Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 I've been doing some power and prop tests today using an FrSky Neuron 80 ESC. All has been going fine (except it looks like I could do with a 15.5" prop). All tests were with a 6S Lipo. I've just changed to do some tests using 5S and the ESC appears to be holding power really low. With 6S I was seeing 1600W. With 5S it reaches about 150W. So it's as if the ESC is assuming that I've connected a flat 6S and won't let me proceed. Is this a feature? Or, more likely, am I missing something simple? I'm doing this using combinations of 2S and 3S Lipos. Any of the packs, combined to make 6S, work fine. So all batteries are OK. When using 5S, the lipo volts hold up fine, going by the telemetry, but at full throttle I'm seeing around 150W at around 7.4A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 I can't see anything in the BlHeli32 .ini files that I saved for my Neuron 40s indicating that the esc has a reset input voltage or a default pack size that is saved. Can you try connecting it to BlHeli32 to see if it resets? How quickly were you trying different packs? Could it be that the last pack settings take time to decay in it's memory in the same way you need to switch off many electronic devices for 30 seconds or so after an error? Unlikely but I can't imagine what else t could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 Thanks Bob I was hoping you'd see this. Yes I'm pretty sure it was off for plenty long enough but I'll go out and have another quick try now it's been de-powered for over 30 mins. My next thing will be to find the BlHeli32 dongle I made a good while ago and work out how to use it again. (Age related skill fade is all too real). One thing I'll be looking for is any sort of settings (factory) reset. I'll report back. Most likely tomorrow, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 Update - Issue still present after a long time disconnected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 I'll see if I can excavate to my Ultra Stick tomorrow to see what happens if I run it on 4S instead of the usual 6S. Is yours an original 80 or the smaller 80S? edit or I can try the Deuces Wild wing which is handier, it has been run on 4S, I could try it on 3S. Edited By Bob Cotsford on 10/04/2020 19:19:43 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 It's a full sized 80. Which out of the box would only run the motor very slowly on 3S. That would be really useful, thanks Bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 that doesn't sound good. I have a fullsize 80 NIB, just wondering what I've got that would be an easy swap. Maybe the Wot4. It'll make a change from throwing a Panic together, I need to solder connectors on the 60A unit destined for that so I can try them both out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 I have what must be the Arduino interface for BL-Heli32. Just remind me - this connects to -Ve and signal of the throttle lead and the ESC has to be powered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Blandford Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 I had a similar problem, I ran my neuron first on 3 sells as I didn't want the current to go too high,it all worked fine. I then changed to a 4-cell pack and retested, again all worked fine. Then I wanted to test something else, so just put a 3-cell pack in again, and the motor hardly ran. The solution was to change the ramp up power setting, I went from 50% to 75%, then it worked OK on 3 cells again. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 Oh that's reassuring. Thanks Mike. I've not connected BLHeliSuite32 to this one at all yet. Tempted as I am to go and give this a try right now, there's a good few mosquitos out in the garden and I don't half react to the bites.. One thing we do have at the moment is plenty of time, so I'll hold off until tomorrow. I have the ardunio and a cable and the software is still on the laptop. I might also see if I can find my OTG cable and re-familiarise myself with doing it using my phone too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 Update - all sorted. At ramp up power = 75%, 5S was giving me about 600W but with ramp up power pushed up to 100% I'm gettng just over 1KW. I can only assume that that's flat out now. I'm not sure how I'd check, easily? So that leaves me really wanting 5.5S batteries. Or maybe I'll clip a 16x10 down to 15.5" and use 6S. (Or I'll fly the 10lb Sea Fury with 1600W as everything is well within spec. The Neuron does give the most excellent throttle control, after all). Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 11/04/2020 15:31:09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy48 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Posted by Chris Bott - Moderator on 11/04/2020 15:30:41: Update - all sorted. At ramp up power = 75%, 5S was giving me about 600W but with ramp up power pushed up to 100% I'm gettng just over 1KW. I can only assume that that's flat out now. I'm not sure how I'd check, easily? So that leaves me really wanting 5.5S batteries. Or maybe I'll clip a 16x10 down to 15.5" and use 6S. (Or I'll fly the 10lb Sea Fury with 1600W as everything is well within spec. The Neuron does give the most excellent throttle control, after all). Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 11/04/2020 15:31:09 Why not use the current limiter on the Neuron and leave everything else as it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 That's not a bad idea at all, Andy48. Thanks. We used to avoid that sort of thing because the biggest losses are while PWM switching is going on. But I guess things are way beyond that issue these days and anyway, that's how I'd be flying at part throttle. I'll give it a go and see if I can adjust to a linear throttle range. I'd rather it doesn't just top out with stick part way up. If that makes sense? I guess a similar way will be to alter the Tx endpoint. Or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 That's good to know in case of similar issues, though I'll have forgotten it by the end of the week . I take it a 16*8 or 15*10 are too far out? On my 430kv motors I use 6S and use either 8 or 10" pitch depending on the model. I must admit I do have a couple of models running Power52 equivalent motors (500kv?) which would be better suited to 5S but I run them on 6S with 12*8 props iirc as it makes packing the car easier to pack if I only have 3S,4S and 6S to choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 Having assumed I only had one pitch size each of 15" and 16" props, I'm very surprised to have dug out both a 16x8 and a 15x10. So a top up charge is in order and yet further testing. Thanks Bob, Andy48 and Mike. Yet another good idea in this thread. I would like to stick to 6S if at all possible, for the same reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Ballinger Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Only just noticed this. I guess I could look in the blheli manual but what is the purpose of the ramp up power setting and I am reading this correctly that the value gets chang3d when you change the pack size? Tim Edited By Tim Ballinger on 11/04/2020 16:20:52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 From Oscarliang.com: Rampup Power Rampup Power is a setting designed to reduce current spikes due to the sudden increases in throttle by limiting the change of power. If the motors are pushing close to the limit of your ESC’s, current spikes from punch-outs could inflict damage, reducing Rampup Power can lessen this risk. Leave it at default if you are unsure, as setting it too low can lead to slow motor response. Tim, no it doesn't change on it's own but Mike is suggesting changing it from the default 50%. Chris has confirmed that for his setup 100% worked. Perhaps the lower settings are simply limiting the motor's ability to accelerate to the point where they reach a steady state at full throttle? Here are the settings from the Neuron 60S's fitted in my Deuces Wild which are driving the motors up to 600+W each on 4S. You can see Ramp-Up Power is set to 50%. I have no idea where Eep_ESC_Layout=Neuron_40 came from! [ESC0] Eep_Name=Neuron 60S Right Eep_ESC_Layout=Neuron_40 Eep_ESC_Mode=2 Eep_FW_Main_Revision=32 Eep_FW_Sub_Revision=60 Eep_Layout_Revision=42 Eep_Pgm_Direction=1 Eep_Pgm_Rampup_Pwr=50 Eep_Pgm_Pwm_Freq=24 Eep_Pgm_Comm_Timing=16 Eep_Pgm_Demag_Comp=2 Eep_Pgm_Ppm_Min_Throttle=1040 Eep_Pgm_Ppm_Center_Throttle=1500 Eep_Pgm_Ppm_Max_Throttle=1960 Eep_Pgm_Enable_Throttle_Cal=1 Eep_Pgm_Temp_Prot_Enable=140 Eep_Pgm_Volt_Prot=0 Eep_Pgm_Curr_Prot=0 Eep_Pgm_Enable_Power_Prot=1 Eep_Pgm_Brake_On_Stop=50 Eep_Pgm_Beep_Strength=40 Eep_Pgm_Beacon_Strength=80 Eep_Pgm_Beacon_Delay=600 Eep_Pgm_LED_Control=0 Eep_Pgm_Max_Acceleration=0 Eep_Pgm_Nondamped_Mode=1 Eep_Pgm_Curr_Sense_Cal=100 Eep_Note_Config=255 Eep_Pgm_Sine_Mode=0 Eep_Pgm_Auto_Tlm_Mode=1 Eep_Hw_Voltage_Sense_Capable=0 Eep_Hw_Current_Sense_Capable=0 Eep_Hw_LED_Capable_0=2 Eep_Hw_LED_Capable_1=1 Eep_Hw_LED_Capable_2=3 Eep_Hw_LED_Capable_3=0 Eep_Nondamped_Capable=1 Eep_Note_Array= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 From the Neuron 80 manual: Rampup Power can be set to relative values from 3% to 150%. 3% is the minimum power to start the engine and 150% is the maximum power to operate the motor normally. That really makes things clear! With the 50% setting my UltraStick is still recording 1400W on take-off Edited By Bob Cotsford on 11/04/2020 16:48:38 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 Clear as mud OK - Results for the 16x8. Seems a good one to settle on, to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 What's that Chris, a 320kv? I think my 430kv's run about 1300W on a 15*10 if I remember correctly. If it's the Seagull SeaFury it should be quite sprightly at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 It's a 350kv Bob. A 15x10 jst gave me 1180W at 49 amps so is yet another option to try in the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Blandford Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 When I had the problem, I got this from RCGroups: "Try increasing ramp up power, or if that does not help, turn lo rpm power protection off. When you turn off low rpm power protection, you may have to set current limiting in order to avoid desyncs." If you are using a motor with low kv, then the "low rpm power protection" may be kicking in. The "ramp up" power fixed my problem, but I was using a 600 kv motor. You might try a few more experiments with the lower kv motor and the "low rpm power protection". Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 11, 2020 Author Share Posted April 11, 2020 Thanks Mike. One for tomorrow maybe. I might add an extension lead so I can break into the throttle lead easily. It was a pain today to take Sea Fury apart to access said connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Ballinger Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 I guess I can see the ways to fix the problems described but the overall logic still escapes me. if I understand correctly everything is fine on say a 5S setup. You change to a 6S and all is fine. You change back to a 5S setup and all is not fine. No changes to the ESC parameters involved. You increase the ramp up value and 5S is now fine again. Did I miss something? As described the ramp up setting should allow the motor to reach max performance at some point, unless it is current spiking all the time with peaks at least twice the ESC rating ( which it was not doing the first time it ran on the smaller battery). Very 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bott - Moderator Posted April 12, 2020 Author Share Posted April 12, 2020 Hi Tim That pretty much describes what I found except one detail. I started with 6S and then with 5S always had the same symptoms until I changed the ramp up setting. I still have to try changing the low rpm power protection, as mentioned by Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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