Dry Weather

[GrumpyGnome]

A few weeks ago, we acquired a new Labrador puppy, limiting my visits to the flying field (prior to this, I'd be there most days). When I visited the field after a few weeks away, I was amazed at the state of it.... (for background, the North of our field is flat, with a slight slope on the South side)

•  
• The flat area was brown, and dusty, the grass hadn't grown in the three weeks since it had previously been cut
• The slop was green, resulting in a two-tone field
• Every landing, and take off, was accompanied by a dust trail
• The grain field, belonging to our farmer landlord, was similar, with green stalks to the South, and brown/yellow stalks to the North

 

(I actually commented on the dryness and two-tone nature on our club Wotsapp group and on here...)

 

On Friday, our landlord commented on the dryness of both our field, and the adjoining crop field, expressing concern that "... a hot petrol engine..... causing a significant fire..."

 

As a committee, we thought we had a number of options:

 

a) Somehow allay his fears as baseless

b) Insist all fliers have a fire extinguisher ready to hand (currently a recommendation)

c) Try and restrict over-flying of his crop

d) Temporarily cease use of the models causing him concern.

 

After some debate, we decided that the best, and fairest course of action, to ensure goodwill and continued use of the field, was to temporarily cease flying of any craft powered by electricity, nitromethane, petrol, or diesel.  

 

We expect this to last until either the crop is harvested (about three weeks by the look of it), or significant rainfall.  It seems likely that if the crop is harvested first, we'll need to insist on fire extinguishers.

 

We've had some feedback from members, but largely along the lines that we've over-reacted, we should have involved the fire brigade, we should have involved BMFA, we should have persuaded him that our models won't cause a fire, it's setting a dangerous precedent.  All things we have considered and most dismissed as being not immediate enough.

 

What do you all think? Right decision, wrong decision? Have you had similar issues?

Edited July 11, 2022 by GrumpyGnome

[Frank Skilbeck]

Not quite as bad here, but the crop of oats in the next field is just about ready to harvest and is very dry, but our farmer hasn't raised any concerns.

 

Never any harm in promoting goodwill, and if our field yesterday was anything to go by then the glider pilots should be enjoying booming thermals.

 

One thing that might allay the farms fears is your BMFA insurance, so worth checking if crop damage caused by a model fire would be covered.

[Trevor]

A couple of clubs down here temporarily ban turbines when the surrounding crops are at this stage but  conventional i.c. and electric flying continues.

[GrumpyGnome]

24 minutes ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

One thing that might allay the farms fears is your BMFA insurance, so worth checking if crop damage caused by a model fire would be covered.

 

I have contacted BMFA and await a response.. that's quick and easy BMFA involvement that nay shorten our hiatus

Edited July 11, 2022 by GrumpyGnome

[Chris Walby]

IMO, total over reaction and complete nanny state approach. Sorry but I have yet to see a model catch fire following a crash (3D model with smoke system at Great Gransden show caught fire mid flight - fire crew put it out once it stopped flying).

 

A preventative approach with fire extinguishers and usual contact details for emergency services IMHO would be sufficient, but then again if members of the club do crash frequently with resulting fire frequently perhaps abstaining is the better idea.

[Nigel R]

I can see banning turbines.

 

 

47 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

temporarily cease flying of any craft powered by electricity, nitromethane, petrol, or diesel.  

 

I guess I'd be alright to continue using straight methanol fuel then?

 

 

[GrumpyGnome]

7 minutes ago, Nigel R said:

ess I'd be alright to continue using straight methanol fuel then?

In our communication, we used the term glow-powered 🙂

We didn't quote turbines or pulse jets, but did cover cars, just in case...

[Nigel R]

wow, pulse jets, now there's a thing of much fire

 

(apologies for banter on serious thread)

[GrumpyGnome]

15 minutes ago, Chris Walby said:

IMO, total over reaction and complete nanny state approach. Sorry but I have yet to see a model catch fire following a crash (3D model with smoke system at Great Gransden show caught fire mid flight - fire crew put it out once it stopped flying).

 

A preventative approach with fire extinguishers and usual contact details for emergency services IMHO would be sufficient, but then again if members of the club do crash frequently with resulting fire frequently perhaps abstaining is the better idea.

I have never seen a glow or petrol plane crash and catch fire either - but I, like our landlord, can use Youtube. Unlike our landlord, I can tell the difference between motive power used.

Domestic fire extinguishers will have zero impact on a crop fire. Our nearest fire station is 11 miles away - they'd not try to stop the fire, they'd prevent it damaging property.

No, we don't crash any more often than other clubs I don't believe.

[Ron Gray]

You may have well just banned all flying, with the exception of chuck gliders.

 

Turbines, yes and maybe petrol but the rest?

[GrumpyGnome]

We pretty much have tbh. I have a couple of rubber powered planes, a chuckie, and a DLG but reckon I'm pretty much the only one.

 

It was petrol planes that concerned the farmer, but he won't know the difference between Glow and Petrol, so they had to be lumped together as 'ic'. Then the ic members started pointing out the higher risk of fire from LiPos, so all leccy flight got added. We're trying to pull back from the decision with facts and assurances but we felt we needed to make a decision that would not result in him removing our access totally, and permanently. My current view us that until we have concrete evidence re insurance cover, and his crop is harvested, the hiatus will continue. After that, we may have to strenghthen our position re extinguishers. Lots of this is about the optics, as our political reporters say....

[GrumpyGnome]

Sorry if I'm coming across as defensive.... Experiences, thoughts, are appreciated.

[Geoff Copping]

At our club, for as long as I can remember, we have always had a turbine and petrol ban around harvest time.

 

There's a sign that goes up at the gate for the duration of the ban. Everyone accepts it as our field is completely surrounded by tinder dry crops this time of year.

 

Our landlord farmer is most amicable and we've always maintained a good relationship with him through negotiation.

 

It is worth rembering that to the farmer his crops are his livelihood whereas, to us, our field is a hobby.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Oh come on you don't ban electrics !😵, I fly all sorts and yes electrics to jets ( the real paraffin ones ) and I have only had fires on electrics in the air and on the ground two to date,  nothing from petrols and methanols, with one exception a cox 50 years ago,  potentially a jet will crash and burn but have you ever seen one yourself ?, if you are going to ban flying ban it all !, no prejudice they can all burn even your petrol car that takes you down the field,,

 

 Ps any of you rich enough to smoke any more ?.🤣

[GrumpyGnome]

1 hour ago, Geoff Copping said:

It is worth rembering that to the farmer his crops are his livelihood whereas, to us, our field is a hobby.

 

This is a phrase/sentiment we've used dozens of times since we implemented our 'ban'........ some of our members think our hobby is more important than his livelihood......

[Nigel R]

4 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

My current view us that until we have concrete evidence re insurance cover, and his crop is harvested, the hiatus will continue

 

This summer is done. You've appeased the landlord. Take a break for a few weeks.

 

Plenty of time to get any required evidence together before next summer. And maybe educate about the difference between petrol / glow (the flash point and lowest combustion temperature would be the two key figures/points to get over, I think).

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Sounds like a rock n a hard place GG. Situation that could end badly if not handled well, landlord and crop owner ?

Timescale, you don't have one at present, dropped in your lap now so has to be dealt with. Protect the relationship with your landlord first, then work on future measures to deal with same situations.

Can you guarantee no fire ? No, of course not, anything with a battery/esc etc in can cause a fire, you can point to your clubs record of not causing a  fire so far, and how you can deal with a fire should one occur, so you're left with insurance angle to explain to your landlord.

Protect your clubs future, the crop owners concerns are legitimate.

[Glenn Philbrick]

Our field is also in a sorry stage it's on drained marsh land and now there are serious cracks in it, we've tried filling them in the past with only slight improvement it's surprising how deep some of them are. We also have rape on three sides! We always stop flying turbines at this time of year until the crops are harvested. 

[Glenn Philbrick]

On further thoughf, am I right to assume that if club had a fire as a result of our activities that we would be covered by our bmfa insurance?

[GrumpyGnome]

@Glenn Philbrickyes, BMFA confirmed this morning that damage to crops is covered.

 

We had hoped that confirmation of that, plus our concession to mandatory fire extinguishers, irrespective of motive power, would enable us to restart. But, after long discussions, the only way our landlord would sanction us flying again was to introduce a hard no-fly zone over the crops, plus the mandatory extinguishers.

 

This is Ok for some models but not for others and leaves us with three challenges:

 

• The main runway is East/West so either the landing approach or take off is compromised depending on wind direction
• We already have a no-fly zone to the South as that's the pits and parking area
• The land to the east has our nearest road so is relatively small.

 

So, I guess small and or slow models will be OK but larger, faster, planes will be in storage for a few weeks!  To help, we've had to temporarily relax our stance on car parking areas, and the pilots box to allow maximum opportunities to fly.

 

The farmer has also stated that if he does see an encroachment in the new no-fly zone, we'll have to stop all flying until the crop is harvested.  He did say he's expecting to have to harvest it this month as there has been no significant rain since February.  He did express his appreciation for our immediate action so we seem to have gained some brownie points there - must make sure we get that out there so the members that were most vocal about over-reacting can see being pro-active was positive 🙂

 

Not an ideal outcome but certainly far from the worst possible outcome.  

 

In the meantime, we're quietly looking for another site that will allow our ic powered planes,  and our larger electrics.

 

We've also learnt that our day rate for visitors is a third of that for the only other club in the area; other clubs do not allow visitors; some other clubs have had similar issues; one relatively local club is 'full' so can't accommodate visitors, even mid-week; one offered temporary membership for £45.

 

Thanks for letting me whinge!

[leccyflyer]

Hope it rains soon.

Edited July 11, 2022 by leccyflyer

[stu knowles]

Sorry can't understand any decision to stop i/c powered flying.  I have seen video of turbines bursting into flames on impact but never a glow/ petrol/ diesel powered model.

Since Lipos entered onto the scene they are by far the most common cause of unintended fires.  I particularly worry when a lekky powered model is lost in a cornfield.  If it were to be ingested into a combine and then start to burn then the consequences and potential final bill could easily exceed £250K for the combined harvester alone.

 

If you are going to ban anything at this time of year then Turbines and Lipo powered models are the obvious places to start.

 

As for extinguishing fires, on moorlands it is not uncomon to see fails provided to beat out fires. Probably of more use than a conventional fire extinguisher on crop fires??

[GrumpyGnome]

3 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

Hope it rains soon.

Never wished for rain before.... 

[kevin b]

Interesting thread.

On a technical note, any spark can cause a fire.

Very low risk - but, a steel prop nut hitting a hard stone, or the battery in a glider shorting out on impact are too possibilities.

To cease flying for a minimal period is really the only option.

We are lucky that our farmer only grows sheep, but next door another farmer is growing barley this year, so we are keeping an eye on it as it is in direct line with the strip. 

 

It would appear that global warming is having multiple effects on our hobby as well as life generally. The winters are wetter for longer and we are now also seeing hotter, windier summers.

[kevin b]

4 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Never wished for rain before.... 

Remember 2012 ?