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Not sure if this is a start to a reliability issue?


911hillclimber
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Well it all sounds correct to me, allowing for the soft start that you have enabled. Personally I would remove that but if you are happy with it then that is fine.

Yes the brake is pretty weak on a ‘standard’ ESC, it is just effectively shorting out the motor windings to provide some retardation to the blades. The blades will still probably turn due to the airflow, but more slowly than they would with the brake off.

More highly specified ESCs have brakes that can lock the motor more firmly but yours won’t do (nor does it need to).

Make the best of the forecast good weather and enjoy your flying!

Brian

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No i didn't Simon, it all seems to work, so I've let sleeping dogs lie to be honest.

 

There have been many times I've tried to tweak these electronic/programming things and ended up in deep water and on this forum to find a way out...

 

Just come in from the big project in the garage.

Turned the Tx on, check routine beeps and twitching all good.

Held the plane as if testing it all before take off and just tickled the throttle, no reverse moving. back to off.

tipped the throttle stick to wot asap and the motor followed it and was screaming within 1 second, so much for my exponential throttle curve.

 

Will check Flying Field web page tomorrow morning and if the breeze looks livable will be there and i hope exhaust all the batteries.

 

If it all goes pear shaped I'll be back!

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911hillclimber

As RottonRow points out the brake is achieved by the ESC shorting out a motor coil. This provides a considerable retard to the motor at high revs but the effect reduces as the motor slows down. Once the motor is stationary there is no extra resistance so the prop can still move out of the way if it has too! ?

Whether or not the prop is actually stationary in flight depends on the gliding speed of the plane. In most cases it will still rotate slowly unless you are flying a true slow flyer.

 

Just another point brushless motors can jerk (usually once) on start up. The ESC starts the motor by giving a short pulse to the motor. Its a 50/50 chance which way the motor will start to turn. The ESC reads the direction of rotation by measuring a tiny voltage created by the other motor coil. If the motor has started the wrong way the ESC will recognise this and give the next pulse to the appropriate motor coil. Obviously this makes the motor appear to 'jerk' on starting but it is quite normal. The other 50% chance is that the initial pulse makes the motor turn in the correct direction so it starts smoothly.   

 

 

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Thank you Simon.

That certainly makes sense.

I had a lot of time to consider there tech things today as My over confidence going solo came to a crashing result.

The plane was expertly smashed to pieces by this so called pilot.

Terrible result, front of the fuselage clean off the plane at the leading edge of the wing.

A chunk out of one wing machined by the propeller...

 

My fellow fliers went silent and the foam cascaded to earth.

Went and bought a fresh tube of foam glue and 1/2 of it is pieced togehther and setting.

 

Lots of other damage, but I'll get it sorted!

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I might be wrong here, but there is something not quite right with where / how you are learning to fly.

 

Is it a recognised / BMFA affiliated club?

Do you consider it to be a "safe" place to fly?.

Have you done any ground training (there are several BMFA download pamphlets especially geared towards learners)?

Are your clubmates helpful?.

Is there a structured training system in place?.

Have you been taught throughout on the "buddy lead".

Do you need the BMFA "A" test before you fly solo?.

Was there nobody up the field who could / would help you sort out the esc issue?

 

It seems that you have put in an inordinate amount of effort, and not made huge progress based on the time and amount of flying you have done.

 

Maybe I am missing something?.

 

None of our trainees are allowed "off the lead" until they are 100% ready, and are only allowed to fly solo after passing the A test. A system that has worked very well.

 

That said, we ALL have dramas at some point or the other!.

 

Forgetting to put wing bolts in (me), hitting trees, having mid airs, running out of battery power.....the list goes on, and non of us are perfect flyers.

 

Sometimes, models seem to fly even better after extensive repairs!.

 

Its a long shot, but is there another club you could go to with a more organised training system in place?.

 

Hope this is food for thought, and you can sorted one way or the other. 

 

Good luck and safe flying.

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30 minutes ago, SIMON CRAGG said:

None of our trainees are allowed "off the lead" until they are 100% ready, and are only allowed to fly solo after passing the A test. A system that has worked very well.

 

Simon, I also have concerns, but as far as reasonably practical would seem more reasonable than 100%. I just don't understand the let it crash approach.

 

I think that would mean everyone at my club would be on buddy leads, including all of the instructors and the area chief instructor if you could not prove anything less than a 100% record.

 

I work on the basis that they need to be able to fly the A (not necessarily to the required standard) repeatedly and with confidence at which point if they want they can come off the buddy lead. Club rules state that someone (minimum A) has to stand next to them for safety related issues, advice or if the trainee needs to relinquish control.

 

PS - Don't know about your club but people seem very reluctant to help people with a buddy lead, but more than willing to stand next to the trainee with only one TX between them!

 

 

 

 

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Just to make it clear.

 

The club instructor who is teaching the trainee, needs to be more or less 100% certain that the trainee is ready to come off the lead. There is no point just letting him off the lead to early for obvious reasons. Crash, safety implications, de-motivated etc.

 

At no point have I said that everybody, all the time, forever,  has to maintain a 100% safety record. We are all fallible to a certain extent even club examiners.

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None of this has anything to do with the topic though. Whether or not the OP has an "A" Certificate or the manner in which he is being taught to fly doesn't impact the troubleshooting of what looks like an issue of ESC programming, so isn't really relevant. He's seeking assistance here and had received a number of items of advice to enable him to troubleshoot the problem.

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3 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

None of this has anything to do with the topic though. Whether or not the OP has an "A" Certificate or the manner in which he is being taught to fly doesn't impact the troubleshooting of what looks like an issue of ESC programming, so isn't really relevant. He's seeking assistance here and had received a number of items of advice to enable him to troubleshoot the problem.

Which bit of "Thank you Simon, that certainly makes sense" do you not grasp?.

 

Of course it has got to do with the topic. The bloke needs help, which is what I am trying to give.

 

The troubleshooting obviously is not working............he has ended up with a bag of bits.

 

Try reading all his posts again, which should enable you to give a better appraisal of his current dilemma.

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I very much appreciate all your inputs to mt First Year adventure.

I've taken up a lot of time on here with various issues mainly due to my own deep ignorance and under-estimation of the depth of this hobby.

With everyone's help, getting there, enthusiasm undiminished!

 

The Club is affiliated and has a small membership of about 80 people. Many fly weekdays and all are retired like me.

They were most welcoming from the very start, and because I was on mode2 only one other was! He took me under his experienced wing and has been my buddy link.

Occasionally i fly his petrol plane as I did yesterday straight after the Big Crash to 'get back on the bike' so to speak. That long flight (just circuits, buddied-up) went well, very different dynamics to say the least.

 

Too full of enthusiasm (a regular prob of mine and impatience especially) I asked to go solo yesterday. My Buddy link was not at all sure, but i insisted.

Because it was 10 deg there with a gentle breeze i wore thing gloves... that did not help.

 

The plane left the ground and picked up speed almost alarmingly so I throttled back to vertical stick and started to bank left, usual routine, but my inputs were too abrupt and too much and the plane came down close to a nose dive but hit the ground upside down. Happened and over in 2 seconds.

 

There were no cheers just silence and disappointment, they all wanted me to progress from the perfect day of last Monday.

I have no issues with the club, the open field and the members I have flown with for the last months.

 

With lots of how to rebuild a wreck advice I stayed there to see others flying and went to the model shop for some glue.

 

The repair is progressing well. The nose is back on leaving the undercarriage which has been torn out before. My plan is to use the float hulls that came with the kit and splice in fresh foam to the underside and let the hard plastic u/c seat into that. Also, I will try to introduce a few re-enforcement inside while the bottom is open and access is good.

 

The long aerial was pulled out of the Rx, but i think I can solder it back. Spektrum AR610 Rx are oddly rare, but a good one on ebay is on it's way for £20.

 

I think if this crashes hard again it will be the end of the fuselage, a new one is £75.

 

While I'm crashing about I don't want to buy a fresh plane.

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10 minutes ago, SIMON CRAGG said:

Which bit of "Thank you Simon, that certainly makes sense" do you not grasp?.

 

Of course it has got to do with the topic. The bloke needs help, which is what I am trying to give.

 

The troubleshooting obviously is not working............he has ended up with a bag of bits.

 

Try reading all his posts again, which should enable you to give a better appraisal of his current dilemma.

I've read all the posts in the thread. There's no indication whatsoever that the issue with the esc is what has caused the OP to end up with a bag of bits. His post just now indicates that he is being well looked after in being taught to fly by a well organised club. It's not helpful suggesting that there is something wrong with the manner in which he is being instructed -and it certainly has zero to do with his ESC issue.

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Sorry to hear about your mishap yesterday, but it sounds like you are already on the road to getting in the air again.

If you do repair the receiver make sure that you carry out a range check before flying with it, actually do the same with the used one you are buying as well.

I’m not going to get involved in the tittle-tattle that has since crept onto this thread regarding the training regime or otherwise of your club.

Good luck and I look forward to reading how you progress with the original issue with the motor / ESC.

Brian.

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9 minutes ago, 911hillclimber said:

I very much appreciate all your inputs to mt First Year adventure.

I've taken up a lot of time on here with various issues mainly due to my own deep ignorance and under-estimation of the depth of this hobby.

With everyone's help, getting there, enthusiasm undiminished!

 

The Club is affiliated and has a small membership of about 80 people. Many fly weekdays and all are retired like me.

They were most welcoming from the very start, and because I was on mode2 only one other was! He took me under his experienced wing and has been my buddy link.

Occasionally i fly his petrol plane as I did yesterday straight after the Big Crash to 'get back on the bike' so to speak. That long flight (just circuits, buddied-up) went well, very different dynamics to say the least.

 

Too full of enthusiasm (a regular prob of mine and impatience especially) I asked to go solo yesterday. My Buddy link was not at all sure, but i insisted.

Because it was 10 deg there with a gentle breeze i wore thing gloves... that did not help.

 

The plane left the ground and picked up speed almost alarmingly so I throttled back to vertical stick and started to bank left, usual routine, but my inputs were too abrupt and too much and the plane came down close to a nose dive but hit the ground upside down. Happened and over in 2 seconds.

 

There were no cheers just silence and disappointment, they all wanted me to progress from the perfect day of last Monday.

I have no issues with the club, the open field and the members I have flown with for the last months.

 

With lots of how to rebuild a wreck advice I stayed there to see others flying and went to the model shop for some glue.

 

The repair is progressing well. The nose is back on leaving the undercarriage which has been torn out before. My plan is to use the float hulls that came with the kit and splice in fresh foam to the underside and let the hard plastic u/c seat into that. Also, I will try to introduce a few re-enforcement inside while the bottom is open and access is good.

 

The long aerial was pulled out of the Rx, but i think I can solder it back. Spektrum AR610 Rx are oddly rare, but a good one on ebay is on it's way for £20.

 

I think if this crashes hard again it will be the end of the fuselage, a new one is £75.

 

While I'm crashing about I don't want to buy a fresh plane.

Bad luck on the crash - but you did the right thing getting back up in the air ASAP and it's good that your repairs are going well.

You might have a point with the gloves - maybe some fingerless gloves might help -if it's really cold I do use a pair of neoprene anglers gloves to just take the edge off, but without affecting the feel of the sticks.

On your ESC issue, it does sound like you have somehow got the ESC into a soft-start mode and it would benefot from carefully and mthodically going back through the programming, armed with the manual for the ESC on the bench, in the warm, with the prop removed. That should make it clear that you have the ESC set up correctly and behaving properly.

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50 minutes ago, 911hillclimber said:

...Too full of enthusiasm (a regular prob of mine and impatience especially) I asked to go solo yesterday. My Buddy link was not at all sure, but i insisted.

Because it was 10 deg there with a gentle breeze i wore thing gloves... that did not help.

 

You have hit the nail on the head there. If you look back on these threads, the recurring theme is that your big incidents have almost all been self inflicted. You need to remember that your instructors know more than you, if they are saying you are not equipped for the conditions that day (even if you'd had a positive session last time) you should heed their advice. And I agree with the above post from @leccyflyer, ditch the gloves - they can dramatically reduce your feel on the sticks. 

  

50 minutes ago, 911hillclimber said:

...The repair is progressing well. The nose is back on leaving the undercarriage which has been torn out before. My plan is to use the float hulls that came with the kit and splice in fresh foam to the underside and let the hard plastic u/c seat into that. Also, I will try to introduce a few re-enforcement inside while the bottom is open and access is good.

 

The long aerial was pulled out of the Rx, but i think I can solder it back. Spektrum AR610 Rx are oddly rare, but a good one on ebay is on it's way for £20.

 

I think if this crashes hard again it will be the end of the fuselage, a new one is £75.

 

While I'm crashing about I don't want to buy a fresh plane.

 

Personally I would forget resoldering the RX aerial - bin it or use it for bench testing only, they can be quite tricky to solder and it is not valuable enough to press back into service when it could cost you a model. If you do try a repair make sure to repalce with a fresh aerial cut to the right length, as that one could have internal damage you can't see. This guide should help.

 

Re: the fuselage, if you can get one now I would do so - I know it's not cheap, but once a model has experienced a few arrivals as yours has it will be weaker from the repairs. Having it in stock means you will avoid what could easily be a lengthy Covid supply chain induced wait.

Edited by MattyB
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Self inflicted crunches: Yes

Accepting the Instructor knows best? Too true! I insisted he allowed solo and would only take over when asked. (we were buddied for the fatal flight). I simply did not have time/ presence of mind to ask and I doubt he would have had time to respond successfully.

Fuselage? Good idea

Ditch the ripped Rx? Yes, and also checking the ebay one (from a model dealer)

 

All the electrics are unplugged to do this repair, so will build it all up and return the esc to factory which is the middle of the 'very soft start' to soft Start to no soft start range.

Gloves?

I do tend to suffer instant cold fingers when it gets cool and suffered a bit last Monday, hence the brain wave of using thin cotton/neoprene coated gloves I use when on the cars.

 

Ditch those, and go bare handed!

 

I think I'll see the year out soon still on the buddy link, and kick off next year the same.

I've learnt my lesson.

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14 minutes ago, 911hillclimber said:

.................................

I do tend to suffer instant cold fingers when it gets cool and suffered a bit last Monday, hence the brain wave of using thin cotton/neoprene coated gloves I use when on the cars.

 

Ditch those, and go bare handed!

.........................

A friend who also suffers from cold fingers has invested in a pair of electrically heated mittens where the finger cover can be folded back to give electrically heated fingerless gloves - allows him to fly throughout the winter.

Sounds like it might be worth you investigating something lime that.

 

Dick

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1 hour ago, 911hillclimber said:

Self inflicted crunches: Yes

Accepting the Instructor knows best? Too true! I insisted he allowed solo and would only take over when asked. (we were buddied for the fatal flight). I simply did not have time/ presence of mind to ask and I doubt he would have had time to respond successfully.

 

Hmmmm, there is a (pseudo ?) interesting legal point worth making here methinks...

 

Long version - If a trainee is buddied up to an instructor, a court would almost certainly view the instructor as legally in charge for the duration of that flight, whether the trainee owns the model and has his Op ID on the side or not. As a result when I instruct I will take control when I believe it is the right thing to do, not when the trainee (who won't normally have the experience to know the point beyond which recovery is impossible) tells me I can. If a pupil put that demand on me I would politely remind them of this and walk away if they would not change their view.

 

Short summary - The instructor is in change, not the pupil. Do wot he says! ??

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Ideally the Instructor should save the model irrespective of what the pupil says but having done the same myself I know there are situations where it's impossible for the instructor to react in time, lets not forget he is an experienced pilot and instinct will naturally happen. In my case damaged models happened on landing when the ground was to close for anyone to react in time. At this point I could not see any benefit in being on a buddy lead, then the fun really started.?  

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Indeed, by the time it was getting difficult, the plane was all but 20 feet or less off the ground and heading due south.

 

Back to today, and a little diversion please:

All the major foam parts are now done and tomorrow the glue will be set. I'm pleased, and the motor mounting face looks nice and true to the fuselage best as I can tell.

 

I installed a fresh block of EPO to the U/C mounting area giving a nice flat gluing face and it looks far better for it.

 

Now, do I re-enforce the sides/nose with small wood squers (sp)?

 

I would think about 5 mm dia if they make them and run 4 or 6 through and glue, but I'll never get glue all the way down a 6" length.

Not sure if this will actually benefit the plane structurally.

 

I welcome any advice!

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