Geoff S

I don't have a Wot 4 Foam E but I do have both Riot (similar to the Wot 4) as well as a Mux Fun Cub. They are different aeroplanes. The Cub is great in relatively light winds and will do the book. The flaps are something else to play with. However, it's really restricted to winds less than about 10 mph. It's a very sturdy model. I lost the battery in mine when doing an outside loop and it floated down to earth inverted and landed on a concrete runway completelu undamaged except for the cowl which had been dislodged by the battery's escape. The Riot will also do the book once the CoG is moved back and the control throws increased. It's big advantage is that I'll fly it any wind and is my go to model in less than perfect conditions. A flying buddy has a Wot 4 Foam E and the models are quite similar in performance. I'd have both. Geoff

Provided that they're plated through holes on the PCB (as they probably are) then it's just a matter of soldering on the pin side and the solder will flow like thin cyano Otherwise you'll need to solder both sides but it's unlikely. As Plummet says using a small temperature controlled iron is best. I use an ancient (30 + years) 45 watt Weller. The power is irrelevant provided the temperature is controlled. His is a good point about soldering a couple of widely spaced piuns first on a multipin dil chip. Geoff

IIRC you're not supposed to use the hole drilled in the hub on APC E props but one of the supplied inserts to suit your shaft diameter. According to the information supplied with the props it's the outer recess that's accurate and that's where inserts locate. I've never had a problem with APC E props and they seem to be popular amongst electric flyers. Geoff

It looks stunning, Martin, though I think I'd have difficulty seeing it properly on anything other than a perfect day. I just wish I could build as quickly and as well. Just curious about a few points on your Tucano. 1: weight ready to fly 2: power train, current draw and duration in practice. Though I guess duration may still be uncertain aftewr just a few flights 3: In view of your comments re dihedral. Would you suggest those of us yet to start reduce it on our models? If so, to what? I'm not sure if the design dihedral is scale or not. Geoff

Only just seen this thread. I bought my Riot at Cosford from Inwoods and so far I must have had around 200 flights with it in all winds. As I like to do a few touch and goes each flight that could be about 800 landings. I love it. Mods? It went together really quickly. I was 'just looking' the evening I got it and before I knew it, it was assembled. I set it up as per instructions and, as others have said it's very mild. 1: I couldn't get my 2200 3S LiPos into the battery box because they'd already got Velcro attached for other models and the box is simply too shallow. So I removed the lid, added Velcro to the bottom and a couple of Velcro straps and it's been like that since. 2: It wouldn't spin, so I removed the steel weight (replaced with a bit of wood to support the foam) and moved the battery back as far as possible and it spins like a good 'un. I also increased all the control throws and it's now easily capable of the 'B' schedule - if only I could perform them skillfully enough to pass 3: With all the landings I do the 3mm bolts acting as axles eventually bent and I replaced them with high tensile cap heads and have had no further trouble. I think that's about it. Duration is about 8 minutes of aerobatic flight with 2200 3S batteries and 10 minutes with the 2650s I usually use. It's my model of choice if it's blowing hard and flying backwards is fun. It still has the original servos, motor, speed controller and prop. I could do with a bit more zip and the airframe would easily carry a bit more because it's so sturdy. It's also the model I put in the car every time I go flying. Geoff

As mode 2 flyer I always put some expo on aileron and elevator to give me some dead band in the middle and to minimise my hand cross-coupling the two controls. Due to a high spinal injury my right side doesn't work too well, particularly my right hand, so the expo and a using a tray helps a huge amount. I didn't start RC until after my injury I can't imagine why I started using mode 2 but it's too late to change now ... and I like being able to scratch my nose and still fly Geoff

I use cyano quite a bit and probably will on my Tucano but at the moment I'm completing a model I bought part finished at the Nats swap-meet. It's a Paper Aviation Ezee Pezee which is an 84" trainer constructed largely from Polyboard (a paper covered foam sheet) for which cyano is inappropriate so I'm using Titebond PVA. I get it from Modelfixings. So two electric models on the go at once. Despite its size the Ezee Peezee is very light (about 3.5 kg) and will be powered with a 5055 700kv motor probably on 4S with a 13x6 prop - I hope! It's interesting what Phil Winks says about some of the advantages of aliphatic resin, particularly as he is a professional woodworker. I do have some De Luxe materials Super Phatic which is very thin but I haven't used it much. It is very runny almost like water. I wonder if anyone has used it on those slightly hairy plastic hinges intended to be glued with cyano? I must admit the chemistry of adhesives and paints and their uses is something I have very little knowledge of and even less confidence so I tend to use what I know. Geoff

Geoff, I'm not sure that I follow your logic - it seems that you're actually reinforcing my point! One of the fundamental principle of soldering is, as you say, that you get good mechanical/electrical contact before applying the solder to seal the joint. In fact, as you mention exchange equipment, it might interest you to know that in the late 70s much terminating moved to wrapped joints - where the wire was wrapped round the terminals with a special applicator which regulated the tension applied and no solder was involved at all. Lead and tin are poor conductors compared to copper, silver or gold although of course they do conduct reasonably and are used in large cross section in terminating lead acid cells - I suspect to avoid problems from joining dissimilar metals in a hostile environment? High current/low voltage applications are more sensitive to additional resistance so a 50V supply operating a small relay coil wouldn't be as critical as a 3 cell LiPo supplying 40 Amps hence the occasional earthing to lead water pipes for shared service although in most cases a 3 foot earth spike would have been driven into the front garden - but even these might need watering in very dry weather! I remember faulting a piece of equipment at a customer's premises with an intermittent problem that I found to be due to a potential difference of 140 Volts between the water pipes and the mains earth when an electric fire was in use - the mains earth was bonded to the lead sheath of the mains supply cable... Edited By Martin Harris on 23/12/2012 01:40:53 I didn't actually work in the exchange manufacturing area but was involved in testing ICT 1301 computers in an adjacent section ... all the boards were wire wrapped to the main racks and that was in 1961. We used modified Stanley pump action screwdrivers. Wire wrapping actually creates cold welded connections at the corners of the pins. More recently, when designing micro-processor based logic systems for control and measurement applications for aero-engine testing, all the breadboarding was done using wire-wrap. That, and crimped connections (as we use for servo connectors) are very reliable. We also designed rotating radio telemetry systems to measure vibration, stress, temperature etc in gas turbines. They got hot (125 degC) and had to survive accelerations of around 20,000G. The PC boards were soldered with high temperarture solder with a high silver content and encapsulated in epoxy. Surprisingly, there were few component or electronic failures; most failures were the connections to the various transducers. Geoff

Posted by Peter Miller on 04/12/2012 08:28:20: Who ever finds out the time and date of this program first. Let us all know, not to be missed. James May does a great job. I loved the program where he bought some highly collectable mint in box Hornby trains and promptly threw the boxes away and started using them. The model train collectors went ape! A man after my own heart!   Mine too! 'Tich' Allen, the founder of the Vintage Motor Cycle Club was a great advocate of actually riding the bikes rather than treating them as museum pieces and thoroughly approved of our riding them in trials and getting them really dirty I've never understood the idea of collecting model aeroplane kits rather than building and flying them either. But each to his own I guess. We don't have a TV but I guess it'll be on iPlayer so I'll watch it on my PC. Sounds a good programme. Geoff Edited By Geoff Sleath on 23/12/2012 11:33:53

Posted by Danny Fenton on 23/12/2012 10:52:25: I used to find that my thin Zap would not clog the capillary tube at all and would be great for months at a time. Now I am finding the tube is clogging all the time. I have also had two large bottles of thin zap go completely thick. Never used to happen do you think the chemistry has changed? Cheers Danny The answer is to store it in the fridge. The cold extends the life and helps to stop it from going thick. Don't know about the chemistry - perhap your workshop is warmer? Geoff

Cyano doesn't really stick properly to the bottles it come in so it's usually possible to unclog the spouts but, if not, then keeping a few spare spouts works. I keep my fresh cyano in the fridge. It keeps better and doesn't thicken so quickly. The 5 Star people are always ready to chat if they're not busy. My wife likes to buy their special cyano and etching fluid for various gluing jobs around the house. That's why she doen't mind me keeping mine in the fridge alongside hers Geoff

Posted by Martin Harris on 17/12/2012 23:22:41: *The solder is there to hold the joint not provide the contact as it's not a great conductor. Actually it's quite the reverse. If you really think lead is a poor conductor then ask why, before plastic water pipes became common, the usual way of providing earths for household electrical supplies was to bond to the lead water pipe. The old telephone party lines also needed a good earth and used the same system. Soft soldering isn't a very good mechanical connection. I was brought up, lived behind and eventually worked in the family radio and TV business in the period during and just after WW2 and one of the first thing my Dad insisted on was to make a good mechanical connection before soldering. I regularly got told off for carrying the solder to the joint on the iron whilst holding a resistor or capacitor in my other hand I later worked at GEC and in the telephone exchange manufacturing area where reliable joints were essential, all the connections were wrapped round the tag before solder was applied ... and the outline of the wire was expected to show under the solder. THis was in the early 60s and all the irons were simple copper bars heated in a gas flame,which surprised me even then because I'd been using electric irons since I was about 10 years old. To get a good joint the first rule is cleanliness as many have already said. The second rule is an iron at the right temperature. It doesn't matter how big the iron is as long as it maintains about 700 deg F regardless. I reguarly use a small Weller temperature regulated iron I've had for over 30 years it's only 45 watts and it's temperature is maintained by a magnetic tip. However for big jobs I use my other Weller which is crude but big (120 watts) with a high thermal capacity and I've had it even longer than the little 'un. I use the big one for 4mm bullet connectors. I've soldered vintage motor cycle tanks with it. The third rule is to throw away any lead-free solder as far as you can. I've been using cored lead/tin solder for 60 years and really, there's no substitute. It is still possible to buy it. At least it was 3 years ago when I replenished my stock with enough to see me out. The fourth rule is cleanliness and a properly tinned iron and a properly tinned job. That's it. Geoff

Posted by PatMc on 13/12/2012 23:59:26: If I am at home & testing for direction of rotation I always remove (if it's already fitted) the prop. As much to avoid it blowing/sucking any loose light objects or paper etc that's close by as for safety. Since Christopher is a newby to electric flight it might also be worth mentioning that if he has a Futaba Tx he will probably need to reverse the throttle. Edited By PatMc on 14/12/2012 00:00:47 Couldn't agree more, Pat. If nothing else, setting up an electric power system is considerably less fraught without a propeller fitted. Once I've done the initial settings I fit aprop, restrain the model on the workshop floor (I use an upturned stool with foam taped to the legs to hold the model) and check the current draw and power consumption. If necessary I change the prop as required. I know an electric will stop going round (usually) when the propeller meets a substantial block like bone but it will continue to push hard until the smoke comes out of either the motor or the esc. That is different from an ic engine which simply stop applying force At the field, I always do a range check with the motor on. On Tuesday I was hoping to test fly my remotored Sonata E glider but there was some interaction between motor and other controls so I didn't. I suspect the cheap esc because even the 35Mhz Schulz receiver didn't cure it. I can feel a new FsSky 4 channel receiver coming on. Geoff

My very old 48" ws Lazy Bee started out with a 7 cell NiCad pack, a 600 size motor with a toothed belt drive gearbox. It didn't cope very well with wind and when the teeth wore on the drive pulley drifted away downwind and was lost. Fortunately the farmer found it with an intact wing and damaged fuselage. Now repaired, it has a brushless set up and I fly it on 3S LiPo 2200 pack. Can't remember what the motor/prop combination is - a cheap motor, certainly The most important tool an electric flyer can own is a means of measuring current draw in operation. Modern Wattmeters are very cheap compared to the Astroflight one I still use and well worth buying. I'm fairly sure your set up will work and in any case it's worth trying as you already own it. But check the current draw and change the prop size (I don't think the colour matters ) to keep it withing the limits of both the esc and the motor. You don't need much power for a Bee. They're very light (about 1kg?) so 150 to 200 watts should be adequate. I haven't had mine out for ages. I'll take it up to the field next time I go. Geoff

I have a Maher's Thunderbird with a Zenoah 26 and I replaced the steel M5 wing bolts with nylon simply because nylon bolts don't easily undo like steel is likely to. I was a bit wary at first but after dozens of flights they've proved more than adequate. I've added some thin ply to avoid crushing the wing but I didn't think it was posible to tighten the steel bolts sufficently. Unfortunately on mine the T nuts are well glued in or I'd replace them wth 6mm. Geoff Edited By Geoff Sleath on 20/12/2012 17:18:11

I've given up flying commercially completely. The last time was early 2001 (before 911) when we took our road bikes on a package holiday to Benidorm to cycle in the mountains. As just about every flight we've ever done has involved taking bikes and, mostly, camping gear now the days of bikes etc being classed as part of the standard baggage allowance has ended we don't fly. The extra security checks I've read about, the strict limits on luggage and the general hassle make it just not worth bothering. We have a campervan now and usually take that abroad to the near continent with much less trouble on the ferries ... and I like ships I feel a bit of a hypocrite because my pension is paid by Rolls-Royce Geoff

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 16/12/2012 21:05:48: Geoff, if you have a problem with the wood pack you should contact MHS in the first instance. BEB I've just done that and they were very helpful at MHS. Hopefully the shortage will be rectified on future woodpacks. They offered to send me the triangular stock but really the chances of its arriving in usable lengths are slight and, as the cost and inconvenience to me is negligible, I told them not to bother. Phil: Yes, I've seen (and printed out) your latest updates. I'm really just studying the drawings and thinking about the build here in the warmth of my workshop/study because I feel to lousy to do much else. I'll probably fit captive nuts to the new rearward firewall to make motor fitting easier. That may mean making the new F1 removable. Outrunners can be tricky to line up when the only bit you can get hold of rotates relative to the bit with the mounting holes. Front mounting the new motor in my Sonata glider was a nightmare until I hit on the idea of scewing an extra long 3mm bolt into the motor to pull it into place. Lots of ways of skinning this particular cat. I think the most difficult part of the build to make a decent looking job of may well be the wing fairings but that's a long way down the line. Geoff

I love my Multiplex 3030 and I have a number of high quality 35 Mhz DSP receivers so most of my models are 35Mhz. However I've made an add-on 2.4gHz system for my 3030 using a FrSky DiY module and it works really well. I'm flying electric mor these days and brushless esc generate lots of noise which 35Mhz DSP receivers can cope with OK but 2.4gHz receivers do it even better. I'm very impressed with FrSky and they use a true frequency shifting system which makes them very secure from an RF point of view. So I'm waiting for the new FrSky transmitters to become available before abandoning my faithful Mux 3030 and even then I'll keep it for some models. I've recently started playing with Eflite Blade helicopters for the winter indoor season so, much against my better judgement, I've bought a Spektrum DX6i solely for my MSRx and 120SR electric helis. I'm quite impressed with it but it isn't as flexible as the Multiplex. Perhaps the fact that I'm a retired electronic design engineer is something to do with my radio choices Geoff

I'm a bit nervous of the wing shaping but you've given me a little confidence that it is, at least, possible. Yours look very good. I'm assuming your wings are not from the CNC pack because I can't see the aileron cut out. Whilst checking my CNC pack I separated the aileron for one wing and now realise I'll have to tack it back in place for the shaping process. I won't start on my wings until I have the fuselage done because I wnat to measure how big the cantre section needs to be as I;m going for a detachable wing. Geoff

An update on the CNC wood packs. Mine lacked the 12mm triangular stock needed for the fuselage top. Not much of a problem for me as I have some in stock but I'll get in touch with SLEC (or should it be My Hobby Stores?) on Monday and mention it so that it will be included in later packs. I've checked the fuselage sides and they are slightly too deep as mentioned earlier. They seem to need 5mm sliced off to match the height of F3 after allowing for the curvature which obviously can't easily be shown on a flat plan. I haven't taken a scalpel to the wood yet so I'd appreciate a confirmation from someone else before I do. I'll also be trimming the wing aperture to be 10mm deep and square as I'm going for the removable wing mod as per Phil Winks. The engine mount is 6mm plywood instead of 3mm as on the plan. Again not a problem for me as it will need to be removable for me to allow fitting the motor on a rearward firewall as Phil Winks' modification shows. Otherwise seems to be OK. Geoff

5mm will be more than adequate I think. That's all that's holding the wings on my 84" ws Maher's Thunderbird powered with a Zenoah 26 and they haven't fallen off yet. Geoff Edited By Geoff Sleath on 16/12/2012 20:05:23

I've opted for an XYH3542 1000kv from Giany Shark. It's slightly heavier that a 3536 but a bit of extra weight up front might be worth it. In any case, it's easier to prop down if it's too much than find you need more power and be unable to get it and contain the smoke at the same time. I think XYH are actually the manufacturers of a lot of similarly numbered motors ostensibly from different sources. Giant Shark also include a fitting kit in the £12.04 price. I'll be using a Black Mantis 50 amp esc from the same source mainly because I already have a couple of similar 60 amp versions in other models and I have a programming card. Not sure what LiPo pack to use. I have 2200 Mah amd 2650 mAH 3S packs as well as 4S 3600 mAh. The bigger packs are exactly the same length and width as the smaller but twice as thick ; they're obviously heavier but that might not be a disadvntage for balance. I intend to use a folding prop of suitable size without an undercarriage. I'm crap at hand launching but I'll make a simple launching dolly to tke off on our tarmac runway and belly land on the grass. The folder will be less likely to get broken on landing. Geoff

Posted by Phil Winks on 16/12/2012 15:42:13: the cross mount measures 41 mm across the centre those measurements are of the square formed by the hole centres ie: the 2 short sides of a triangle (29 x 29 =841 x 2 =1682 sq root of which = 41 pythagarus ) DUH! Considering geometry was my favourite subject at school (is it still studied?) and the proof of Pythagoras' theorem something I admired that should have occurred to me. I thought there may be sufficient depth in the wing crank but the problem niggled at me last night when I couldn't sleep because of the lousy cold I have and it seemed worth a mention. Whilst browsing today I ordered a motor and esc from Giant Shark. The motor is an XYH3542 1000 kv and a Black Mantis 50 amp esc. I already have a couple of Black Mantis esc and the programming card so it semed sensible. I apologise for doubting you So it's 5mm wing bolts then? Geoff

Another thought occurs to me about the cranked design of the detachable wing. The aileron torque rods need to be straight and the wing is quite thin so care will be needed or the rod will be below the bottom of the wing in the straight section where they are cranked up for the servo link connection. Having looked at your drawings, Phil, I think it will be OK but it needs to be taken into account. Thanks for your efforts. I was already thinking of a detachable wing because even relatively small one-piece models can be inconvenient to store and the Tucano isn't a tiny model at 45" ws. I have just (last week) re-motored my Sonata 'E' glider with one of the NTM Prop drive motors (3536 1400kv) and I think they'll be ideal for the Tucano.  I'm thinking along the lines of a 3542 1000kv. I was also intending to add a 'firewall as you suggest. So thanks again. A couple of queries: 1 Is there any reason you didn't mount the firewall at an angle rather than pack the engine mount to get the right side thrust? 2 You show the motor cross-shaped mount as having 29mm between the mounting holes. I didn't use the cross mount on mine but I bought one 'in case'. Mine measures about 42mm. 29mm is actually less than the diameter of the motor (35mm). Are you sure that's right? Once again thanks for making your design available to us all. It's much appreciated. Geoff Edited By Geoff Sleath on 16/12/2012 13:05:09

I like your idea for a detachable wing and I think I'll do something very similar. I intend to use 2 aileron servos, probably 5 gram ones, so that I can try using spoilerons to slow it down for landing. Nigel says in his original article that the model tends to float on a lot. I fly a Riot quite a lot and I'm surprised how very small servos are quite capable of controlling an aerobatic model weighing about 1.5kg. Have you thought of using Modelfixings' threaded inserts for the wing bolts rather than 'T' nuts? They'd be much easier to hide. Would 4mm be sufficient? Geoff Edited By Geoff Sleath on 14/12/2012 17:58:32