Phil Winks Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Posted by jolliffee on 05/02/2014 16:59:20: Hi Phil. What size of propeller did you end up with? I've just purchased a pre-owned E-Pioneer which has already seen two people through the A test so I'm hoping I will be the third! It is a little worn as you may expect but nothing that I going to worry about except it came with a 12x8 propeller which I think is a little on the large size?. Thanks, David Hi david finally got my E-Pioneer out today and the final set up was an 11x10 on a turnighy NTM propdrive 35-42 1000kv 47A motor powered by a 3300 3s lipo giving 445W (Static test) and a full 10 minutes of mixed flying on 74% of the battery so a 12/15 min flight is a possibility. She performs much as trainer should on this setup and will perform some areobatics on the recomended sport throws, though I did find the rudder needs 3/4 of inch as opposed to the sugested 1/2", the stall is fairly benign though if pushed will drop a wing. Landing is pretty much as expected though in moderate gusts it can balloon when still 3 foot of the ground, and if approach is a little quick she does need "planting" on the runway, though the flair is quite positive and does bleed speed of rapidly, faster than I expected it to. On the earlier subject of right thrust requirements, My model has none built in and perhaps should have, as several clicks of right rudder are needed to keep her tracking straight. Edited By Phil Winks on 09/03/2014 19:21:05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Hi Is this thread still alive? Anyone? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Bertram Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Janos, I'm still alive and fly/crash/rebuild an ePioneer. I bet there are others who will crawl out of the woodwork and at least fly one!! Cheers Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hello Bob that is good news 😃 One Pioneer is on the way... I got one at a great price I have other trainers havng Futaba s3003 servos but I hope I can fit smaller ones like Emax es08 metal gears into this one. I have a lot of these and are very good... The pioneer has no pushrods áll along the body, so the small ones shold do ok... Unless the factory holes are too big... It would be simple just to test fit, I know but it is on the way and servos take time to arrive too so I want to order them. What do you think, are these ok or should i look for bigger ones? I have an 80A esc and an emax gt2826-4 motor clocking 800w on 4s in my other plane which I plan to strip but i plan to run it on 3s /2800mah in the pioneer at approx 4-500w. I have a few of these batteries from my 450 helis 😃 worst case i just buy a 4s/3000 battery 😃 What do you think on my planned setup? I would be happy to have your opinion... also there are links to your build log in this forum but they are pointing to an empty dir... Is it available still somewhere? thanks Janos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Bertram Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hi Janos, Firstly, if you subscribe to the magazine, (RCM&E), there is a excellent serialised build article of the EPioneer by Martin Phillips which started with the January 2013 issue which you can read online. I didn't do a build log. I used Emax ES3103 servos all round which fit the holes perfectly and were recommended by Martin in his articles. For power I used an Emax 2820/07, a Pro 60A ESC from BRChobbies and a 4S 3200mah battery. I can't quite remember but I think this gave me something like 500W which is more than enough power and you can fly easily on half throttle. I should imagine that your set up with a 3S would be ample but as I am relatively new to the hobby I cannot say for sure. There are others out there far more experienced than me. I badly bent my EPioneer 6 months or so ago and had to wait for a new fuselage which is sitting here waiting for me to do something with it. Life is rather hectic at the moment. I will be away for a few days with limited internet access so may take a while to answer any questions. Cheers Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Posted by Janos Deak on 31/03/2015 06:14:54: Hello Bob that is good news 😃 One Pioneer is on the way... I got one at a great price I have other trainers havng Futaba s3003 servos but I hope I can fit smaller ones like Emax es08 metal gears into this one. I have a lot of these and are very good... The pioneer has no pushrods áll along the body, so the small ones shold do ok... Unless the factory holes are too big... It would be simple just to test fit, I know but it is on the way and servos take time to arrive too so I want to order them. What do you think, are these ok or should i look for bigger ones? I have an 80A esc and an emax gt2826-4 motor clocking 800w on 4s in my other plane which I plan to strip but i plan to run it on 3s /2800mah in the pioneer at approx 4-500w. I have a few of these batteries from my 450 helis 😃 worst case i just buy a 4s/3000 battery 😃 What do you think on my planned setup? I would be happy to have your opinion... also there are links to your build log in this forum but they are pointing to an empty dir... Is it available still somewhere? thanks Janos That's all looking good mate though I'd use no less than a 3300 3s or balance will be difficult to achieve. my COG was on 3s a tad behind the recommended and she felt a tad tail heavy at times, I have been lucky and only pranged mine once, but from that experience I'd recommend a good look at the fire wall glue joints before assembling possibly adding some triangle behind it using epoxy, my original set up used a 1000 kv 35 series ntm prop drive motor and as I've said the battery had to be hard against the fire wall to get anywhere near a proper balance, she now has a 4000 4s which is only 20mm back from the fire wall and she flies much better, not that she was unpleasant to fly before, in fact truly benign would be an accurate description, just watch the stall on landing as she will tempt you to go so slow you end up dumping her on the runway as the stall is simply a vertical drop with level wings All that said she is still the 1st model I get out and the last one to be packed away at the end of the day after all she got me safely through my A test last august Edited By Phil Winks on 31/03/2015 20:08:54 Edited By Phil Winks on 31/03/2015 20:10:13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Bob, Phil, Thanks for your replies. I have put up an order for a set of 5pcs of the Emax ES3104 servos, which are the metal version of the '03 and only a tad more pricey. I just love metal gears... this may come from my heli past That being said, I have 5 pieces of relatively new 3s 2800 35C lipo packs from my 450's... they are ~200g , plus the motor is also a big one with175g... and the 80A esc is not a light one either. I hope that should do it for the balance, worst case I will put the motor a bit more forward. Having them already is a great cost saving... so I will try to optimize the build for that. But thanks for the heads up, I'll keep a keen eye on the COG. And thanks for the tip, I'll check the body and the parts thoroughly for glue issues... and the triangles with epoxy is a good idea for the front and may also be used as extra weight Really-really worst case I can combine in series my twin 2S 3800 25C Lipo packs (from my 1/10 4WD buggy) to make a 4S, or use my giant 4S 5000 50C (~500g) but that will give me 800W power and 3000g thrust with a 10/5 prop (measured). With 3S I'll go for 11/5,5 prop, I have not measured it's power yet, but will do so. This is the graph for the 4S setup: Edited By Janos Deak on 31/03/2015 20:28:59 Edited By Janos Deak on 31/03/2015 20:30:13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Janos depending on your experience the 800W option would be a good one, because of the extra weight it won't fly much longer per charge but its performance will be more sport and less trainer, 800W is what I have in mine currently on a similar prop to what your looking at for a 4s set up. Loops and stall turns are on the button, rolls less so but I do still need to increase the aileron rates, little by little, also the extra weight gives her more stability in less than calm conditions. I fly on the top of a very exposed hill in Devon, so wind is something I've had to learn about, or not fly to often. I am beginning to believe that with the right power set up she will all but fly the B schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Very tempting indeed... I'll try with the 3s first just to get to know the plane and maybe advance to 4s later on. Actually, this is why I chose that given motor the first place - has spot on power range for trainers on 3 and 4s both. Just ran out of budget for now, so now stuck with the 2800mAh lipos, but this way at least I can get low wing load. Only if I can set the COG right Edited By Janos Deak on 31/03/2015 22:20:54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 The same motor turns 450 Watts on 3S and a 11x7 prop. 13x6 uses 475W, but too big... I don't have a 12-er at hand, so I'll stick with the 11x7. What do you think, 450W will be enough for a simple trainer role? Thx, JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I have an e-flite power 25 in mine, on a 3s its a turgid letharic lump that scarely wants to get of the ground - on a 4S (600W) its a different beastie - must get round to recovering the wing where I bodged a hole in it! And I totally agree with the need to check all the glued joints - when I first ran up the motor it ripped the firewall straight out - so get the epoxy and "splash it on all over" - I also glued the nose on permanently Edited By Dave Hopkin on 07/04/2015 23:18:26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Thanks. I took it seriously and already put a full tube of epoxy in the middle and bottom section. I'll add some more around the firewall area. I also bolted the motor mount to the firewall Dave, Just for reference, which KV motor do you have? 870 or 1250? I'd like to understand the power need... Thanks JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redex Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Hi Janos, I have to agree with Dave too, my E-Pio runs on a EnErG 4220 900Kv motor with 4S 4500 and APC-E 12*6 prop. Gives good performance (600+ Watts) and duration (8+ mins). The motor will also step up to a 5S if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Now that makes me sad... in several ways... As for one, I have a handful of 3S packs for my copters, I could have saved some money. On the other hand, if I need to use 4S, I will use 5000mAh 50C packs (I can get them delivered for <30GBP). A ~4000mAh would cost more... and I have used one of these on a bigger plane with great satisfaction... but it is a big bastard, with 500g weight. (compared to the 220g of the 3S/2800, for 17GBP) That will increase the overall weight by 280grams, meaning +15%, with higher wing load... etc. On the positive note, this should fix any kind of CG issue Although I need to add lots of more epoxy and a few extra load bearers... So I will build the plane around the BIG pack, but will try the small ones first, and see what comes out of it. As you can see in the chart, 800+Watts of power with my motor should be more than enough on 4S Question is the 450W... kind of on the borderline... with ~80W/lb Edited By Janos Deak on 08/04/2015 10:20:33 Edited By Janos Deak on 08/04/2015 10:21:44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Posted by Janos Deak on 08/04/2015 05:36:01: Just for reference, which KV motor do you have? 870 or 1250? I'd like to understand the power need... Thanks JD Well that sent me running to the shed! Its the 870kv version - with a 12x8 on the front Edited By Dave Hopkin on 08/04/2015 18:07:55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 JD don't overdo the epoxy or added bearers as the only strength issue I found was the fire wall to fuselage joint. On a 3300mah 3S with a 1000kv motor pulling nearly 475W on an 11x10 prop with an all up weight of 4.5lb mine flew fine albeit as a very stable and benign trainer, would just about loop but that's it. Were as on a 4000mah 4S and an 11x8.5 prop weighing 4.7lb and having 700W on tap she is, obviously much livelier tight loops, messy rolls (my skills or lack of), long ish vertical climbs to a well defined stall turn, are all possible, along with slightly shorter take of runs all in all a nicer aircraft for an intermediate pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Dave, Thanks for the trip to the shed I was glad to see You have the 870 version, that one is really meant for 4S with the low kv... good news for me, my motor is rather similar in kv and power to the high kv version, hence some hope Phil, I could literally remove some of the wood blocks by hand without damage... So I decided to redo all joint lines I can reach. Especially since I want to design the battery house and CG around the massive 4S/5000mAh/50C battery Would not be funny to see that brick hanging in the air... I need to pause now with the build as the servos are still on the way...somewhere in the world. Well, Maybe I can fix the wheels in the meantime. This is where I am now - in a few pics. (pics will follow as soon as I find out how to...) Cheers, JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 That sounds like you got a Friday afternoon model JD mine has done several hours flight time and the only weakness to show up is the fire wall when I dropped her short of the runway in long ish grass and the nose wheel ripped it out, she now has a six mm version epoxied in with triangle stock front and rear, similar subsequent mishaps have resulted in a slightly bent nose wheel leg and nothing else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I'll need longer velcros for the big battery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Also, I could take the motor mount apart... no worries, I have plenty of epoxy and patience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Nice presentation JD, that bty looks only a tad bigger than my 4000mah 4S.I notice you've used the nylon bolts to secure the nose, I went for a metal version with no detrimental effects and it gave me 4 spare bolts for the wing that I've not had to use yet, you can bet your shirt I'll lose one eventually though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janos Deak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Good idea with the bolts Phil, the nose will be epoxied to the fuse anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 On the subject of the motor mount mine came with both of them in kit form though the large one had two bottom sections and no top my only real complaint at the time of construction. I too bolted through the mount into the fire wall just seemed sensible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Winks Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I did leave mine un boltable and it helped when repairing the fire wall on my rather small work bench, also took the nylon nuts out and used metal T nuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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