relying upon human judgement. I can judge 120m (400 feet) fairly well horizontally. I know that because I have passed several railway lookout courses and played several rounds of golf. Judging the height of model aeroplanes of varying shapes and sizes vertically above in an empty sky is where the difficulty starts.

 

I was happy flying my large models in my ignorance, but now that I am no longer ignorant, I need to do it properly, especially as I have exposed how undeserving of a B certificate, or a seat on the committee I am.

[dave windymiller]

Recording height doesnt have to be expensive!  I found this very informative when flying my jet to the point of investing in real time telemetry for it!

 

 

 

[Gary Manuel]

Thanks Dave.

I now have an Eagle Tree Altimeter that records and displays maximum altitude. Been looking for an Eagle Tree eLogger to log periodic data, but they are not easy to get hold of. This Arduino project looks like an interesting alternative if I find that I need to go down the logging route.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Well I missed out on the Fiesta. ☹️

[PatMc]

21 minutes ago, Gary Manuel said:

Thanks Dave.

I now have an Eagle Tree Altimeter that records and displays maximum altitude. Been looking for an Eagle Tree eLogger to log periodic data, but they are not easy to get hold of. This Arduino project looks like an interesting alternative if I find that I need to go down the logging route.

Gary, it was the use of an Eagle Tree Altimeter that prompted the last sentence of my first post in this thread.

About 10 years ago, before Frsky had launched the Taranis, the only telemetry they offered was via add on bits to a donor Tx fitted with a Frsky module. I wanted to establish the altitude my e-glider reached from a 30 sec full power run using different dia props. Rather than buy the necessary Frsky telemetry gubbins I bought an ET altimeter to use in stand alone mode. It's a bit clunky to take the reading, which isn't permanently recorded, but at least can it taken immediately after the model's been retrieved.

After a number of test flights a clubmate, who'd been flying an over 7Kg aerobatic model, was curious about the altitude I'd been recording. He was more than a little surprised to find that 200 metres (656 ft) was the target altitude & I think sceptical that it was actually being reached regularly. He also realised that his model had been flying at around the same max altitude much of the time but had thought that it was always under the 400ft limit.  

 

[Frank Skilbeck]

If you would like to view your height and other parameters in graph and map form then the https://aerobtec.com/altis-gps/ units are worth a look. They also provide telemetry feedback on most radio systems.