Experienced instructor requires your help.

[David Davis 2]

Good day gentlemen.

 

For the past three years I have been trying to teach my Belgian friend Frans how to fly. We have been using three aircraft: two vintage models, a Junior 60 and a Radio Queen both electric powered and the club's Seagull Boomerang powered by an OS46AX. Three weeks ago I thought I had succeeded when Frans soloed the Radio Queen for the first time. Since then he has flown the Radio Queen three times and crashed it twice on take-off.

 

I think that the first crash was caused by him trying to haul the model off the ground with inadequate speed. It stalled and was extensively damaged.

 

Yesterday we had three flights with the model. I test-flew it to check that all was well after the repairs and apart from a few adjustments of trim the model flew splendidly. We then rebound the receiver to Frans's transmitter because he is Mode 1 and I am Mode 2. He managed to take off but when in the air he seemed to use inputs which were too coarse as the model was zooming about the sky in an uncontrolled manner. I talked him into reducing power and then he managed to fly the thing normally once things had calmed down and he affected a good landing. On the next take-off the model veered off to the left and ended up in a tree. We were able to retrieve it with a bamboo pole in the undercarriage but at the last minute it slipped free of the pole and crashed to the ground causing more extensive damage.

 

Learning to fly is not a linear process but it appears that Frans is going backwards and losing confidence. When I was learning I cannot recall having a problem with taking off. You pushed the stick forward watched the model accelerate, waited for the tail to start flying, a little more speed, then a dab of up elevator if necessary and it's airborne but I had a free flight and control-line background so had some understanding of basic aerodynamics something which modern beginners do not have.

 

We plan to meet up on Saturday and fly the Boomerang. The weather forecast is good but the club is holding an EGM In the morning so we may expect a fair turnout. Non-flying pilots sit out in nice weather about thirty metres from the runway. If one of Frans's take-offs goes pear shaped I fear that someone could be injured.

 

So what's the solution? Back to the buddy box? Another instructor? I have been a club-level instructor for over twenty-five years but I am at my wit's end in this situation.

[GrumpyGnome]

Much as I hate to say it, thus may he a case for a SAFE style system.  He would he able to rake off in a straight line, and depending on which setting he was using, have full, partial, or no stabilisation in the air.  Could increase his stick time, and confidence. 

[toto]

Back to the buddy box for now maybe. If it were me .... I would be requesting it to my mentor.

 

Toto

[Rich Griff]

Do things start going wrong during the take off phase, or a few seconds after ?

 

The Tx has "rates" I assume ?

 

Does your friend fully understand the "abort take off" principal before actual take off ?

 

There is no shame whatsoever in an aborted take off attempt 

 

Fighting a take off run, and fighting a lift off an climb out, is not how it's done.

 

How do free flighers do it ?

 

Perhaps an old style "indicator" needs fastening to the Tx, or s white line down the runway.

 

Have any "wag it's tail during a very long take off run" excersices been done.

 

You may have a very short runway, seems trees are quite close ???

 

Pit him back on a buddy lead for more practise, no shame involved.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Gray]

It sounds a bit like my experiences with my brother who suffered a stroke several years ago. Up to then he was a very competent pilot, I would say B cert level although he hadn’t got the B, ‘just’ the A.

 

Due to his stroke he can have difficulty if he quickly has to alter flight direction L/R, U /D. Because of this he always flies on the buddy lead with me but the only flying I control is the take off, the rest, including landings is him. We fly his various models like this and he seems quite happy as he doesn’t end up with a bag of bits to take home plus his confidence in his own ability is increasing. This is a slow process and has been ongoing for the last 3 years although he doesn’t come flying every week. My feeling is that he may well never get off the buddy system but what the heck does it really matter if it gives him a chance to fly?

[Cuban8]

It's very rare, but sometimes learning to fly an R/C aeroplane is simply beyond a particular individuals ability no matter what one does to help them. I know of one older chap in my club who's been 'learning' for over ten years and simply doesn't get it - he's always at least two or three seconds behind the model on a good day, and on an off day.....well the model might as well be free flight. Not just a matter of age in this case, he's been into models and crashing them for decades.

[leccyflyer]

2 hours ago, David Davis 2 said:

Good day gentlemen.

 

For the past three years I have been trying to teach my Belgian friend Frans how to fly. We have been using three aircraft: two vintage models, a Junior 60 and a Radio Queen both electric powered and the club's Seagull Boomerang powered by an OS46AX. Three weeks ago I thought I had succeeded when Frans soloed the Radio Queen for the first time. Since then he has flown the Radio Queen three times and crashed it twice on take-off.

 

I think that the first crash was caused by him trying to haul the model off the ground with inadequate speed. It stalled and was extensively damaged.

 

Yesterday we had three flights with the model. I test-flew it to check that all was well after the repairs and apart from a few adjustments of trim the model flew splendidly. We then rebound the receiver to Frans's transmitter because he is Mode 1 and I am Mode 2. He managed to take off but when in the air he seemed to use inputs which were too coarse as the model was zooming about the sky in an uncontrolled manner. I talked him into reducing power and then he managed to fly the thing normally once things had calmed down and he affected a good landing. On the next take-off the model veered off to the left and ended up in a tree. We were able to retrieve it with a bamboo pole in the undercarriage but at the last minute it slipped free of the pole and crashed to the ground causing more extensive damage.

 

Learning to fly is not a linear process but it appears that Frans is going backwards and losing confidence. When I was learning I cannot recall having a problem with taking off. You pushed the stick forward watched the model accelerate, waited for the tail to start flying, a little more speed, then a dab of up elevator if necessary and it's airborne but I had a free flight and control-line background so had some understanding of basic aerodynamics something which modern beginners do not have.

 

We plan to meet up on Saturday and fly the Boomerang. The weather forecast is good but the club is holding an EGM In the morning so we may expect a fair turnout. Non-flying pilots sit out in nice weather about thirty metres from the runway. If one of Frans's take-offs goes pear shaped I fear that someone could be injured.

 

So what's the solution? Back to the buddy box? Another instructor? I have been a club-level instructor for over twenty-five years but I am at my wit's end in this situation.

Do you not think that you might be being a wee bit impatient with this chap?

 

ISTR it was only a few weeks ago that you were made up that he had gone solo for the first time after a long period of tuition and it ought not be altogether unexpected if, having achieved that, he has the odd mishap.  Perhaps put him back on the buddy lead for at least the take off phase for a wee while and see how he gets on. Some folks do seem to take an age to get to a basic level of competence and some may never achieve it. I recall a flying pal of mine many years ago tried to learn for at least six or seven years and was still on the buddy box, but that was due in no small way to the fact that he flew infrequently. He liked building and the occasional flight with an instructor was enough for him.

 

One other thing, if your non-flying pilots are routinely sitting in a nice spot thirty metres from the runway, but are in significant danger of being hit by a take off that goes awry, perhaps either the student really isn't ready to be taking off, or they ought not be sitting there?

[Cuban8]

I'd love to play a musical instrument - my family are quite musical and I have older cousins who formed a band in the early 60s and toured Germany as support with some  well known names in the pop world of the time. My daughter seems to have the gift and plays the flute. My dad and my uncle also played.

I'm not tone deaf and  have a sense of rythmn, but playing an instrument is simply beyond me.  I badly wanted to play electric guitar in my 20s but simply 'played' it badly despite many, many hours of making a noise practising over and over again and even with help -  knocking out a tune by sheer muscle memory or following a chord book, but with no real understanding  or feel for the instrument. I'm so envious of those who can pick up a guitar and go right into a tune on request. 

I just can't do it.

So I sympathise with those who struggle with flying despite not being able to manage even the simplest things in flying that most of us take for granted.

[Martin Dance 1]

A couple of thoughts come to mind. The first was triggered by mentioning your F/F and C/L background, yep you and me both. Could you pursuade your friend to build and then trim and fly a simple F/F model? It would teach him about how a model is constructed and then how to trim the model for flight. Of course it depends whether you can fly F/F at your site. I'm thinking of a model around 30" span 0.75 to 1cc diesel engine. Aiming for about a 50 feet max altitude and around half a minute flight times. C/L of course allows you to actually 'feel' the aircraft.  Second thought the Junior 60 was as we all know a F/F design. Why not trim the J60 F/F style and get you friend to fly it Rudder only for a while. You can do the whole flight this way just using the throttle as 'elevator' control. Final thought could it be that flying mode 1 is the issue, consider getting your friend to try mode 2, I obviously don't know the guy so don't know if that's feasible.

[John Lee]

Both the Radio Queen & Junior 60 have their undercarriages a long way forward of the CG and as a result are unstable on the ground with a marked tendency to ground loop. Unless you are 'ahead' of the model with the controls it is almost bound to veer on take off. Frans is not yet in that position of anticipation by the sound of it.

 

Short of modifying the undercarriage I'd suggest hand launching those models and let Frans get time in the air to build confidence & experience. Practice circuits with the Boomerang & its tricycle U/C.

[Phil Green]

Could it be an eyesight problem?   get him to read a car number plate at a distance?

[Ernie]

Hi David, Racing cyclists talk a lot about marginal gains..A wee bit here, a wee bit there.

Maybe you've got marginal losses 

Frans, if I remember is no spring chicken, and Mode 1 teaching mode 2, and different languages, and electricity one day, glo the next

It's never easy 

ernie

[David Davis]

Thank you for your responses gentlemen, I will give them all some thought.

 

Frans is 70 and has chosen to learn to fly Mode 1 because everybody in the club except me flies Mode 1. The idea was that one of my French colleagues could take him up as he learned to fly but few have come forward. Frans's first language is Flemish and when I first started to teach him how to fly, I asked him whether he wanted to receive instructions in English or French and he chose English. In the Flemish-speaking areas of Belgium, the first foreign language that children learn at school is English. The same is true in the French-speaking areas. Both of us speak French to a standard which enables us to be understood though Frans thinks that he does not speak the language well.

 

I have attached a little video of the Radio Queen's maiden and second flights shot by Frans and his wife Ann. I was on the sticks. You can get a good idea of our flying field. I believe that the runway is 85 metres long by 10 metres wide. At 00.54 you may see the small shed in which we keep our outside chairs. This is where the blokes sit out on nice days. The trees into which the Radio Queen crashed are in the distance behind my white VW van.  However, yesterday the wind, a very gentle breeze, was blowing in the opposite direction so the model ended up in the tree behind the point at which it began the take-off run.  

 

They also filmed me flying my Super Sixty and taking off along the taxi way. As no-one else was about I thought it safer than attempting a cross-wind take off. You may see me panic and hit the throttle as the model disappeared behind the trees at 02.24 and the landing was a bit hot! My dog inevitably photobombs at every opportunity. Please make allowances for Frans' first language is not English.

 

The undercarriage on the Radio Queen seems to me to be in a pretty conventional position. It is not raked as far forward as a Quaker Flash for example. In any case it's an academic issue until the model is repaired. I forgot to mention that on another flight Frans' model hit the little shed on take off. I believe that he freezes on the controls.

 

I will put him back on the buddy box on Sunday when we will fly the Boomerang. I will do the take offs. I have also asked the club's secretary and Chief Flying Instructor to take him up on another of the club's trainers. It's a bit lighter than the Boomerang and can fly more slowly.

 

Apparently the video is too big to fit directly onto this site. I'll try a link via YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx8MphHxj9U

Edited May 9 by David Davis

[Peter Beeney]

Hi David,

I think if I was in your position there would be absolutely no question, it would be definitely be a buddy box again, at least for a while. A situation such as you describe, one in which someone could get hurt simply because someone else was unable to control their model properly I think might be a total disaster for everyone, from my own personal safety angle I couldn't accept this. I would have to say to myself that it was an ‘avoidable accident.’

I would be tempted to get the Boomerang out on the runway and get him to taxi a short distance keeping it as straight as possible and then shutting the throttle and coming to a standstill. Repeat a few times and then moving on making sure he has the instant correct reaction without thinking, i.e. closing the throttle! when he sees the model veering off to one side, I'm sure he will soon get the confidence to handle the model on the ground because he can now hopefully recognise straight away when it's all going a bit pete tong and then from there it's only a tiny step into the air…… and a circuit and land….. Once he can do this 10 times out of 10 with no issues maybe I would consider pulling the plug…. again
 
But I also do appreciate that's saying this it's all within the confines of your friend’s tolerance level, the club rules and your other friends and copilots acceptance levels so it might well continue to be a bit protracted perhaps, to say the very least.

 

Good Luck!

 

PB

[kc]

All the comments so far seem applicable but my first thought was finger trouble -- as you get old then fingers become stiff sometimes and that could have been the cause of inputs which were too coarse.    Mode 1 of course uses both hands for control so having the left thumb ( or left fingers ) go stiff for a moment would give excessive elevator movements while ailerons/rudder is unaffected.    A right handed person does not use the left hand so much in normal life (elevator hand for Mode 1 ) so perhaps stiffness can occur.   

Using a buddy lead would be better for a while as you cannot grab the Tx in emergency due to wrong Mode.

 

 

 

David - your comments on language is interesting.  Most of the world now speaks English it seems!

[Robin Colbourne]

If Frans is flying with his thumbs on top of the sticks?  it may be that he is putting so much pressure on it that he can't feel when the stick is centred.  Try getting him to use a neckstrap and hold the sticks between thumb and forefinger.  This way it is much easier to feel where the sticks are in relation to the centre.   There will be no shortage of people saying that they fly with thumbs and cope fine, however the issue here is to make life easier for Frans.

A neckstrap will allow Frans to  balance the transmitter on his fingers, letting him relax more rather than gripping it, which generally would make him more tense all over.  You might also try getting Frans to sit on either a shooting stick or a chair when flying.  Either should help him relax even more (as we get older our balance deteriorates, so sitting means one less thing for hte brain to do). 

Find out the minimum power setting it takes to get the model airborne and use only a little more than this.  Excess power makes things happen more quickly.  The Radio Queen were designed as 'guided fre-flight models, so should be able to take off by themselves with almost no interference from the pilot.  From watchign the video, I would say that the Radio Queen could use a little more up trim, as it seems to be dive and getting pulled up by the pilot as it flies along.

When flying on the buddy box, was the model properly trimmed on Frans' transmitter?  It should be possible to set the slave transmitter throttle at the same position as on the master transmitter, and when the buddy box switch is pulled, no change be observed in the model when Frans is 'hands off' the sticks.  If He is flying on his own transmitter, check it out yourself (I appreciate his is mode 1, but with a bit of height it shouldn't be too difficult.

Anyway, learnig in later years does take longer. Kudos to Frans for even attempting to learn.  Continue to encourage him and alwayts point out the parts of the flight that he did right as well as discussing the bits that need more practice.  You have a nice site for it, which is a good start!

Edited May 9 by Robin Colbourne

[Andy48]

I don't know what transmitter you are using with the buddy box, but I use 2 things on mine which could help in your situation. Firstly, a switch which disables the throttle on the trainer transmitter, so that I can control that still. Secondly I don't use a switch to enable the buddy box system, but the aileron joystick. With this I find I can take over control very quickly indeed just by moving that joystick in any direction.

[kc]

By using Franz 's Tx you have swopped to Tx that might not have the same settings for Expo etc or have some mix that does not occur when using the instructor Tx and buddy lead.  Somebody might have put expo or a mix in that is not so obvious to you.  Get a Mode 1 pilot to check.......

[Robin Colbourne]

WIht regard to buddy box switches, the sort that Futaba and JR used, which is hold for on and release for off, is my preferred type (and have it at the top left of the transmitter so your index finger holds it on.    You can retrofit other tyes with this switch from AliExpress.  One Position Spring-Back Switch (scroll through the different types to find it).

 

Edited May 9 by Robin Colbourne

[David Davis]

Thank you all again for your comments.

 

The Radio Queen was fitted with a motor, ESC, battery and propeller combination as recommended by a leading supplier of electric flight goods. This combination proved to be far too powerful for the model making it unpleasant to fly. We substitued it with something far less powerful. This meant of course that it required more runway to take off but once in the air the model now flies well. The problem is Frans crashing the model on take-off.  Anyway discussing flying the Radio Queen is academic until it is repaired.

 

Both Frans and I fly Spektrum equipment, I have a DX9 and Frans an NX8. I have to hold down a sprung button to give him control. I will take up the tip of using the neckstrap. I never use one but it could help in his case.

 

We do not have a problem when he is flying on the buddy box and I only recommended that he go solo once he had flown three successive ten minute flights on the buddy box without my having to take back control but we will go back to using the buddy box this weekend using the Boomerang. The trims are inspected before every flying session. I will have to test fly it anyway because I have removed my beloved Enya 50 and replaced it with an OS 46 AX which I picked up at a car boot sale sans silencer for a song.

 

As for stiff fingers I have noticed that one of Frans' fingers is deformed.

[Don Fry]

If I were Franz, having had a clutch of problems on the bounce, I would have shaky fingers. Turn the rates down, find some basics he can do and restore a bit of confidence. But unless there is a reason, he is a very slow learner, and might just be a  permanent buddy box user. 

[Don Fry]

My memory of Spectrum, default is the spring button to the left of the aerial, but there is a menu to assign it to any convenient switch. I find it hard work to hold a spring down for 10 minutes.

Edited May 9 by Don Fry

[Simon Burch 1]

1 hour ago, Robin Colbourne said:

WIht regard to buddy box switches, the sort that Futaba and JR used, which is hold for on and release for off, is my preferred type (and have it at the top left of the transmitter so your index finger holds it on.    You can retrofit other tyes with this switch from AliExpress.  One Position Spring-Back Switch (scroll through the different types to find it).

 

Completely agree.  Unfortunately, not all Futaba TXs are set up like this; our club's T6K TX had a selectable switch on the top-right hand side.  We had this changed to the configuration you suggest after a landing incident which occurred just before touchdown.  The instructor didn't have time to positively switch back to the master TX, and then move his hand back to the right-hand stick.  Nothing dangerous, but it wiped the undercarriage off the Club’s Riot.

[David Davis]

39 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

My memory of Spectrum, default is the spring button to the left of the aerial, but there is a menu to assign it to any convenient switch. I find it hard work to hold a spring down for 10 minutes.

 

If my finger tip becomes uncomfortable I always warn the trainee that I am about to change fingers and that momentarily I will retake control.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I just came back from the model field, 2 new members one over 50 the other 14, buddy box, mode 2 and limited throws on the beginners box, I loved

my old Futaba FC-18, you could give the student any of the channels Ie, aileron and rudder, with or without dual rates,  as it was endless what you could do, and I would need two pages to explain, but maybe with some of the newer radios this could be programmed on them.

 

I gave up long ago teaching new members to fly Mode 1, but I still fly a few of the clubs 'first' flights on mode 1,,,

 

 ps we use the cheap a2pro £50 radios .