Gary Manuel
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Posts posted by Gary Manuel
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You could always just get on plane and fly to Aden for the winter if you like it there so much. I'm quite happy here in Britain, dark cold winter month's n' all.
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53 minutes ago, MattyB said:
Unfortunately on modern cars it's not necessarily as simple as that. In many cases physical buttons (and the spaces where they used to be put) are vanishing from dashboards to be replaced by a large touchscreen tablet style interface. This is partly because it is (apparently) what the majority of customers want, but also because it saves money for the manufacturers - dashboard wiring is far simpler and quicker to install if you don't have to get wires to buttons spread liberally across the cabin.
Even where there is a physical switch in the cabin, these are rarely directly inline with the function being controlled. What I mean by that is the switch is just an input to one of the myriad computers spread across a modern vehicle, and is it is that computer which will take one or more sequenced, software based actions as a result. For example, the reversing noise being generated here is highly unlikely to be a simple beeper - it will be a sound sound file playing through a speaker unit that requires a trigger from the computer to play.
Yes, in theory an inline switch could be inserted somewhere just upstream of the sound unit to cut voltage and prevent it operating whenever the driver wants to silence it. However, a) that is likely to give a dashboard warning light that will need to be cleared every time you use it, and b) fitting that switch so it is accessible will be an absolute wiring nightmare. That is why Nissan are far more likely to approach this with a software update that enables it to be silenced from the main screen - not necessarily convenient for the driver, but at least the option will be there.
Switch position is available and it's right in front of the AVAS module behind the dashboard. Easy to find with Google. I'd be happy if Nissan offered to fit this but TBH they should completely silence the illegal reversing alarm at all times, not just with a switch.
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50 minutes ago, MattyB said:
The other option is to get someone like Which? involved; stuff like this is their bread and butter, and they have been pretty successful in the past on similar issues (though they are less influential than in their pre-internet heyday in the 80s and 90s).
Good idea. I know it's not a big deal but as things are going, it will start to affect more and more people. Things like this need to be harmonised (pun intended) across all brands. A publication like Which might help.
I'm an eternal optimist (with a hint of realism), so I'm hoping that Nissan will sort something out. The prospect of litigation and losing future custom is what will concentrate their minds, not what 1 customer thinks.
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4 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:
It’s a little more complex than if you owned it but perhaps you could take it up with the leasing company? Tell them that it is not fit for purpose as you can’t use it at night and have a reasonable expectation to be able to do so and ask them to help resolve it if they don’t want you to take action to terminate the contract or maybe look into other legal action.
If you had purchased it yourself then I suspect that you could have the right to return it and get your money back under consumer legislation due to it not being fit for purpose - perhaps that might concentrate Nissan’s minds into providing an override?
That comes later on my list. At the moment, I am giving Nissan Customer Services a chance to deal with it.
PS. It's not just using it at night that's the problem. It's illegal for any vehicle under 2 Tonnes to have one fitted at all in the UK.
Can you imagine the sound of Asda car park in a few years time if all cars sounded like this? The poor old blind person wouldn't know which way to turn. That's why it's illegal and that's why Tesla's, BMWs etc don't have them fitted.
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3 hours ago, Andy Stephenson said:
Am I missing something here, if it's possible to disconnect the sounder, it's also possible to put a switch in the circuit.
Yes, I could have it silenced within minutes (I listed the options a couple of pages back), but then I'd become liable in the event of an accident and would invalidate the insurance, warranty and terms of lease. I want to silence it the proper way, by getting the manufacturer to fix what I consider to be a manufacturing defect.
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It would appear that the legality of the reversing alarm is not a new issue to Nissan.
They were forced to delay the sale of UK models back in 2011 for this very reason!!!
I'm not sure what has changed since then, other than the recent introduction of the requirement for AVAS.
I suspect that they have just shoe-horned the existing reversing alarm sound into the new AVAS system and run with it.
My view is that if the reversing beeper was illegal in 2011, then it is still illegal today.
Source:
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/8880765.nissan-leaf-facing-delay/
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Jon.
Convince your boss at work that he needs an upgrade and then offer to dispose of the old one 😉
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43 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:
Looking at Matty's link, they need to be off where the speed limit us 30mph and therefore likely to be residential. Interesting.
Cheers gents.
If you read my last post, they should be off at all times. Reversing alarms are reserved for HGVs, busses, plant etc. It is illegal for any car to have a reversing alarm AT ANY TIME!
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1 hour ago, MattyB said:
I suspect they will just ignore it tbh - after all, the chances of enforcement action being taken on this point is vanishingly small.
They might ignore it but I won't unless they give me a valid answer.
4 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:Don't larger vehicles, like buses and lorries, have reversing beepers fitted as standard? Do they switch off at night? Generally curious, not being confrontational..... 🙂
I don't know whether they are fitted as standard, but if they are, there is a legal requirement for them to be switched off at night (99.(1)(b) below) and in sensitive locations.
Here's the complete legislation below.
Note that according to (my) emboldened text in part 99(3) this legislation, the Nissan Leaf should not be fitted with one at all - BUT being an EV, it now introduces the new AVAS (simulated engine sound), which applies to reversing as well as forwards driving. This is where the confusion between the reversing beeper and the reversing AVAS sound is coming from.
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99.—(1) Subject to the following paragraphs, no person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded, any horn, gong, bell or siren fitted to or carried on a vehicle which is—
(a)stationary on a road, at any time, other than at times of danger due to another moving vehicle on or near the road; or
(b)in motion on a restricted road, between 23.30 hours and 07.00 hours in the following morning.
(2) The provisions of paragraph (1)(a) do not apply in respect of the sounding of a reversing alarm when the vehicle to which it is fitted is about to move backwards and its engine is running.
(3) No person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded, on a road any reversing alarm fitted to a vehicle—
(a)unless the vehicle is a goods vehicle which has a maximum gross weight not less than 2000 kg, a bus, engineering plant, or a works truck; or
(b)if the sound of the alarm is likely to be confused with a sound emitted in the operation of a pedestrian crossing established, or having effect as if established, under Part III of the 1984 Act.
(4) Subject to the provisions of the following paragraphs, no person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded a gong, bell, siren or two-tone horn, fitted to or otherwise carried on a vehicle (whether it is stationary or not).
(5) Nothing in paragraph (1) or (4) shall prevent the sounding of—
(a)an instrument or apparatus fitted to, or otherwise carried on, a vehicle at a time when the vehicle is being used for one of the purposes specified in regulation 37(5) and it is necessary or desirable to do so either to indicate to other road users the urgency of the purposes for which the vehicle is being used, or to warn other road users of the presence of the vehicle on the road; or
(b)a horn (not being a two-tone horn), bell, gong or siren—
(i) to raise alarm as to the theft or attempted theft of the vehicle or its contents; or
(ii) in the case of a bus, to summon help for the driver, the conductor or an inspector.
(6) Subject to the provisions of section 62 of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 and notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (1) and (4) above, a person may, between 12.00 hours and 19.00 hours, sound or cause or permit to be sounded an instrument or apparatus, other than a two-tone horn, fitted to or otherwise carried on a vehicle, being an instrument or apparatus designed to emit a sound for the purpose of informing members of the public that the vehicle is conveying goods for sale, if, when the apparatus or instrument is sounded, it is sounded only for that purpose.
(7) For the purposes of this regulation the expressions which are referred to in regulation 37(10) have the meanings there given to them and the expression “restricted road” in paragraph (1) means a road which is a restricted road for the purpose of section 81 of the 1984 Act.
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Nah, I'll just drive it. I don't like my neighbours anyway 😉
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Alternative speech bubble "For heaven's sake Harold, that's the Nestles, not the Netflix"
4 minutes ago, Peter Miller said:
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As I see it, the UK legislation on using a buzzer / beeper at night in a built up area is clear. If Nissan have a get-out-of-jail-free-card to play, it won't be that the user doesn't really need to drive the car at night if he plans his life properly (and doesn't work night shifts). It might be that they argue that the sounder is not a horn, bell, gong or siren. It might be that they argue that it is a safety feature which is there to warn pedestrians day or night. It might just be that the product is type approved to EU legislation and that's that.
The bottom line is that they have messed up, combining the reversing sounder and the AVAS into one module. The EU legislation has forced them (and other manufacturers when they catch up) to provide a safety audible tone which cannot be switched off. This is supported by UK legislation. Unfortunately, the non-mandatory reversing sound which needs to be disabled at night within the UK cannot be switched off / reduced in volume on the Nissan as it is part of the mandatory system.
I doubt very much whether I'll get anywhere but I think it's a cause worth fighting. If it makes them consider it for future models then it will have been worth it.
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PS it does have an option to set a speed limit.
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10 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:
Playing devil’s advocate, I’m sure your car is capable of exceeding most, if not all speed limits but the maker isn’t responsible (yet!) for limiting its speed. Similarly, you aren’t compelled to reverse so they might argue that, in the same way that you should leave home in sufficient time to get to your destination without speeding, you could plan your manoeuvres to avoid reversing in a restricted road or place.
Hardly practical I know - and unattractive to potential buyers but possibly enough for them to avoid any liability to modify your existing vehicle.
It's a Nissan Leaf, not a Nissan Cinderella. It doesn't need to be home before the clock strikes twelve.
My car is capable of exceeding the speed limit, but it is my choice whether I do this or not. Similarly it is my choice whether I drive the car after midnight. The car has lights fitted, presumably to allow me to drive at night. Problem is that I can't legally reverse it off the drive to do so.
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I can't fault Nissan Customer Services:
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Dear Mr Manuel,
Thank you for your response.
We are sorry for the inconvenience that this may have caused.
I would like to inform you that it may not possible to retrospectively fit a switch as these kinds of changes are supposed to be done at the point of manufacturing According to our information our previous answer is correct concerning the regulation of the vehicle .
However, for more information I am going to escalate this question to our experts. I will get back to you once I heard back from them.
Thank you for patience.If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us using the details below.
Kind regards
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and my reply to fill the hole I found in the UK legislation:
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Thank you for escalating my concerns to your experts.Could you please ensure that they are aware of the source of UK legislation which applies specifically to the reversing sounder at night rather than the more general use of the "Acoustic Vehicle Alerting System" (AVAS), which I have no problem with. It is this UK legislation which I believe is making the reversing of my Nissan Leaf in a built-up area illegal between the hours of 23:30 and 07:00.The UK legislation is to be found in the UK government Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986.Legislation is available in different versions: Latest Available (revised):The latest available updated version of the legislation incorporating changes made by subsequent legislation and applied by our editorial team.Changes we have not yet applied to the text, can be found in the ‘Changes to Legislation’ area.www.legislation.gov.ukThe specific wording reads:
use of audible warning instruments99.—(1) Subject to the following paragraphs, no person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded, any horn, gong, bell or siren fitted to or carried on a vehicle which is—(a)stationary on a road, at any time, other than at times of danger due to another moving vehicle on or near the road; or(b)in motion on a restricted road, between 23.30 hours and 07.00 hours in the following morning.*************************************************************************************************
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1 hour ago, Tim Kearsley said:
What charger are you going for Gary? Is it one of the "smart" chargers that will divert power to the car when there's excess solar? I bought a 7kW Pod Point charger back in 2018, before smart chargers were really well known. I wish now of course that I had something like the Zappi charger. Up to now, I've not bothered trying to trickle charge the car from solar, as I am paying 5p/kWh to charge and getting 4.5p/kWh for export, so the 0.5p/kWh difference is insignificant. From Oct 29th my Go cheap rate goes to 7.5p/kWh, so it will be worth doing. GivEnergy, who supplied my battery and inverter, are introducing their own smart charger, priced at £499. I'm in two minds at the moment whether to go for it.
Charger will be an Ohme Home Pro 2. Not yet fully solar integrated (they are apparently still working on this feature) but shouldn't be an issue as I think I will be able to charge the car from batteries / inverter and all excess solar used to recharge the batteries. My electricity usage is actually significantly higher than the solar panels will deliver, so I am thinking that I will just end up charging the car from the grid at the 7.5 /kWh rate at the same time that I am topping up the batteries.
GivEnergy charger sounds like a bargain (once it is available).
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7 hours ago, Piers Bowlan said:
My July 2021 Leaf+ Tekna has a switch to switch the <20mph forward warning off. When reversing is quiet as a mouse with not a sound!
Leaf;- well designed and built. Quick and relaxing to drive. Reliable and economical.
That's the annoying thing. Nissan appear to have taken it upon themselves to add the really loud reversing "noise" with no way of turning it off when other companies haven't. As I say, other than that, it's a nice car.
On a more positive note, here's a photo of my smart meter monitor. Note the peak in kWh representing charging the car between 00:30 and 04:30 (00:40 to 04:20 actually - just in case).
Here's the same usage represented as £s. The peak has completely gone due to the 7.5p per unit 4 hours Octopus Go rate. Very satisfying 🙂. It will get even more satisfying after my fast charger gets installed in 2 weeks time and then my solar / battery system later in the year (when products become available).
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I think I know what Nissan's reply will be. Drat. Hole spotted in UK gov legislation.
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16 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:
Sounds like sumat from Doctor Who, still musn't grumble. 🤣
No - just have a good old chuckle like the work men did.....
Anyway, I have an update. Ten out of 10 for Nissan Customer Services in getting back to me so quickly with the following reply:
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Dear Mr Manuel,
Thank you for contacting Nissan Customer Services about your Nissan Leaf REG-xxxxxxx VIN- xxxxxxxxxxxx and its specifications.
We here at Nissan pride ourselves on the durability and technical excellence of our vehicles.
We understand that you have contacted us due to reversing sound of your vehicle. We would like to inform you that It is not possible to disable this feature, as per regulation ECE-138.
It is important to us to provide innovation that excites us, and as such we are constantly finding new ways to change and improve our product line-up.
Due to our focus on improving and modifying our models, variations of each model may have different components, software and hardware.
Sometimes, modifications are made when creating our newer models, other features may need to be removed to accommodate them or to make the vehicle affordable for our customers.
We do apologise that your Nissan leaf does not have the same components as the Nissan vehicles you had seen previously.
We do appreciate the fact you have taken the time to let us know your feedback on this feature, and we will ensure that this feedback is recorded in our systems for internal review.
If you have any further enquiries, please do not hesitate to contact us using the details provided below.
Kind regards***********************************************************************************************************************
and my reply back to them:
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Thank you for your reply on this matter.I understand that ECE-138 (clause 6.2.6) requires that the "pause function" is not permitted and would explain why the switch has been removed for countries where this standard still applies.The vehicle in question was however, supplied within the UK and should therefore be compliant with Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2017/1576. This supersedes (and in fact refers to) ECE-138. The vehicle should therefore be fitted with a switch to allow the sounder to be temporarily disabled. As stated within my original query, this is to allow for legal use of the vehicle within the hours of 23:30 and 07:00 and at noise sensitive locations.Could I therefore repeat my request that my car to be retrospectively fitted with a switch to make it legal for me to drive at night?Regards,Gary Manuel***********************************************************************************************************************
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1 hour ago, Don Fry said:
Am I getting a bit OTT here. Car reverses, gives warning. Necessity. Built up area, warning siren still quieter than pedestrian crushed under car, (and yes, I have heard that sound). I find the low speed rumble that electric cars make still very quite, I’ll get used to it in time, but a silent machine, moves back, no noise, one light, no thanks.
Not asking for silence. The subtle sound it makes going forwards would be fine, but the reverse sound is MUCH louder. I took my wife to the dentist yesterday and had to reverse out of the car park. A group of workmen stopped what they were doing INSIDE the dentist and came outside to see what all the commotion was about. It's embarrassing!
This is the old style Leaf, but the sound is similar. Yuk.
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Yes, I've seen it.
Options are:
1. Disconnect the speaker but that also disconnects the simulated engine noise when moving slowly forwards. Also gives a dashboard warning.
2. Use an OBD2 plug / LeafSpy Pro Android software to change it, but Nissan have disabled this for latest models (grrr).
3. Put a sock in the speaker or tape it up to reduce the output level.
4. Wire a switch between pin 5 on the sound module and ground (this is where the missing dashboard switch should be wired).
I shouldn't need to and won't be doing any of these.
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5 minutes ago, Shaun Walsh said:
There's probably an option to turn it off in page fourteen of the LCD menu under "obscure settings"
I wish it was that simple.
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I've just sent the following question to Nissan UK Customer Services. Let's see what they have to say about it. I resisted the temptation to send it as a complaint, but that option is always open as a next step.
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I recently picked up my 2022 Nissan Leaf from Evans Halshaw in Doncaster. I am generally pleased with it but I have one major concern. The car has a very loud annoying sounder which comes on when reversing. There does not appear to be any way of silencing this sounder.
This is contrary to the requirements of UK legislation, which requires cars with such devices to be fitted with a switch to allow the driver to silence the sounder when judged necessary. Such times would include when reversing in sensitive areas such as in hospital / hospice grounds or during the hours from 11:30 pm to 07:00 am in built up areas when it would in fact be illegal!
The following link is an extract from the UK government website which shows the requirements for Electric Vehicles. The requirement for the switch is shown in Section II clause 2(b).
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2017/1576/annex/paragraph/1
The following link is from the UK government Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986. Section 99(1)(b) clearly shows that a sounder must not sound within the hours 23:30 and 07:00 on a restricted road.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/99/made
I note that older UK models of the Nissan Leaf had a switch on the dashboard to silence the alarm, but it is missing from my vehicle. Would it be possible for my car to be retrospectively fitted with a switch to make it legal for me to drive at night, or for you to explain to me why mine is not fitted with a switch?
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1 hour ago, Don Fry said:
Having had to jump out of the way on a regular basis in car parks when blind homicidal maniacs reverse out of spaces without looking, over the years, a bleep to warn, “en garde”, is good.
I agree, but the Nissan Leaf sound is comical and embarrassing. I haven't used it at night yet, but I assume it still beeps. Surely illegal between 11:30 pm and 7:00 am in built up areas! Even railway crossings need to be quietened / silenced at those times in order to pass the DforT inspection, so a beeping car should not be allowed either.
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Blade type & Holder to avoid Finger Slashing
in All Things Model Flying
Posted · Edited by Gary Manuel
Swann Morton blades take some beating but I find that the open scalpel Handles are a bit of a hazard to leave lying around on a work bench. Yes you can slip a cork or similar onto the blade but I find that the Swann Morton Retractaway handles are the ideal solution. Just get into the habit of retracting the blade when not in use. https://www.scalpelsandblades.co.uk/handle-detail_166_retractaway-premium-knife-swann-morton-product-no-2806-9206-.php