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4Max products


Frank Day
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Seeking to convert the BT Mossie to electric.

I had a quote from George at 4Max, no problem with the quote and he has been really helpful.

 

The products are branded as 4Max,  does anyone have experience of the products or know who actually produces them. I.e is the same item available for less.

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The only motor I have from them was bought 6 or 7 years ago was clearly one of the XYH jobs being resold under many different brand names both in the UK (GiantCod etc) and outside (HK, Alibaba, Banggood). Whether they still are I don’t know. In a recent post here George claimed his ESCs were of a special design that meant extended battery leads could be used, but few details were given of how that was achieved so I am a little sceptical tbh.

 

Back when I bought that motor the premium for using a UK supplier was pretty significant, but post Brexit (and given the current inflationary conditions) the world has changed, so those international suppliers are no longer as attractive as they were. YMMV.

Edited by MattyB
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15 minutes ago, Peter Miller said:

I use 4-Max motors and ESCs exclusively and find them really excellent.  I rely on George for advice always and his suggestions always give perfect results.  (I know exactly what an ic engine will do but working out what power any electric motor will give is a black art!!!)

Phil Green (of single-channel emulator fame) came up with a wonderful formula for converting i/c models to electric: 100watts per cc

 

Unlike most of the much more complex formulae out there, this even works for helicopters!

 

?

 

--

Pete

 

 

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I have high regard for George's advice and also his products especially the LiPo's he sells.  However I had a 20 amp stand alone UBEC which failed internally and instead of only allowing 6 volts through (or whatever the jumper was set at voltage) it passed the whole 24volts of a 6S LiPo through to the receiver and servos.  In a Thermix XXXL 5meter glider it took out a £250 Multiplex dual Pro receiver and 10 quality servos all burnt out, which was a little expensive to say the least.  I will still use 4Max motors Esc's and batteries but no longer trust any brand of UBEC - so always carry a separate Rx and servo battery from the motor power battery.  Just my 2 pence worth.

 

John M

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If this is of any help, I built a TN Mossie with Propdrive 50/50 motors and low Z capacitors fitted to the ESCs so that I could extend the battery wiring. On the second take off it suddenly slewed to the left, hit a bump which got it airborne and flipped over. Upon investigation the left ESC was only giving less than half power. I can only assume that the extended wiring caused damage despite being modified correctly, so just don`t do it.

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47 minutes ago, Martin McIntosh said:

If this is of any help, I built a TN Mossie with Propdrive 50/50 motors and low Z capacitors fitted to the ESCs so that I could extend the battery wiring. On the second take off it suddenly slewed to the left, hit a bump which got it airborne and flipped over. Upon investigation the left ESC was only giving less than half power. I can only assume that the extended wiring caused damage despite being modified correctly, so just don`t do it.

 

IMHO you need to discuss this with George, I have a number of models that have worked perfectly ok with long battery leads on 4Max motor/ESC set ups with no issues. In fact if you look on the 4Max web site quite a few multi motor set ups use long battery to ESC arrangements.

 

Just because a non 4max product failed, you do not need to spook the herd on the "old capacitor" requirement. This is a case of not all products are the same as I understand CC still specify capacitors to be used, but not 4Max products.

 

If in doubt consult with the manufacturer/agent/expert e.g. Call George and have a chat.

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3 hours ago, Martin McIntosh said:

If this is of any help, I built a TN Mossie with Propdrive 50/50 motors and low Z capacitors fitted to the ESCs so that I could extend the battery wiring. On the second take off it suddenly slewed to the left, hit a bump which got it airborne and flipped over. Upon investigation the left ESC was only giving less than half power. I can only assume that the extended wiring caused damage despite being modified correctly, so just don`t do it.

 

Given my understanding of the problem it seems unlikely that the ESC was killed by the long battery wires after only one flight. All the use cases I've read about are when the long term effect of the voltage spikes and increased current through the caps eventually causes them to pop (which is normally very evident from the outside!). Were the ESCs tested individually before use to validate they weren't faulty out of the box? That sounds like a  more likely explanation to me...

 

PS - Additional information on the physics behind the long battery lead problem.

 

2 hours ago, Chris Walby said:

 

IMHO you need to discuss this with George, I have a number of models that have worked perfectly ok with long battery leads on 4Max motor/ESC set ups with no issues. In fact if you look on the 4Max web site quite a few multi motor set ups use long battery to ESC arrangements.

 

Just because a non 4max product failed, you do not need to spook the herd on the "old capacitor" requirement. This is a case of not all products are the same as I understand CC still specify capacitors to be used, but not 4Max products.

 

If in doubt consult with the manufacturer/agent/expert e.g. Call George and have a chat.

 

I agree with the sentiment of your text that I've highlighted above, but IMO without any explanation of how 4Max ESCs get over this problem it's only prudent to be sceptical. After all, this is not a new problem and the physics has been understood for a long time, so stating "...Our manufacturer has designed around the old problem buy better design and the use of better/more resilient components" requires more explanation, especially when many other established playes in the ESC game still recommend capacitors in parallel.

 

Edited by MattyB
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One point about 4Max motors is that many of them have the shaft coming out through the backplate which means the shaft often has to be cut off or it projects through the mount and engine bulkhead.  Some other suppliers  motors have the shaft coming out the opposite end to the backplate which I find more convenient.  

The 4Max website has lots of info that is worth reading.

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George is up there in the top tier of UK based online suppliers.   I have had loads of kit from him from bags of connectors to full planes, lots of LiPos (upon which I commented on another thread recently), ESCs, motors and chargers.   He gives sound advice and excellent service.

 

I inadvertently crossed the battery input polarity on an excellent 4 channel charger and he replaced it at cost (my fault), the new one had a fault, he sent a third on the basis that the courier would collect the second, delivered next door so the return was not collected and I now have three, one runs only on mains and the second only on 12v.   The third goes to the flying site.

 

along with the luminaries at Modelshop Leeds, Ian Shaw at Modelfixings, Jettstream for Yeti and several others, he’s a key supplier in my view.   No doubt most of his products come from China, with which I have severe issues, but at least he is turning his profit and providing backup and free advice.   No doubt enough time scouring the inter web and waiting ages might  source similar goods with different branding but, as one of our emigre posters has just observed about polishing ic engines on a parallel thread, life is too short.

 

Good enough for Peter Miller….

 

oh and Laser, Wheelspin, SLEC, Steve Webb; rather a lot to mention.   We see too many posts bemoaning the loss of yet another LMS (not ours, Leeds, so I deliberately support them by buying fuel, models, bits, servos etc and get very good service from them. ).  To a large extent the LMS has been driven down by t’interweb and then supplanted by it.   There’s room for both, without needing to shop offshore.

 

BTC

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16 hours ago, kc said:

One point about 4Max motors is that many of them have the shaft coming out through the backplate which means the shaft often has to be cut off or it projects through the mount and engine bulkhead.  Some other suppliers  motors have the shaft coming out the opposite end to the backplate which I find more convenient.  

The 4Max website has lots of info that is worth reading.

George at 4-max told me how to cut off that shaft.

Take a small polythene bag. Make a tiny hole in it and slide that over the shaft and tape the bag tightly round the motor.

30 seconds with a cutting disc in a Dremel and the job is done. Almost too simple and easy!!

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19 hours ago, kc said:

One point about 4Max motors is that many of them have the shaft coming out through the backplate which means the shaft often has to be cut off or it projects through the mount and engine bulkhead.  Some other suppliers  motors have the shaft coming out the opposite end to the backplate which I find more convenient.  

The 4Max website has lots of info that is worth reading.

I reverse the shaft which is easy to do. Remove the circlip, loosen the grub screw and tap the shaft out. Tap back in fit circlip and tighten the grub screw. 

 

No problem.

 

Steve

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OK, a shaft can be reversed or cut off but it would be so much nicer to be able to buy a motor with the shaft already at the correct end, so it would be good if 4Max could supply already reversed!   If it's as easy as suggested then why cannot they supply ready changed?  Perhaps a 'special' for the plan built models that use a backplate mount.  I don't want to modify brand new motors before use.  

 

I note that 4Max "Value Power Pack" motors have the shaft the other way to their general ones.   Worth considering for a smallish model at about 25 pounds for motor , ESC, 2 props and 3 servos and connectors fitted.

Edited by kc
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There is a point of view that if the shaft needs to be cut off then you are mounting the motor the wrong way round!

If you mount the motor with the fixed part on the firewall so the whole of the motor, prop and spinner are in front, then any imbalance in the prop and spinner will cause large forces where the motor is mounted to the firewall.

I had trouble with a long motor (a 2832) mounted this way in my WOT4. No matter how well I tried to get the prop/spinner balanced I had significant vibration at high throttle. The solution was to build a ply box so the motor mounted with the fixed part forwards, so the motor body was behind the firewall and the prop/spinner were in front. This then means all the rotating parts are much closer to the mounting, and in my case completely cured the vibration problem.

 

Mike

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58 minutes ago, Peter Miller said:

I know KC and then to make it perfect for you why don'e the screw on the propeller mounting for to save that tedious job.

Extrapolating this idea further he should sell ARTF foamy like

 

ripmax/Chris Foss WOT4 Foam-E Mk2+ from 4-Max £197.99 New Version (A-CF020A) - In Stock

 

In stock ?!

 

But as we all know the traditional build and solving the little problems that crop up on the way is where all of the fun is. 

 

Steve

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Oh what  a fuss I caused!    I just thought it would be nice if the recommended supplier of motors for Peter's plan built models sold motors that could be used without hacking the shaft short or hammering the shaft through!   I thought it might improve sales!

Many engineering books say that if one removes a circlip then it should not be reused, so that's one reason to avoid reversing the shaft - lack of a replacement circlip.   Of course one does re-use circlips in an emergency - if you can find where they have sprung to on the workshop floor! 

 

As for me buying an ARTF foam models - very unlikely!   Just ask my clubmates - I fly proper balsa models!  

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4 hours ago, Mike Blandford said:

 

If you mount the motor with the fixed part on the firewall so the whole of the motor, prop and spinner are in front, then any imbalance in the prop and spinner will cause large forces where the motor is mounted to the firewall.

 

Totally agree although sometimes, and especially for small motors, convenience and ease gets in the way of engineering integrity. Some of the longer outrunner motors for this reason also use a skirt bearing screwed to the non supported end of the can with the shaft running through it so the whole can is, in effect, "locked" to the shaft.

 

The best mounting of a motor is as described above but also with a support bar with a bearing in it running across the back of the motor secured to the fuselage sides as that gives it total support, or, if mounted the other way round then in a cage of it's own, Dualsky used to offer that as a solution.    

 

Plenty of E Clip or circle C clips of all sizes on E bay.

Edited by Philip Lewis 3
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