"L"Plate

Your right Peter with the "A or B becoming harder" bit as I said it seems to be harder, it could just be that I had a less kind examiner or because I was young flew better. I think with the LMA you get a certificate to fly a particular large model when you have completed a series of observed test flights and you get a display log book that is filled in by the display controller. That said, I don't think the BMFA states you have to have any test to be an event organiser (unless I have missed it in the handbook) and it is only a BMFA recommendation that pilots have their "B", not a rule; but they do state that the CD must satisfy themselves that the pilots taking part are competent and safe. In fact I would never want anyone to rely on memory to set up an event, if I was to do that the handbook would be firmly in hand as I checked to make sure all was right. May be there should be an event organisers test, separate to any flying test, that way people might see the “B” differently.   The "B" is not a display or competition licence it was intended to improve pilots skills and progress them from the “A”, unfortunately it is now seen by many as only being needed if they are going to fly in public (So why bother?). Next flying part please Peter. Martin, you are right the Heli "B" is not as easy as it sound, the "Top Hat" is simple on paper, just the same as a loop and we all know how hard it is to get one of those right (it is not just yank back the stick and have it come out round).   Edited By "L"Plate on 10/10/2014 08:46:05

That is exactly what happened to me! I had to redo my “A” for fixed wing and heli, not yet attempted to re-take my Heli “B”. I have to say it seems to have got harder and the examiners appear to expect far more accuracy with the flying than I remember.

Hi Martin, You are right, in the fact that there is more to the test than just the flying bit, but I think the need to display good control over the aircraft is an essential part (and some examiners do seem to be fairly picky on that). It is very true that the candidate needs to understand a full range of display flying and both as a pilot and as an event organiser, however (to me) this thread is about how to fly, as the other information is all available in the BMFA hand book. The “B” is not just for pilots wanting to fly competition or display models, it is something to help improve pilots flying skills and procedures, to my mind too many pilots stop at the “A” and consider themselves competent. I think that this thread (although set to help pilots wanting to go into competition), is for all pilots, wanting to fly better be it aerobatics or just better. The BMFA handbook is great at giving guidance to keep up safety, but is lacking as to guidance on how to fly, this thread is helping to fill that gap for many (including me).

Not that I am saying this is the way to do thing, but the thing that got me using both sticks was flying model helicopters in the 70’s (it was a Cricket without a gyro), now I often fly a trainer around (when I am not teaching) swapping between using rudder elevator and aileron elevator (great fun inverted, a bit like balancing a ball on a pencil). So I would have to say any model that needs rudder input is good practice, however, I would fly a model that you intend to do you test with or compete with as much as possible (preferably one that doesn’t need to much correction during manoeuvres). I am just lazy and just want to correct for the wind (which is more than enough for me), without having to correct for the model. I have had a go with a Yak (I think it is the one your talking about), it is a good fun machine to sharpen skills, I did my first passable knife-edge loop and rolling circle with it (the owner seemed impressed, I hope is not reading this, but I was probably even more shocked that I didn’t need to escape from an unusual attitude situation).

Going back to Geoff's how do you know if your getting better, I said it is good to have someone who knows the standard check you out, this can also help as it gets you familiar with your flying being looked at, so when it comes to the test it is just another check flight. Well it helps me anyway. I think it is good for competition fly as well to be regularly judged during practice, for the same reason. Edited By "L"Plate on 09/10/2014 14:50:13

Geoff, A plan is always good, by practicing with the same joining maneuvers between each section (as long as they work and give you the space and time to set up), is a good way of getting the routine set in your mind (it allows you to practice even if you don't have a caller with you); I was just saying that it is you to you as long as it is safe and accepted by the examiner, you have a free hand. Keep it up. Regards "L" Plate

There is no ribbon diagram for the "B" as there is no set method of going from one figure to the next (the method should be pre agreed with the examiner so they know what you are doing), some will fly it like a turn around aerobatic routine but it is equally acceptable to fly any other safe pattern between each part. I was advised (by my area coordinator) to use procedure turns as it gives time to set up for a straight run in, and I have found this to be better for me. I am sure Peter can confirm or correct me, but I have not seen anything the guidance that specifies a linking maneuver to be used.

I think the only true judgment to how or if your are getting better is to have a true measure against a standard by someone who knows the standard, be that an instructor or an examiner. It is helpful if they give you feedback on each part of the test, that way you will be able to look at the previous feedback and see what has got better and what you have neglected; I know a couple of people who do this for those who ask and it is very helpful (well I found it good).

Hi Peter, How big should the fig 8 be? I have been told they should be about the size of the circuit, others have said the size is not specified. As I have not been able to go to the workshops on this, I am not sure, which is right.

Hi SR71, If you go to http://www.rcmodelforum.com/showthread.php/220-Traplet-%E2%80%9CFarmhand-60%E2%80%9D-Build/page6 post 54 you will see how I do it. I post on there as Sink Finder and the demo is on a Farmhand 60 cowl but is the same method I use for large areas. Regards

There is also Hobby King EU. I assume you are running two 5S packs in series to give 10S. I looks great and I am sure that next time you will get the weight down a bit more. How did you do your glassing, I tend to use EzeKote or water based PU for most of my glassing, except on veneered foam wings, and found it to sand well lighter than epoxy resins and take all the paint finishes I have tried; typically it works out for me about 30% of the weight of epoxy for the same finish standard (another plus is it is easy to clean the tools after use). I have also used tissue and EzeKote on none stressed areas with good effect.

I would use 3mm clevises and but some 3mm threaded rod but then I am a cheap skate, or with 2mm clevises you can use some rods for model helicopters.

Thanks for that KR, now I will have to buy the book to see how, as to me the airflow is clean around the fin and rudder (with it under the model in the inverted position) and dirty above the tailplane (over nothing other than the tail wheel). But as with all these things, there is more to it than just what we think, the final test is always in the flying. I did have a model that didn't like to exit the spin as quickly inverted, I put it down to a semi symmetrical section and wash out, but it may have been to do with this fin rudder (it was a Dalotel). Always good to learn so I will try and get a copy to see why and how.

Hi All, "Depending on how you fly you might find that the rudder area below the elevator is too small i.e. in an inverted spin the elevator blankets the available rudder area so the spin could become terminal! Maybe check out some expert reviews on that one?" I am lost on this one, if the model is inverted then all the rudder and fin is under the model in clean airflow, so surely it would be more effective than in the turbulent air from the tailplane in an upright spin? From my experience the amount of fin and rudder above and below the tailplane, seems to have more effect in knife edge (effecting the roll coupling) rather than spin. Peter, have I missed something?

Looks neat SR71. Hope the test flight goes well for you.

Cloud Models now deal with the PB models, I think you can get all the PB range if you contact Phil at Cloud models but not all are showing on their web site.

Just a quick thought about the speck in the sky syndrome; from the RC pilot’s and judges point of view it is the same as the crowd line at an air show, from the spectators’ point of view it is the same as looking at the air show probably nearly a scale mile outside the airfield. As you have said Peter the small the model the closer in you can fly but the smaller the model the more the speck syndrome would be from the spectators’ point at the prospective distance of scale would increase. From my memory of days gone by seeing Hano flying, it seemed that as a spectator I was much closer to the flight line, so the model probably looked closer, I may be wrong and remembering through rose tints or younger eyes. Safety drives the distance flight lines are away from spectators; this has (I think) lead to the trend for a lot more large aircraft being displayed at model shows. Back to flying advice! During the winter, the grass at the club field tends to be longer and damper; I was thinking that it might be prudent to remove the small wheels and spats on my Monolog and put some larger wheels on without spats. I was wondering how much this will effect the trim, with the extra drag low down (weight would be negligible and CofG could easily be maintained), your thoughts please.

The “B” test is a bit of a postcode lottery, from my view point the clubman schedule is easier than the “B” test, I have been told by some, that the “B” was not much harder than the “A” test. I can say that I did my be back in the 80’s and although it has not changed much, now I need to do it again (paperwork and bit lost by SMAE), it appears that you have to be far more precise. This is probably driven by the fact, that it is generally used as the minimum requirement to fly at a public show, which is a good thing but it is not a display licence. Personally I feel that the “B” should be there to encourage improved flying, however, the only real encouragement for most club pilots are the club instructors or a desire to display. There are argument for and against the requirement for a “B” for competition flying, I do feel that it is a block to “Clubman Pilots”, who would improve their standard fast in competition and then pass their “B” with ease before going up the classes; the other view is that it means the standard is set before starting to fly competitively and makes host clubs feel happy with pilot standards. Bit of egg and chicken, get keen members early and drive them to a “B” or good pilots with a “B” from the start, which should move to higher classes faster? What ever we are stuck with the requirement so we need to deal with it.

I would have to say that if I had been able to practice for my “B” test and had a go at it this year (and passed), I would have been able to compete with a model that is more that capable of taking me up to Masters level. My model is a Monolog 110 and built from new cost just over £500 (all in including 3 sets of batteries) that said I could have bought a second hand 2m model for £550 or even competed with a model for less than that. I liken it to motor sport, you can start out in the lower formulas at a fraction of the cost of F1 and enjoy yourself, or just about bankrupt yourself and buy and take part in the higher formulas and not be competitive as you have not learner the ropes. Most F1 driver started with carts not even formula Ford. The biggest fear I think most have, is thinking people will laugh at their early attempts at competition flying and from my experience in aeromodelling competitions (control line aerobatic, combat, speed and RC gliding, RAFMA RC aerobatic & Fun Fly) you only ever seem to be supported by those with more experience. No one took the Mike out of any one the attending pilots at the NPOD I went to, only giving praise for having a go and encouragement to go further. It is of course even easier if you have a friend to help guide you or encourage you to progress, to talk to about the things that you struggle with; this thread is in a way just that, for those like myself who are isolated from F3A competitors, the sooner I can get my “B” sorted and turn up to event, the better it will be for me.

I have to agree with Peter's last paragraph (like I do with 99% of his posts ), I do find that even when having a relaxing play that I tend to fly in a more precision way, I also relax with a bit of e-soaring or combat (both a mile away from precision aerobatics).

Hi Willyuk, No I am not ready to get rid of the "L" plates yet, probably not until I am known by letter like CPLR. I know exactly what you mean about setting the hight and distance, without some body to say you have right or wrong. If you have a "Jenkins" to call on you are in a better position than I am. I am not in the same league as Peter but I am an ex full size pilot and I do teach a few people to fly RC. I think the main difference I see between the average pilot and the good pilots, is that the majority of good pilots go out and set themselves a task for the flight (the average pilot is happy if the model is fit for another flight), at the end of the day we all have different goals and get pleasure in different ways. Keep up the practice, if you can fly straight lines with turnarounds at each end, then moving it to the right bit of sky is just a small step, keep going it will only get better.

That is a good point Peter, having enough power to perform the manoeuvre and even a little in hand, so you can make it big and see / have time to work out the corrections. Throttle management is a very major part of flying, especially aerobatics; digital throttle used by some of club pilots just will not cut the mustard, you need to adjust the throttle throughout, not full throttle up - throttle off down in the loop for example. Throttle management is important in general flying too, how often do you see pilots take off by just slamming the throttle fully open, or landing with the throttle back to idle, rather than controlling the decent rate with throttle and speed with elevator (answer – Probably fairly often). This is why, learning to fly aerobatics is a great thing for any pilot to do, even if they never intend to fly in a competition; as well as teaching pilots to use both sticks, it also helps pilots regain control of models when it gets to an unusual attitude (for whatever reason).

I am trying to work on a problem that I have found myself doing. In a cross wind I tend to fly the model faster, to reduce the amount of compensation I need, the down side is I end up rushing the manoeuvre. When I fly at the same speed, as I do without a cross wind, I have more time to correct during the manoeuvre but have to do more work to compensate. I have yet to nail it but it is getting better, just wish I had more time to practice; all the simulators I have tried don't give me the same perspective as real flight (probably because my computer screen just isn't big enough). When I go out flying, my first two flights are as Peter describes (straight line turn round straight line at low line or both high and low line), followed by a flights with every third pass in one direction with a centre manoeuver added. Normally I try for 4 or 5 practice flights (with the pattern model) but also tend to fly in a similar way with any other model flown. Practice for me is a lonely process as others in the club often are not flying because the wind is too strong or across the runway, the other problem is if there is anyone there they will not point out errors (if asked you get "that looked great to me mate", as they think it is fantastic that anyone dares to do an outside loop at anything less than 1000ft. You need constructive, accurate criticism to help you improve, if you can have helpful advice as well, even better.  I was asked by the owner of a foam Watt 4 that he asked me to check the trims out on "How come the wind is smooth when you flew it?". My answer was, "The wind stops mucking you about, once it knows your not bothered by it, that only happens when you have shown it by flying in it a fair few times". Edited By "L"Plate on 08/08/2014 12:34:28 Edited By "L"Plate on 08/08/2014 12:38:12

Some thing just don't change much have a look at this video from the 80's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EeYI1GPH-A

Thanks Peter for the latest post. I think that it is often forgoten that skills do dull without practice, your way of working back into your top form is a reminder that no matter how good you are, after a lay off you need start with the basics (the same as you would with a new model) to do your best without killing your confidence or model.