Roger Dyke
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Orange Receiver Telemetry Problem
Roger Dyke replied to Roger Dyke's topic in General Radio Discussion
For more information see "Understanding the numbers" under the Spektrum/JR section. -
Just for interest.... I have just done some experimenting in my house with the Orange receiver and satellites on the kitchen table. Spektrum DX6 TX and Orange R620X receiver with two R110XL satellites connected. After binding them all together, I walked to another part of my house, sat down and switched the TX into range check. I then pressed the reduced output power button and held the TX at slightly different angles and started recording the telemetry results for a minute or two. I did this several times and two sets of results were of particular interest. 1st set) A - 675, B - 30, Frames - 1191 2nd set) A - 471, B - 15, Frames 514 As you can see from above, the recorded Frames number was larger than the total of the A and B fades added together. Surely this cannot be (unless the fades from the satellites are not recorded but included in the frames). Any explanation? I have just tried it again without the satellites, and the Frames were still a bigger number than the A and B fades added together. Weird…. Edited By Roger Dyke on 06/07/2019 16:09:43
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Orange Receiver Telemetry Problem
Roger Dyke replied to Roger Dyke's topic in General Radio Discussion
Maybe.... I seem to have put so much effort into this topic so far that I'm starting to feel a little bit mentally exhausted. For all my efforts I seemed to have gleaned very little information. Even directly from HK support. It's technical information I'm after, like was given in my other thread by the Spektrum software guy. That was 1st class. I don't seem to even be able to contact the Orange company at all, let alone their technical support. perhaps I'm looking too deep. I suppose as a retired electronics design engineer I probably would. -
Steve: I do have the TLM viewer and have been doing nothing else but analysing the return data for the last week. What is does tell me is that on the Orange receiver, the 'A', 'B', and Frame data tend to follow a very 'similar' track upwards, whereby with the Spektrum data you can clearly see where a frame count increments.
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Steve: Thank you so much for that. It is much clearer now and makes sense. That fits in exactly with the pattern of numbers that I have been receiving from the Spektrum receiver. It's a pity we cannot get the same depth of information from Orange or HK about their receivers. Don: I too was wondering if the numbers returned from the Orange receiver have a different explanation. Up to now I haven't a clue. I find it hard to believe that the Orange signal receiving circuitry and control software is several magnitudes worse than Spektrum's with all the technology we have in this day and age. As I previously mentioned, I wonder what the numbers look like when using an Orange telemetry transmitter.
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Don: I can't argue with any of that. I have done exactly the same and have been systematically changing mine too. I am still intrigued though as to what the telemetry numbers actually mean from different manufacturers. I would like to think that they would publish an explanation chart or something but maybe that is too much to ask.
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Don: I would agree that the support at HK probably had crib sheets at their disposal and just reiterated the importance of antenna placement and gave me no idea as to what telemetry returns to expect. Also there was a further problem that when the recommended satellite was added, the returns were far worse to my amazement (see 'General Radio Discussion' thread 'Orange Receiver Telemetry Problem'. They had no answer for that. Regarding binning the offending receiver. I have three of them, all identical and all produce the same results. So it's not the individual bad receiver. I have tried researching other users to no avail. Nigel: I think that your assumption for the Spektrum receiver is basically correct. That is the way I see it too. I tend to think that the 'A' location is the result of the fades of both main receiver antennas added together. And the 'B' location is from the remote receiver antenna alone. With the Orange receiver I would tend to think that the 'A' location is for the one antenna and the 'B' location is for the other. But I'm not sure that is correct as no matter how and where the antennas are positioned the 'A' location always has far more fades than the 'B' location. Also by adding a (recommended) satellite, both the 'A' and 'B' readings are far worse??? This, I cannot get my head around at all. All of what I've stated above is very repeatable. I just get to wondering as to what the returns would be like if using a Orange TX instead of a Spektrum.
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I meant to add to the previous post that I am using the DSMX protocol not the previous DSM2. I have learnt that they work very differently to each other and that the telemetry returns are very different. The DSMX system expects a lot more fades from it's antennas due to the way it spreads the signal frequency for communication.
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Don: I too am interested too, to know just what's going on. HK wouldn't discuss the returned numbers, just reiterating about the importance of careful antenna placement and to make sure that the receiver and satellite were connected together prior to binding. I asked how we can tell when the satellite is connected. Their answer was that we can't by the L and R locations as they are not used but we can tell from the orange light being lit on both the receiver and the satellite. When enquiring about the returned numbers in the DX6 A,B, L, and R locations they advised that I contacted Spektrum support for answers. When contacting Spektrum support they said that they couldn't comment on the DX6 working with none-Spektrum devices. I just continue to go around in circles with no-one with deep enough technical knowledge give positive answers to any of the questions. The quest goes on. By the way, they were 5 minute flights. Edited By Roger Dyke on 04/07/2019 20:26:41
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Seems to me that I have opened a can of worms here folks..... Don, Nigel, Mike, and Steve. Just a few facts. 1) The TX used is a Spektrum DX6 about 4 months old. 2) Regarding the quality of the Orange receiver analogue components. I don't think that this is an issue as I have 3 identical receivers (from different batches). All 3 operate exactly the same with very similar figures. 3) Hobby King support confirmed that the L & R locations in the DX6 received telemetry data are not used by the Orange receiver. The A & B are both used whether or not a satellite is added. The only way that you know whether the satellite is in play is that it's orange light is illuminated (their words). 4) With the Spektrum receiver, the L & R locations are not used either. Only the 'A' location is used with just the lone receiver in play. The 'B' location is added when the remote receiver is added. So you can see by (3) and (4) that both receivers operate slightly differently. I hope this clears up a few points. Edited By Roger Dyke on 04/07/2019 18:20:42
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More which may be of interest...... I have now carried out extensive flight testing using the orange telemetry receiver (R620X + R110XL) and the Spektrum (AR6600 + remote) ones (in the same 3 aircraft). I have found that with exactly the same antenna layout the Spektrum frame losses are between 7 and 18 or so, whereby the Orange ones are generally between 250 and 500. There were no holds on either. Both types of receiver were the 'long range' type with the long antennas. The Spektrum receiver also had a remote receiver and the Orange receiver had an additional satellite receiver. The feeling I'm getting is that the Orange receiver's data format (or timing) is not quite the same as the Spektrum's so is not 100% compatible, but very nearly (probably 80% or so). What the difference is I don't know as the Orange receiver is advertised to be compatible with Spektrum's DX6 TX. Clearly there is something different. Using both types of receiver all the aircraft flew impeccably with no glitches. Maybe by using an Orange or other make of TX the returns would be a lot better, but I've no way of knowing that. Edited By Roger Dyke on 04/07/2019 09:26:17
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Hi All, Here is one for you Orange receiver users. I own 3 Orange R620X 2.4G receivers which are fitted in 3 different aircraft. All antennas have been relocated many times and are now in what I would say are the optimum positions. The telemetry results from all 3 aircraft are poor with the fades in the 1200 area and the frames around 150. To improve the situation I decided to purchase a couple of R110XL satellites which are supposed to be compatible with the R620X. After fitting the satellites, finding the best place for the antennas, and rebinding, the 3 aircraft were flown again, several times. The telemetry figures are now worse (to my surprise) with the fades now in the 1500 area and the frames around 400-500. I have tried all sorts of combinations of the receivers and satellites to no avail. If I remove the satellites the numbers improve...… Any ideas? I have to mention that I have now replaced the one setup with a Spektrum receiver with remote and the numbers are now respectable. But it still doesn't answer the above. Edited By Roger Dyke on 01/07/2019 19:38:43
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Update One flight only today due to the windy conditions. 5 minute flight. Telemetry response: A - 1429, B - 29, L - 0, R - 0, F - 732, H - 0 The telemetry response as you can see, is probably worse than last time. This time I was prepared and set the TX to give a 5 second voice update status on the frames and holds. As mentioned in a previous post I was expecting the worst conditions to be when the aircraft was flying towards me or away from me. Wrong...…. It was the total opposite. The frames were more or less steady in the turns but started to gallop away when flying either downwind or upwind parallel to the runway. I am standing half way along the runway to the side. I didn't fly any 8's or loops, I just concentrated on flying the circuit (large circuit) left hand and right hand. Strange really as I have checked everything I know including replacing the receiver. The satellite receiver antennas are located with one on the left wall of the fuselage and the other on the right, both well away from clutter etc. I would have thought that if the main receiver didn't see the signal, then one of these antennas might as I was flying parallel to the runway. I am now into thinking about trying another make of receiver system to see if that changes things. By the way, the aircraft control performed perfectly.
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Don: First select 'Telemetry' off the menu. Then select 'Flight Log'. This will give you a Flight Log Alarm screen which gives you Frames, Holds, Signal, etc., where you can select 'how many' and add a tone or a voice. I too put my antennas in tubes. I use the plastic tubes that we get from the tops of spent aerosol cans. The tubing is very narrow and the hole is exactly the right size for the antenna. I secure them with a spot of silicone rubber adhesive plus a small blob on the end to retain the antenna.
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Hi All, I have spent all day today carrying out all sorts of tests with antenna repositioning, receiver swapping and think I've explored just about everything. I cannot find any fault whatsoever to do with the radio system. As was suggested to me in earlier posts, I am fast coming to the conclusion that the problem with the excessive frames in flight, is the result of the large engine (0.61) plus it's silencer with added quiet silencer is shielding the antennas and blocking the signal from the transmitter when the plane is flying towards me. As I fly lots of horizontal and vertical 8's plus lots of circuits there must be lots of occasions when the aircraft is in this position for a few seconds each time. Next time I go to the flying field I am going t set the voice on the transmitter to report when I am getting holds to try and get a clue as to when they are happening.
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Don: Yes, I remember the range check being about the same myself back in the seventies. I'm not worried about it, I was just curious that's all. I have been in touch with Hobby King myself by email and up to now we have had 3 exchanges. So far I have had confirmation that the only way that we can tell whether the satellite is working is by it having it's binding light solid. It cannot be confirmed by the telemetry readback. It does not use the 'L' and 'R' locations as I'd hoped. What I do not have an answer for is that the readback figures I get in locations 'A' and 'B' are about the same regardless of whether I have the satellite connected or not. I have tried the 4 antennas in all sorts of different positions but it makes no difference at all. Strange as the reviews for the satellite (R110XL) are generally good.
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Hi All, I emailed Hobby King Technical Support couple of days ago regarding the telemetry returns from the R620X receiver and R110XL satellite, and also how I can tell that the satellite is fully connected and affective. The first reply I received was not too promising, supplying me a link to an answer in a Q & A forum which didn’t really address my question. I have emailed them again, this time asking them questions of a more technical depth but I’m not holding my breath. I am getting the feeling that I’m not dealing with a technical person. More a person that looks down a table of pre-typed replies and picks the most relevant reply. Just on a slightly different note. I have just learned that model aircraft Transmitters manufactured for the US market have a power output set to 200mW and the ones for the European (and UK) market 100mW. Armed with this knowledge, I got to thinking about which market the receivers were aimed at. In the UK, the TX instructions tell us to walk 28 paces to carry out a range check. I’m wondering that if it says the same in the US TX instructions, then the range sensitivity is going to be totally different. Or am I missing something? Roger
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Just a thought. When I purchased the satellite (R110XL), I plugged it into the main receiver, powered up, and then carried out the 'bind' process. When carrying this out, initially both receiver and satellite were both flashing, then after the 'bind' they both had a steady solid light. Do you think that I ought to have carried out the 'bind' process on the main receiver only, then plugged in the satellite? Edited By Roger Dyke on 10/06/2019 20:43:13
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Don: I have just identified on the main receiver which is antenna 'A' and antenna 'B' by using my spare receiver. Antenna 'A' is the vertical one shown in the first picture. The only one that hasn't been moved. It is now about to be. I'm at a bit of a loss as to where to put it but no doubt find somewhere with a bit of thought. Steve: On the Spektrum AR6600T receiver, the 'A' is the main receiver signals and 'B' is the remote receiver signals. On the Orange R620X receiver, both 'A' and the 'B' record the main receiver signals. With the satellite then plugged in there is no difference at all to any of the telemetry readbacks. The 'L' and 'R' locations remain at '0'.
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Steve: I do not have a Spektrum or Lemon receiver to hand and would involve me purchasing them just for elimination purposes. If it comes to that I probably will. You are correct about the main receiver. The primary receiver is the one showing the antennas in the first photo. The only antenna that hasn't been moved is the vertical one in the middle of the fuselage. That may be 'A' or 'B'. I have no way of knowing.
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Don: I don't think it's working either but I've not got any way of knowing. You're right, the 'A' antenna is definitely not doing me any favours. It would be useful to know which one out of the two that is. The RX has two satellite sockets and the instructions say that if you only have one then it must be plugged into number one (which it is). The 'top hat' on the servo ferrules is sitting at the bottom between the beam and the rubber servo bush. The rubber bushes are slightly thicker than the length of the ferrules so they look a bit crushed when screwed down. I used to mount them the other way up years ago but since I've got back into the hobby I've learnt that they were upside down. I must admit that the servo mounting screws do look a bit tight. Nigel: It could be a noisy servo perhaps but I think unlikely as I only purchased them all new a couple of months ago. The grub screws are all tight and only been re-installed very recently. There are no loose metal parts or connections anywhere. I do have another S148 handy, so might start swapping it around if I get completely stuck for answers. It possibly is an 'installation thing', but I have already moved the antennas around two or three times to no avail.
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Update Another visit to the flying field today. Receiver (R620X) changed and also one of the antennas moved. Two perfect flights with no glitches at all. Smooth horizontal 8's flown with a few rolls and loops. Couldn't fault the aircraft's performance. Now the bad bit (both 5 minute flights):- 1st Flight A - 1497, B - 88, L - 0, R - 0, F - 410, H - 0 2nd Flight A - 1485, B - 90, L - 0, R - 0, F - 435, H - 0 The results look rubbish (again). I have attached some photos of my installation. Which although might not be brilliant, is certainly a lot better than most I see of other installations. Your thoughts? Edited By Roger Dyke on 10/06/2019 14:29:07
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