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Notam Notification?????


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12 minutes ago, EvilC57 said:

It’s not just us. How many times have we seen TV news (particularly on the BBC) postponed because they’re covering a sporting event such as tennis or football. We’re not all sport mad, but it seems the rest of us have to make way for those who are.

Sadly, it does seem that way. I guess we all need promote the hobby and open our doors to more people, easier said than done of course.

Edited by Chris Berry
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The idea behind modellerss using 2.4gig was for point to point, line of sight communication with the model.

The transmission is very directional, and line of sight means not very far away. This results in 1000s of users on the band not interfering with each other.

Fly towards an airport, a military base or Buckingham Palace and you will encounter problems.

 

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Apologies, I missed the edit and a line of two was missing from above.

Microwaves from our gear do not bounce off the atmosphere like many radio waves and they don't much like any obstacles.

This makes our transmission pretty unique to where we operate and that we see our model. 

RF jamming is similarly unique, would be short range, no way over the horizon, through forrests, and huge buildings, and would need an antenna for each frequency target so is not simple to operate sucessfully, but our gear uses specific frequencies and the jamming would match that.

Flying outside the fence should leave you ok but fly beyond the fence and expect interferrance .

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Not unless you stand right up against the antenna.

What worries me is that RF range is undefinable due to effects that can reflect, refract and attenuate the signal. They may have erred on the side of caution and made it stronger than it needs to be and will affect the region outside the no fly area.

I wonder if they have covered 27MHz, 35Mhz, 459Mhz and 868MHz, all legitimate R/C frequencies in the UK? If they have, any terrorist would almost certainly avoid those.

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It seems completely wrong that Midland aeromodellers should have to give up their hobby so that foreigners can come to England to enjoy their own hobby. 

Perhaps we should have a mass flight - just like the recent 100 year one - to support the Midlanders in protest at this infringement of our hobby ( flying where it's legal of course ) Make sure it gets the same publiicity as the 100 year stunt got!

 

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52 minutes ago, kc said:

It seems completely wrong that Midland aeromodellers should have to give up their hobby so that foreigners can come to England to enjoy their own hobby. 

Perhaps we should have a mass flight - just like the recent 100 year one - to support the Midlanders in protest at this infringement of our hobby ( flying where it's legal of course ) Make sure it gets the same publiicity as the 100 year stunt got!

 

What we could do in due course and lawfully is an event which showcases the hobby. The world record attempt was a good one and was featured in the press, perhaps more events like that with camera crews present would be good. However, as with most things journalists would turn a story to fit a narrative, irrespective of reality.

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12 hours ago, kc said:

It seems completely wrong that Midland aeromodellers should have to give up their hobby so that foreigners can come to England to enjoy their own hobby. 

 

 

Except for many of the athletes it's not a hobby, it's their livelihood. And I don't think you'd get tens of thousands watching us fly our planes for a number of days.

 

Think of the furore if the authorities did nothing and a terrorist flew an explosive drone into a packed stadium; the minor inconvenience a few are facing for a few weeks would pale into insignificance......

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It's not a minor inconvenience if all the model flyers in an area the size of Birmingham are banned from enjoying their hobby for a few weeks. That's a major inconvenience  for those model flyers.

 

There are packed stadia around the entire country year round - would we want to see model flying grounded within flying range of those stadia on matchdays? It's a complete nonsense and does nothing to mitigate the miniscule risk that a terrorist might make a remote controlled aerial attack on a stadium. 

 

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13 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

 

Think of the furore if the authorities did nothing and a terrorist flew an explosive drone into a packed stadium; the minor inconvenience a few are facing for a few weeks would pale into insignificance......


I suspect that any terrorist likely to do that is unlikely to either take notice of any NOTAM or to take heed of the BMFA’s recent message….

 

And he or she won’t fly their drone from a club field in the area, they will just drive to a convenient nearby location, get the drone out and launch it.

 

Brian.

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The issue here is that the NOTAM gives notification of jamming technology being operated on the legitimate frequencies which are used for all manner of applications, so whilst adherence to the no-fly zone described in the NOTAM doesn't affect any nefarious activity, whilst the jamming, if deployed, affects everyone.  There is also the usual excuse raised that of legitimate, law abiding users are all grounded that makes the nefarious users easier to detect in the sterile airspace.

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I note the NOTAM is a week early in that the Games do not commence until the 28th July. Further this period supposedly only cover drones, stated in the documents. AS from the 28th July till 9th August all unmanned aircraft. On review and looking at my OS Map it would appear the Club I use are in fact on the Boundary. The annoying thing is no notification to us via the BMFA, unless it disappeared into the e mail ether.

Given we have to have CAA Registration they should have e mailed us or at the very least be aware of model flying sites and notify Club's. 

 

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Aeromodellers in the Midlands would be better off if they were not BMFA members as they would not have heard of any ban so would fly as usual and if questioned could claim correctly to have not known of any ban!    That's what all the lone drone flyers will do.

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35 minutes ago, kc said:

Aeromodellers in the Midlands would be better off if they were not BMFA members as they would not have heard of any ban so would fly as usual and if questioned could claim correctly to have not known of any ban!    That's what all the lone drone flyers will do.

Ignorance being no defence in law. Anyone using airspace has a responsibility to check notams.

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Whilst it may be correct that ignorance is no defence I would expect that any magistrate would let off a drone flyer who had never heard of a 'Notam'.     But admit you had the notice from BMFA yet still flew and you can bet a heavy penalty will be applied.     

 

Frankly I believe the BMFA should have challenged this particular ruling with even more effort as allowing it to go unchallenged in law will set a precedent in future.   Take it to the High Court etc if necessary and use our subs for the purpose we paid them over the decades.    Thin end of the wedge.     Fail to act now and this can only get worse.   Nobody seemed to challenge the no fly areas for the London Olympics and now it sems to be more extensive this time.

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Just a thought, but do you think it might help if we all referred to what we do as a sport, rather than a hobby? The Sports Council (now Sport England) recognised model flying as a sport 30 years or so ago and it doesn't help if some of us continue to call it a hobby, - like stamp collecting or embroidery. Maybe that's how some outsiders see us.

 

Model flying, and certainly RC flying, has a lot of the elements of other sports, - man and machine, man versus the elements, hand and eye coordination, fast reactions, so let's not sell ourselves short.

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1 hour ago, kc said:

Whilst it may be correct that ignorance is no defence I would expect that any magistrate would let off a drone flyer who had never heard of a 'Notam'.     But admit you had the notice from BMFA yet still flew and you can bet a heavy penalty will be applied.     

 

Frankly I believe the BMFA should have challenged this particular ruling with even more effort as allowing it to go unchallenged in law will set a precedent in future.   Take it to the High Court etc if necessary and use our subs for the purpose we paid them over the decades.    Thin end of the wedge.     Fail to act now and this can only get worse.   Nobody seemed to challenge the no fly areas for the London Olympics and now it sems to be more extensive this time.

Isn’t this the reason for flyer and operator IDs?  That “innocently ignorant” drone flyer has officially demonstrated his knowledge of his responsibilities and will be likely to feel the full weight of the law or is also operating illegally as an unregistered flyer and therefore in even deeper water. 
 

Perhaps this is what Andy’s confused icon represents?  I fully understand your concern that our representative organisation appears to be accepting a statement from the police that while the legislation allows for applications for exemptions, they are refusing to consider them on their merits. 
 

Could the next step be private aviation bans appearing for lesser events?  Are 40000 football fans on a Saturday afternoon not equally vulnerable to an airborne terrorist threat?  Unchallenged, I suspect there could be a tangible threat to our interests, whether they are a hobby or a sport. 

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Surely it's the principle that's important - in this case it seems that the police have been able to veto all model flying in the area.   That's the thing that we should challenge - they should be allowing reasonable ( i.e normal club flying etc )   If this  goes unchallenged they will be able to do the same for any event- just one policeperson will have the say whether flying can take place.   That's wrong.   It should be a considered approach as it has been in recent years - negotiated reasonable terms.

Model flying is doomed if we do nothing about this.   There is no point in the BMFA having money in the bank if we cannot fly!   Use the money ( if necessary) for it's proper purpose.

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typically my two clubs are on or near border one near Gailey the other one near Lichfield. map not very clear, BMFA know the location so would have been helpfull if we were warned either way individually as with email. put the Jammers by the stadiums full of people to protect them ??.

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Apart from the BMFA recommendations not to overfly people, livestock and buildings,

It is common safety sense not to overfly these,

yet some people chose to do so, for example airports.

Now, as requests not to overtly have been ignored, radio operated and GPS sensitive equipment will be jammed.

As the equipment flown senses loss of signal, it should land, and cannot return home due to GPS jamming,

And the recovered craft will be used in evidence.

Jamming is not indiscrininate, but is focused at a prescribed range around protected areas and can be adjusted from 100m to 2km.

I for one would not chance being airborne.

Edited by Denis Watkins
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