Flying with sea thermals at Woolacombe - 2,100 feet asl

[Bob Moore]

Nice day paragliding on the N Devon coast on Wednesday with 800 feet per min sea thermals at times. I got my best ever height, 2,100 feet asl, but chickened out on going over the back (as we say. ) Video from HD 16 version 1 key cam.

**LINK**

3 of my friendsdid fly cross country, 2 of them making 80k to Taunton.

 

 Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 21/09/2012 13:27:16

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 26/09/2012 17:25:03

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Very nice Bob, well done, enjoyed that...rather you than me though

[Martyn Johnston]

I used to do a little bit of Paragliding many moons ago.

Really good fun, but very scary.

They sometimes do it near me at Charmouth; often tempted to getting back into it.

Great video.

Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 21/09/2012 13:59:21

[Martyn Johnston]

I remember once I was at about 60ft high, and I hit a rotor/turbulance which collapsed the wing. I fell 59ft before it opened again. Opened up 'just' before I hit the ground. Scared the crap out of me it did.

[Bob Moore]

Thanks David. I do fly models too! Frankenstein is going to be maidened soon, now I've sorted my engine problems by the simple remedy of new fuel. Was rechecking the CoG today.

Re low level collapse. Yes, rotor/turbulence is what will get you. It's about worst thing that can happen and does result in serious injury or even death.

Despite the thermic conditions on Wednesday it wasn't rough. One of my friends had his first post qualify flight. It was top end limit for paragliding so plenty of ridge lift. And the 'best' thermal featured in the video was decidely gentle and large.

100 feet is about the limit for throwing your reserve, so it's nice once you get above a few hundred feet.

I was flying in Dorset a couple of weeks back in rough thermic conditions and if it's like that I consider it;s better to call it a day and land.

Glad you enjoyed it (and thanks for allowing them in a model thread.) It is useful as an example of the quality of the £30 HD key chain cam?

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

Congrats Bob,You are truly competent and cool...... ..Your white cap reminded me of Sir Stirling Moss-The Great.

 

Edited By Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 22/09/2012 13:09:27

[Bob Moore]

Not sure where the white cap fits Josip, and I doubt I'm cool! It is nice to get high though. I'm 65 (flying about 10 years), but I know someone who started at 69. 

My best heights are around 8,000 feet asl, in Australia and again in the Alpes last year. And 5,000 feet in the UK.  And best cross country is 37k. (Video on my channel.)

Try it Josip!

Cap? My full face helmet is silver (used be dark grey, but it was too hot in the sun so I got a mate with a body shop to respray it for me!)

Edited By Bob Moore on 22/09/2012 14:50:31

Edited By Bob Moore on 22/09/2012 14:50:59

[Julian Edgecombe]

Great Video, brings back a load of memories,

We started hang gliding at the farm on the left of the hill back in the early seventies, had to cross the valley in between to get on the main slope, led to a few long hikes, then we formed the North Devon Sailwing club and managed to get permission from the NT to fly from the main hill.

I believe Mike Stainer is still flying from the hill?

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

Dear Bob ,I think that is the courage to fly by paraglider .I'm also 65 and still fly by microlight,but never with paraglider...bad memories.. Only brave lads,awaken the memory of Sir Moss.

Cheers

Joe

[David perry 1]

Bob, whats Woolacombe like? Im a LAT CP (still dragging that red ribbon), but fancy a trip to Woolacombe when the wind fits.

David

[Bob Moore]

Ho Josip, I think paragliders and hangliders are safer than they were 10 or 20 years ago. CAD and better testing. There is still potential for accident, but hopefully a lot depends on one's attitude and risk assessment ability. (That's what I tell myself anyway!)

Hi David, Woolacombe is a great site for newly qualified CP's. Big grassy top for top landing or practising top landing approaches and a huge beach to land on, or bomb out on. (Less beach on a springs high water of course.) One of my first post qualifying flights was there, and the guy I car shared with wednesday took his first post CP flight that day. (It was top end wind and it took a loooonnng time to get him in the air.) WNW is best wind direction. A forecast of about 10 mph at Chivenor on XC weather, usually equates to a flying breeze 12 -14 mph on the hill. The site guide is on South Devon Club web site. Most important is the note about low flying north of Mill Rock. (The North Devon Club have had complaints.)

Go for it.

[Bill_B]

Posted by Bob Moore on 21/09/2012 13:23:05:

Nice day paragliding on the N Devon coast on Wednesday with 800 feet per min sea thermals at times.

I assume you mean inland thermals that have drifted out over the sea?

[Bob Moore]

No, these are thermals that develop over the sea. Sea temp this time of year there is 17 degs C and air temp was 13 degs. It only needs an air temp differential of 2 or 3 degs for the development/formation of a thermal. Usually formed of course by the sun heating the ground and causing a differential. You do sometimes get conventional thermals popping off from the beach or rocks as well on sunny days.

The wind was blowing onshore at 20 mph so impossible for land thermals to drift in that direction. One of the guys flying has flown 90 k from there and I spoke to him before my flight. He said you need to pick up a weak sea thermal, drift downwind over the land with it and then try and connect with a land thermal.

I was flying two days ago at Labrador Bay near Teignmouth. A cold and grey day. No sunshine at all. Normal soaring height on the coast, here, take off height 400 feet asl, might be 300 - 400 feet above take off. I got a sea thermal at 400 - 500 feet per minute that took me a 1000 feet above take off. No sunshine, just a temp differential.

A couple of years ago at this time of the year I got over a 1000 feet and a hill on the coast that is just 150 feet asl.

[Bob Moore]

As you seem to enjoy the last, this video was Saturday near Teignmouth. (I don't usually get this much air time. Sometimes I'm lucky if it's once or twice a month.)

Cold and grey but enjoyable

1000 feet above take off and 400 feet per min. (About 1400 feet asl.)

Edited By Bob Moore on 25/09/2012 15:59:25

[Steve Houghton 1]

Although I think paragliding is a fantastic sport/hobby, they are the bane of the slope soarers lives here in S Wales. They will quite happily fly through the little bit of airspace we take up with little regard for their own safety, let alone anyone elses.

I was recently flying on Meio with a couple of mates when a couple of paras turned up. We chatted and they asked us we minded them flying. Of course we didn't but we asked if they could just keep to our left, and we would keep to the right. Not to much to ask but did they? Nope! They flew straight across us and we had to take avaiding action to miss them. Not very good when you have an F3F model hurtling along the slope at 50/60mph.

We could all get along very well if only the paras would treat us with just a little respect, then maybe we wouldn't wish them to land out at the bottom of the slope with a long, hard trek back again afterwards.

Rant over

[Devon Flyer]

Posted by Steve Houghton 1 on 25/09/2012 16:44:40:

Although I think paragliding is a fantastic sport/hobby, they are the bane of the slope soarers lives here in S Wales. They will quite happily fly through the little bit of airspace we take up with little regard for their own safety, let alone anyone elses.

I was recently flying on Meio with a couple of mates when a couple of paras turned up. We chatted and they asked us we minded them flying. Of course we didn't but we asked if they could just keep to our left, and we would keep to the right. Not to much to ask but did they? Nope! They flew straight across us and we had to take avaiding action to miss them. Not very good when you have an F3F model hurtling along the slope at 50/60mph.

We could all get along very well if only the paras would treat us with just a little respect, then maybe we wouldn't wish them to land out at the bottom of the slope with a long, hard trek back again afterwards.

Rant over

+1

Although Woolacombe Down is our best Westerly facing slope around here, I avoid it like the plague when the 'floaters' are up. Best news for us is when the Westerlies go up around 20+mph and the paragliders stay at home.

Even when it's blowing WNW and we are flying off the next hill along from Woolacombe Down to avoid the paragliders, there's always one of them that just has to drift along to invade our airspace. WHY?!

I used to find paragliders mildly interesting when they first arrived on the scene - now I just find them a flamin' nuisance.

[Bob Moore]

edit, Hi Devon flyer, my reply was too the previous post!

Woolas is a great site, but generally modellers (inc me) need to keep the model close enough to see it, unless flying FPV, and where possible, I think paragliders try to extend their run as far as possible? ie   Away from take off area. I'm surprised there's confict there? But I only get up there from S Devon a couple of times a year.

You mention 'our airspace'. I don't know if you have an arrangement with the North Devon club, but there's no mention of anything about models and ' agreed airspace' on the site guide on their web site?  Am I missing something?

....

South Wales is a brilliant flying area, though I've only been a couple of times and didn't see any modellers where I flew.

We don't get many slopers at my local sites, but at busy sites like Devil's Dyke near Brighton, they have agreed demarcation zones and as far as I know things work out ok. It scares the sh.t out of me flying with models, as a model in the lines will likely down a paraglider and possibly even kill him. The model will probably be repairable? (If not covered in blood. ) Don't know where you fly, but at times I guess there are likely to be some conflicts.

Paragliders can only fly in a very small wind window. 10 or maybe 12 mph to 17 -18 mph max. I have slopers that will fly in 5 mph and another 20+ mph. Paragliders have a glide of 8 -1 or 10 -1 at best. A lot of slopers have 3 or 4 times that glide I guess. Paragliders are slower and less manoevrable. The guys who flew your way may have needed to? Just a thought. I have seen video of a soarer stuck in someones lines.

I fly both so can see both points of view. ( I guess there are some paraglider pilots who consider model flyers to be the bain of their lives too! )

We are starting to see speedflyers and mini wings at our sites and there is some conflict there and potential for accidents. It's like snowboarders and skiers. And sailors and blooming speedboats and jet skis. (Can you tell I was a professional sailor?) Nobody owns the air or the water though.

Anyhow, hope you can sort things out. Have you talked to the local club? That would be a good way to start, or go to a club meeting and talk about it?

I can assure you if ever I'm lucky enough to be at a site where you're flying the F3F (don't know what it is but it's fast) I will be keeping well out of your way.

 

PS Interestingly an FPV flier posted some video on my paragliding forum. He was at times flying miles away from his own loaction, high in mountains and close to paragliders. A lot of people expressed concerns,  but he came back on the forum to explain about his fail safes and other stuff and it was a bit reassuring. Can't say I'm that keen on the idea of being chased around the sky by an FPV though.

 

PPS I didn't come on here to start a war between model flyers and paragliders, just to post a key chain cam video because others had expressed interest in the past!

 

 

 

 

Edited By Bob Moore on 25/09/2012 19:18:07

Edited By Bob Moore on 25/09/2012 19:21:47

Edited By Bob Moore on 25/09/2012 19:27:05

[Steve Houghton 1]

Hi Bob

You won't get any kind of war from me or any of us slopers in S Wales. We try to respect everyones right to enjoy the countryside, including walkers, cyclists, climbers etc etc. But when we complain to the paras for crossing in front of us, when there is no reason to as there is usually enough room for all of us, all we get is verbal abuse. It's like they feel that only they have a right to the slope. One of them even said he'd report us to the farmer for flying there but, as it happens, one of the guys I was with knew the farmer very well and told him to go ahead. There are 3 or 4 of us who fly the site regularly and the farmer always says hello to us as we walked up the track. We don't do any harm, don't leave any mess so I guess he's happy.

So come on you paras who read this, get off your high horses and learn to live with the other users of the countryside and respect their rights too.

[Bob Moore]

Sorry to hear that Steve, I think most people are reasonable whatever sport they do. I doubt there are that many paras that will see this here, so as I said before your best bet would be to talk to the local club if you have a problem?

Edited By Bob Moore on 25/09/2012 20:15:20

[SkippyUK]

The videos look great Bob, I'm very envious.

Apart from the training and time involved to learn paragliding, what sort of budget would you need to get airbourne these days for basic kit and how long (hours) does it take instruction before you can safely get aloft?

Also, not wanting to fan or douse any flames, we regularly fly gliders and wings at Kipling Torr alongside paragliders and just treat them like large aircraft and avoid collisions - simples!.

We've had a few minor hits but nothing that's caused any injury or damage as far as I know and we've found the paraglider guys invaluable in finding 'lost' models in the gorse.

[Bob Moore]

Thanks Steve, nice to hear something positive. The last time I flew at Freathy, a few weeks back, another of the coastal sites featured in my videos, a modeller had lost an aircraft and several of us spent some time over flying the spot and trying to direct him to it. He was looking for a good hour or two. Easy to see it from the air, but impossible in the 6 foot high brambles from the ground. Despite our efforts I'm not sure if he recovered it.

A year or two back I spotted a Zagi type wing in brambles stuck on another site No modellers to be seen and I think it had been there some time. I figured I'd try and recover it. Despite having a good idea where it was it took me an hour and was a fight through shoulder high brambles. No contact details on the model and the rx, battery and servoes were dead, but some time later I did revive it with new kit.

Re the cost of paragliding. The cost of s/h gear isn't bad. My wing was £425 and will be good for at least 3 or 4 years or more. I sold my last wing to a club member for £250 and a week later he did a 15k cross country flight on it. New cost more like £3000, some people like to upgrade and buy the latest models so 2 or 3 year old wings with few hours on are common. (You need to know what you are buying is suitable for your level of experience of course, as with rc models, you get hot wings and beginner wings. Harness, mine s/h £125. (New £500 -600+) Helmet £100 new, boots £140 new (not essential) and reserve parachute NEW a couple of hundred quid. Oh and vario, £160.

The big cost is getting training. Usually about ten days to get your club pilot rating which means you can fly without an instructor being present. (Though still within a club environment with advice from other pilots and coaches.) And you can join the British Hangliding and Paragiding Association,and will have insurance, which clubs will require. In the UK the 10 days can take a year depending on your availablility and the weather. (Took me a year.) But the cost for the ten days is about a £1000. There are people who buy s/h gear from e bay and try and teach themselves, or be taught by mates. I'm a coach, but not allowed to instruct. But it's not best of plans to try and self teach, though it's often pointed out that twenty years ago that's what people did.

It's a potentially dangerous activity depending on your attitude to risk, and risk assessment. Not an adrenaline junky sport like speedflying, BASE etc. Often very mellow,, but needs to be treated with respect. It may sound daft but I get more nervous before taking off one of models than I do taking off on my paraglider.

Re safely being aloft, you never stop learning really and can pay heavily by learning by your mistakes. After about 10 days as a CP you are signed off to fly. Hard to say a minimum time to be really safe, it depends what you want to do. (If there's such a thing as really safe. Reasonably competent maybe. ) Coastal flying at sites like Woolacombe, which is an easy site for low airtime OK for anyone. Some of our Dartmoor sites have big chunks of granite and mistakes can be damaging. Alpine flying in strong thermals takes a bit more learning too. Ground handling is the hardest thing to be really competent at, and you still cock up sometimes. Strong winds are hardest. (Hence the start of my video I use a Mitsos launch technique.)

If you have thought about it, you can try a taster day with most schools and they will knock the cost of the day off the price of the course if you proceed further.

[Devon Flyer]

Posted by Bob Moore on 25/09/2012 18:57:47:

You mention 'our airspace'. I don't know if you have an arrangement with the North Devon club, but there's no mention of anything about models and ' agreed airspace' on the site guide on their web site? Am I missing something?

 

If you read the site guide, you would think that RC gliding didn't exist. But it has been taking place there long before hang gliders/ paragliders were around.

There is no formal agreed airspace; I would have thought it would just be plain commonsense and courtesy to keep out of each others way.

It must be pretty obvious, when you are just hanging in the air enjoying the view, that there is aeromodelling activity further along the slope, partivularly when there is 3mtr+ stuff around. So why drift along to invade the airspace being used by modellers? This has happened on several occasions at Woolacombe and Potters Hill, causing us to either move out of the way, or land. It even happened at St.Agnes, last week, where we were flying perfectly happily about 1/2 mile further along the coast from the lone paraglider, who then just had to drift along through where we were flying. Why?! He'd got about 3 miles of coast he could use, but just had to use the 1/4 mile stretch we were on. Not exactly the way to endear oneself with other slope users, is it?

Several years ago, Woolacombe Down was the ideal site for flying larger scale gliders, in lower wind speeds. That changed when paragliding started to become popular, as ideal conditions for them were, unfortunately, the very same ideal conditions for us. It was manageable when there were only a couple of canopies up on the slope, but these days there can be a dozen, or more. I will not contemplate putting a glider up amongst them purely on safety grounds. Even though Woolacombe is on my doorstep (literally a 10 minute drive to the slope), I now prefer to drive 45 minutes to another Westerly slope that thankfully, so far, has not been invaded by floaters.

It's unfortunate that some people's fun has to be had at the expense of others.

Edited By Devon Flyer on 26/09/2012 16:00:53

[Robin Kearney]

Hi Bob,

Love that video from Labrador Bay, I know that part of the world quite well, having lived at both ends of the Teignmouth road in my life. It was lovely to see it from the air.

Is that a suitable site for flying model gliders do you know?

r.

[Bob Moore]

Sorry and all that, but you say 'when you are just hanging there...' it's not ME. Please don't make this personal, (this appears to be the tone of your post.) I go there twice a year at most! And I've never seen a modeller flying there.

I didn't write the site guide either and agree maybe it should be updated, or changed to mention model flyers.

You mention a paraglider wanting to use the stretch of coast you were on. Maybe it had the best lift and he didn't want to end up in the sea, as he would have very likely drowned. I doubt very much anyone would fly in such a way just to cause you or any other modellers grief. It is as you said common sense to keep clear, as a model could down a paraglider and cause serious injury or death, and most paraglider pilots are smart enough to know that, and don't want an accident.

If you have issues with paragliders at Woolacombe, please, as I've suggested, contact North Devon paragliding club. There's no point ranting at me about it.

Contacts list is here

Even better here's club contact's e mail address richardosborne(at)hotmail.co.uk

edit the 'at' for an @

I have just phoned him an mentioned this discussion.

You mention another site you can use, bear in mind that there are very few sites that are suitable for paragliding (or get permission from farmers or the NT for paragliding. And pay the NT for using the site too. ) but there are possibly quite a few more that can be used for model flying. Paragliders have to go where they can. Woolacombe is a two and a half hour drive for me. If there was a decent site I could use nearer to me, believe me I wouldn't spend out £40 on fuel driving up there!

 

Edited By Bob Moore on 26/09/2012 17:06:00

[Devon Flyer]

Posted by Bob Moore on 26/09/2012 16:49:39:

Sorry and all that, but you say 'when you are just hanging there...' it's not ME. Please don't make this personal, (this appears to be the tone of your post.) I go there twice a year at most! And I've never seen a modeller flying there.

I didn't write the site guide either and agree maybe it should be updated, or changed to mention model flyers.

You mention a paraglider wanting to use the stretch of coast you were on. Maybe it had the best lift and he didn't want to end up in the sea, as he would have very likely drowned. I doubt very much anyone would fly in such a way just to cause you or any other modellers grief. It is as you said common sense to keep clear, as a model could down a paraglider and cause serious injury or death, and most paraglider pilots are smart enough to know that, and don't want an accident.

If you have issues with paragliders at Woolacombe, please, as I've suggested, contact North Devon paragliding club. There's no point ranting at me about it.

Contacts list is here

Even better here's club contact's e mail address richardosborne(at)hotmail.co.uk

edit the 'at' for an @

I have just phoned him an mentioned this discussion.

You mention another site you can use, bear in mind that there are very few sites that are suitable for paragliding (or get permission from farmers or the NT for paragliding. And pay the NT for using the site too. ) but there are possibly quite a few more that can be used for model flying. Paragliders have to go where they can. Woolacombe is a two and a half hour drive for me. If there was a decent site I could use nearer to me, believe me I wouldn't spend out £40 on fuel driving up there!

Edited By Bob Moore on 26/09/2012 17:06:00

Oh dear, Bob.

I was not making a personal attack on you or anyone else in particular; I was using 'you' in the generic sense ie. a paraglider (non specific).

I am not 'ranting' at you - merely stating the point of view of someone on the 'other side of the slope', so to speak .

If you've never seen a model flyer there, it's possibly because they have realised there is a paraglider, or several, on site and it just ain't worth the candle.

I doubt very much whether the paraglider at St.Agnes would have run out of lift, ended up in the sea and drowned, he seemed to have gained an awful lot of height from his take off point about a mile down the coast...............I was flying a fully ballasted Acacia2 and it was bouyant for as far along the slope as I dare venture either side of where I was standing............he was just being nosey and intrusive. Similar things have happened at other slope sites I've been on in the past. Whether it's idle curiosity, or downright bloody mindedness - who can say? Either way, it's unwelcome and unnecessary.

I don't have an issue with the Woolacombe paragliders - if they are flying, I go somewhere else..........or wait until it's blowing 20+mph and they don't venture out.