Petrol?

[JackCook]

What petrol do you use in your plane engines? I ask as I can still buy regular unleaded petrol where I live. But I see UK petrol stations are now ethanol only.

Can my walbro carbs deal with ethanol? Or does it rot the diaphragms?

Or do you remove the ethanol as per the youtube scientists?

This may be a dumb question but I've never had to deal with ethanol before. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I only use 98 octane, in all my petrol engines, Car, motorbikes, garden tools and toy planes, 3% motul 2 stroke oil in the two strokes.

[Don Fry]

I use alcyl petrol from garden shops, for my small outboards and aircraft. Ethanol contaminated petrol is the devils invention for small engines if there is any risk of fuel remaining in the system. 
The 98 octane here in France has 5% ethanol, the rest, 10% ethanol. 
The stuff causes lumps of gummy stuff that blocks needles, causes corrosion, and rubber to harden.

I can service and repair outboards. I do my own. I charge full commercial rates, and still get repeat idiots coming back to me to refix the problems water contaminated fuel causes.

Larger outboards are more tolerant, but not much used by us. 
 

Alkyl petrol costs more, but stores for years. In the scheme of things, the extra cost is marginal. As I explain to my rich idiots moaning about the repair costs, use Alcyl, no bill, no reliability issues. 

[Bucksboy]

I use Aspen fuel, which seems to be the same as Dons alcyl in the post above.  The main reason I use it is for the reduced smell.  I couldn't stand the smell of petrol on the ride to the field.  There is still a smell with Aspen but it's nowhere near as strong, plus all the associated benefits that Don lists.

I buy it from a garden machinery shop and then add my own oil to the correct ratio. 

 

[Brian Cooper]

I use the higher octane Shell V Power. 

 

It is more powerful than standard petrol, and it also has a longer "shelf" life... so it's a win, win. 

[Don Fry]

18 minutes ago, Brian Cooper said:

I use the higher octane Shell V Power. 

 

It is more powerful than standard petrol, and it also has a longer "shelf" life... so it's a win, win. 

But Shell themselves say it contains “no more than  5% ethanol.” Mercury outboards say of this type of fuel, use within a month. Now I suspect you are a high fuel user, as is Paul, and hence gets away with it. But you have to accept, not risk minimalising behavior. 

[JackCook]

Thanks for the comments folks. I had never heard of alcyl fuel. I will research more. 

I can buy 91, 95 and 98 octane without ethanol here. I use 95 or 98 with shell synthetic 2 stroke favoured by motocross riders.

My UK classic motorcycle friends are removing the ethanol from pump petrol to run in the old bikes. Which is fine for occasional runs but not a daily runner 🙂

[GrumpyGnome]

Take can to petrol station/supermarket

Fill it with 'super unleaded' or equivalent

Add some oil

Fly

Run engine until tank empty

 

Repeat

 

🙂 🙂

 

i am a bit of a heathen.....

[payneib]

I'm still trying to decide if motorcycle guys or toy aeroplane guys are worse about ethanol fuel. 

 

Use any old unleaded. In the UK that's either E5 or E10, if you're going to leave the engine sat for more than 6 months, either run it dry or use a fuel stabiliser (for the amounts we use in toy aeroplanes, running it dry is your best bet). 

 

The ethanol absorbs moisture from the air, does some chemistry, and eats your rubber fuel system components. If you're flushing it with fresh fuel on a regular basis (in use), and not leaving it sat in old fuel for 6+ months, it's fine. 

[Engine Doctor]

BP Ultimate or Shell V power if you want the diaphragms to last . The ethanol make diaphragms etc go hard and brittle especially while in storage . I use these fuels in my older  Hobby car hopefully to prevent any damage to the fuel system as it only gets driven every week to a fortnight. For models and my Mower I buy the normal E5 or 10 and remove the ethanol using the water method as these sit around more than they are used. I then also add a shot of Lucas fuel conditioner this raised thee octane rating back to where it should be . Models are always run  dry  at end of flying session : this goes for methanol engines as well to avoid water absorption.

[Wingman]

We use E5 petrol in our planes cos it's much cheaper than glow fuel and is very easy to buy at £6.50 per gallon - Aspen is £20 or more for 5 litres so you're back to glow fuel prices and availability - just daft!. A complete set of gaskets and diaphragms for chinese carbs cost about £10 off Ebay and takes half an hour to change. 

[Don Fry]

2 hours ago, payneib said:

I'm still trying to decide if motorcycle guys or toy aeroplane guys are worse about ethanol fuel. 

 

Use any old unleaded. In the UK that's either E5 or E10, if you're going to leave the engine sat for more than 6 months, either run it dry or use a fuel stabiliser (for the amounts we use in toy aeroplanes, running it dry is your best bet). 

 

The ethanol absorbs moisture from the air, does some chemistry, and eats your rubber fuel system components. If you're flushing it with fresh fuel on a regular basis (in use), and not leaving it sat in old fuel for 6+ months, it's fine. 

I get that statement from my customers, with a “I thought” added when I want an extra 200 euros off them to sort their outboard out. Or give up boating. 

[payneib]

2 hours ago, Don Fry said:

I get that statement from my customers, with a “I thought” added when I want an extra 200 euros off them to sort their outboard out. Or give up boating. 

Penny to a pinch of poop those outboards are sat in storage for half the year, with no stabiliser used. Either run it dry, or treat the fuel properly (all the way through the system) and you won't have any problems. 

[J D 8 - Moderator]

 Many a Coastguard callout I went on at the start of the season, those that did not start were not an issue for us. It was those that started and immediately headed out only for motor to stop and not restart. Then drifting away into the Irish sea.

[Shaun Walsh]

6 hours ago, payneib said:

I'm still trying to decide if motorcycle guys or toy aeroplane guys are worse about ethanol fuel. 

 

Use any old unleaded. In the UK that's either E5 or E10, if you're going to leave the engine sat for more than 6 months, either run it dry or use a fuel stabiliser (for the amounts we use in toy aeroplanes, running it dry is your best bet). 

 

The ethanol absorbs moisture from the air, does some chemistry, and eats your rubber fuel system components. If you're flushing it with fresh fuel on a regular basis (in use), and not leaving it sat in old fuel for 6+ months, it's fine. 

Certainly does eat rubber components,  especially if they are in the engine bay and get hot. Currently on my 3rd set of fuel hoses in a 53 year old VW.

Latest lot claims to be proof against 100% ethanol, for the price I paid it had better be!

[Frank Skilbeck]

I've been using regular E10 in an old Zenoah (that I replaced the diaphragm's on when I got it) a NGH38cc four stoke and 35cc 2 stroke. Yep if the elastomers are not rated for E10 they may degrade. The only other downside is that ethanol contains less energy that neat petrol, so slightly less power and higher fuel consumption.

 

Probably more harm done to diaphragms by allowing them to dry out.

[JackCook]

So two camps with opposing views on ethanol. 

I have another question. E5 is 98 octane (correct me if I'm wrong), what will be the octane once the ethanol is removed using the water method?

[Don Fry]

4 hours ago, J D 8 - Moderator said:

 Many a Coastguard callout I went on at the start of the season, those that did not start were not an issue for us. It was those that started and immediately headed out only for motor to stop and not restart. Then drifting away into the Irish sea.

That will be when the chewing gum blocked the jets. I charge 30 euros  for that conversation. Minimum fee for diagnosis. Then I charge 10 euros a minute to order new jets, work is guaranteed, I’m not messing with clearing jets. I fixit, it works.
Now this a boat, you float about if the boat stops. Say thank you if you need a tow, if you are nice.

 

[Jim Hearnden 1]

12 hours ago, Brian Cooper said:

I use the higher octane Shell V Power. 

 

It is more powerful than standard petrol, and it also has a longer "shelf" life... so it's a win, win. 

Just to clarify terminology here, higher octane isn't more powerful. Octane rating is anti-knock. Even with 4 stroke petrol engines you'll never get a high enough compression ratio to get knock or pre-ignition. But it does have less ethanol content. 

[Don Fry]

5 hours ago, payneib said:

Penny to a pinch of poop those outboards are sat in storage for half the year, with no stabiliser used. Either run it dry, or treat the fuel properly (all the way through the system) and you won't have any problems. 

Yes, use new fuel, chuck it out after a month, and it’s good to go. No forgetful moments. You are saying our airframes do not get the in storage treatment ( oh bother, the starters flat) and can’t empty the carb. Ethanol petrol is crap.
It also pays my flying costs. You can’t believe the earning potential, 3 sq meters of workshop, bring it when I say, i charge for storage. Mind, my customers are desperate, month of May, no starters, family on his case, no boat, didn’t sort it in November.

Bur my point still is, use Alcyl fuel, no issues.

Use ethanol contaminated fuel in non daily use devises, I for one have an income source what pays for my hobby. BTW, get cheeky about the lack of space, gets, go else where.

i think I’m out of this conversation.

I think, for the tiny cost, use Alcyl fuel. It’s easy reliable running, no storage problems.

If you think, ethanol petrol is good, you choose. Just use it quickly. No mistakes, memory lapses.

 

[Maninder]

I have quite a few items of garden machinery which are in regular (weekly) use during the summer months but not much during winter. My fuel of choice during the summer is Shall V-Power but towards the end of Autumn I switch to Alkyl based fuel (Aspen or equivalent) which can then sit in the machines over winter. I don't use E10 based petrol in my machines at all even though I'm quite happy to strip all types of carburettors, clean and replace the diaphragms etc.

 

Also, when servicing Walbro/Zama or even Chinese equivalent carbs, I try to use genuine Walbro/Zama diaphragm kits as most aftermarket ones are rubbish and don't last.

[Andy Stephenson]

I needed to service a petrol strimmer that wouldn't run. On checking that it was the carb at fault, I looked for a Walbro repair kit and the best price I could find was £14. I checked what the Chinese could offer and was delighted to find a complete carb replacement for £7 including shipping, it did take 5 weeks to arrive but I'm not that keen of a gardener anyway. Fitted, started first time, QED.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

6 minutes ago, Andy Stephenson said:

I needed to service a petrol strimmer that wouldn't run. On checking that it was the carb at fault, I looked for a Walbro repair kit and the best price I could find was £14. I checked what the Chinese could offer and was delighted to find a complete carb replacement for £7 including shipping, it did take 5 weeks to arrive but I'm not that keen of a gardener anyway. Fitted, started first time, QED.

Same here, diaphragm 10€, carburetor 13€ from China,,,

I have a few Chinese carb kits, fat10 and fat20, 10 for 15€ they all work well, and have different materials depending on what petrol you use.

[Engine Doctor]

The water method to remove ethanol is very simple . Just make sure you out doors , use stout plastic containers with proper screw on caps, dont use any metal funnels etc. Oh and ont smoke 😉. Seriously in my working like as a fireman i witnessed gross stupidity by smokers around flammables. 

A food dye or some printer ink added to the water makes it esy to remove water once it has settled. 

I also add some octane booster after removing the ethanol as ethanolis  the oil companies way of raising octane cheaply.

I  will have to try the water method on some Shell V power and BP Ultimate just to see if there is any ethanol added.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Engine Doctor

[Jim Hearnden 1]

Thinking on this, if you have an airfield local to you then go buy some u/l 91. This is unleaded petrol, made & distributed to strict aviation standards.

Definitely no Ethanol.

 

BP say:- Our unleaded Avgas grade UL91 is a dedicated aviation fuel providing an alternative to Mogas. Compared to Mogas, UL91 has an assured energy content with no alcohols or ethers which may reduce aircraft range. UL91 has a fixed volatility range and is designed to work year-round without seasonal variations.