Nigel Heather
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Posts posted by Nigel Heather
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44 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:
Nicely said Nigel!
What do you fly at the moment ? (You may well have said in this or another thread...)
I currently have two foamies - a battered AcroWot and a Max Thrust Ruckus to replace it.
Liked the AcroWot to begin with but the design for the motor mount is terrible and I soon started experiencing the wobbly thrust line. Then I managed to put it into the ground trying something to adventurous - managed to stick it back together but doesn’t look pretty and has made the wobbly thrust line even worse. I bought a Max Thrust Ruckus to replace it, more robust but doesn’t fly as nice as the AcroWot.
Over the years I have had plenty of planes, Yamamoto high wing trainer, Precedent Fun Fly, Chipmunk, Panic, Limbo Dancer, Wot4, AcroWot (balsa one), Puppeteer, Zagi.
I was much more accomplished and confident in my younger years, used to fly with a friend so was often at the field and would egg each other on. I then moved to a different part of the country and although I flew at clubs it became a more solitary affair. My interest then switched to helicopters, had a Raptor 50 that I was progressing slowly with. Then children happened and later a long work assignment that had me away from home and as a result the hobby got paused for about 15 years.
When I came back, I was much older had lost my confidence, my daring and my fine control - it wasn’t starting totally afresh but it was like I was a beginner again. Plus in the time I had been away everything had changed - electric power had taken over, light foam planes were everywhere, all the companies I knew and loved had disappeared or were on their last legs.
So I see myself now as a beginner at A Certificate level.
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6 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:
This may he a dumb statement, but why is Nigel limited to 12" props? It's not built yet so maybe the undercarriage can be a little longer, and the wheels a little larger...........
It’s the tricycle undercarriage. Of course, you could replace the legs with longer ones or convert to a tail dragger, but out of the box it is a trike and anything bigger than 12” will likely hit the ground when landing. -
20 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:
So what have you got in your collection?
I have the ubiquitous 3S 2200, two types of 4S(a more compact 2600 and a bigger 3500) and also some 6S 2250 (for a helicopter but probably will need replacing soon, if I decide to stick with the helicopter).I bought the Gangster because I saw it in the 4-Max recommended setups and it all seemed rather reasonable.
Now with all this talk of bigger motors, ESCs and 5S batteries I’m considering whether I should just shelve the kit or sell it on.
Cheers,
Nigel
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51 minutes ago, Kim Taylor said:
Can I just stick my head above the parapet here and say that, in my opinion, this model doesn't need 1kW to fly it in the manner that (I think) Nigel is intending to use it.
My one, although it has a motor capable of producing circa 1.3kW, is propped down to (iirc) 750W and it does everything that I (a sport flyer) need it to do. It will fly a conventional (not 3D) aerobatic schedule and is unlimited vertical. My motor is 470kV and the battery is 6s 3000, but that's only because I had them 'in stock'.
It would fly perfectly happily, and with the same energy capacity on a 700 - 800kV motor and 4s 4500 LiPo, and would do everything that a 'sport' flyer needs and more.
If Nigel wants it to do 3D aeros or fly an F?? schedule, then all of the above is probably nonsense, but you wouldn't be building a Gangster to do that, imho.
As an aside, you'd have difficulty fitting a large enough prop to absorb 1kW. 12" is the practical maximum (without modification) 13" can work on a billiard table smooth strip.
Like I said, just my opinion👍
Kim
Absolutely, more often than not, and a lot of it is my own fault, I end up in conversations like this that have the opposite effect to that intended, it leaves me in despair with thoughts of giving up the hobby altogether.
Basically, I’m not a very accomplished flier. I’ve been at it for years but with work and other commitments I have been on and off, plus I have a whole host of other hobbies, RC flying is not my ‘only love’ I’m not one of those that is down the field every day.
So although I have be ‘at it’ for years, I class myself as a confident beginner, could pass the A Certificate, happy flying solo, don’t crash that much.
What I was looking for in the Gangster is a sports plane that I can start to improve my aerobatics, make them more clean and tidy. I have no intention or desire to enter the world of competition flying, and if I were I don’t think the Gangster would be a great choice. Just general sports flying but cleaner, tidier, more precise.
I went for the Gangster because I’ve seen them fly and quite like them, I wanted a bigger traditional build, heard good things about them, and it was cheap.
Although cheap, I was aware that there were other costs to finish and it would be more expensive than an ARTF, but my hope is that I would end up with something that is better and have ‘fun’ getting there. My worry is the way these conversations often trend is that I’m in danger of buying a Lada and fitting a Ferrari engine.
So absolutely, I’m happy to spend a little more to get a better model, but I don’t want it getting out of hand.
For example, I started out thinking I would use £10 servos, I don’t mind suggestions that I should use £15 ones instead but I don’t want to fit £30 ones.
Or the motor/ESC, I was looking at an affordable pairing that was going to cost £80 and make use of batteries that I already have, but feel that it is getting out of hand with £150 gear and having to buy a whole new set of 5S batteries.
I just want a sports plane that I can fly nicely and I can improve my rudimental skills. In the unlikely event that I fall in love and want to go into competition, then I would invest in a more appropriate model.
BTW - I’m not having a go at anyone, I really appreciate all the input and I recognise that I’m often guilty of fuelling these conversations myself because I often find myself saying “but this better widget is only an extra £s” so I do have a tendency to over-engineer.
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56 minutes ago, Kim Taylor said:
Look at the relative weight of each of the motors - if the motor is heavier, then it's likely that it can take the extra current.
There is a school of thought that rates motor power by weight. Personally, I'd rather rely on the published performance data, but hey - maybe I'm wrong.🤔
Wrt the 4-Max motors, there seems to be a rather large 'hole' in their range, insofar as there are no 40mm dia motors, which normally fill the gap between about 500 - 800 watts.
In my 'lite' I've got an oversize motor, propped down to about 750W (bear in mind I estimate it weighs nearer 5lb than 4). I used this because I had it in my spares drawer and I'm too cheap to buy new bits when I can re-purpose old ones.😀 In your position, I'd be looking at a 4050 case size motor of 700 - 800kV if running 4s. Prop it to 700 - 750W with something like a 12x8e (guessing - someone with ecalc may feel like chipping in).
The 4lb published weight is - how should I put this - ambitious!! There's plenty of evidence in this thread to suggest that 5lb is a much more likely outcome, once you've got a sensible powertrain installed. Just my opinion, ymmv.
Kim
eta Meant to say, prop clearance on anything larger than 12" is going to be marginal on anything other than short, smooth grass or a hard runway. I have used a 13" previously, but it's not ideal!!
Thanks, that is great information and advice, I shall follow your example.
Still puzzled by motor specs though - the 4-Max and Thumper motors are identical in weight - well one is 154g and the other is 157g.
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Must admit that although I am doing my best to embrace electric power I struggle to understand the motor specifications, and I've got a degree in electronics!
As an example, take the 4-Max 3547-800 - it is in the 600W - 1200W section of their website, so I'd naturally think that it is at least 600W.
It states that it can use 3S or 4S batteries - so 11.1V or 14.8V.
But then it states that the max current is 36A, but it can only handle that for 10 sec, the continuous current is 29A.
So using the largest voltage, 14.8V the max power is
Max = 14.8 x 36 = 533W
Continuous = 14.8 x 29 = 429W
So how on earth is this in the 600W to 1200W section?
In the past I have asked 4-Max about this but didn't get a convincing explanation.
Now it gets even more confusing when I look at the equivalent Thumper, 3548-900
Now Overlander say that this is a 710W motor.
They also rate it for 3S and 4S, but they quote a maximum current of 60A (and don't state any time restriction).
So the thumper works out at 14.8 x 60 = 888 which is higher than the quoted 710W, so maybe they mean with 3S, so 11.1 x 60 = 666W
That is not 710W either but that does sit between 666W and 888W.
Obviously these are two different motors but I struggle to imagine that they are that different - but the specs say that they are very different (max amps, 36 versus 60)
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Anyone done an electric power setup. Looking on the 4-Max website they recommend the following
Motor - 3547-800
ESC - 50A
Prop - 12x7
Battery - 4S 3300
Does that sound about right to you?
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1 hour ago, Peter Jenkins said:
The key question for the Savox 351 is will it run on 6 v. JR used to be strictly 4.8 v only and 6 v, 5 cell NiMH, would fry them. If they are not rated for 6 v you will be limited to a 4 cell NiMH or turn down the supply from the BEC if you go that route.
Yes they will - in fact that is how Savox quote them. The thing is that BECs on the simpler ESCs only do 4.8V, I could run a separate UBEC at 6V but would prefer not to do that. -
I have looked at the Savox 351 - initially thought that was the answer but as I dig a little deeper I’m not sure.
The spec looked good, torque of 4.1, a little slow at 0.17 secs but fine for my ability.
But then I realised that this is at 6.0V
It took a bit of time finding the spec for 4.8V, the manufacturer site doesn’t even list it but found it on the Servo Store website but only in imperial units so took a bit of conversion.
At 4.8V it is quite unimpressive, toque = 3.2 and speed = 0.22
So not so sure about that.
For the Gangster, in my shortlist I have
Corona 339, size = mini, weight = 32g, torque = 4.4, speed = 0.15
Savox 351, size = standard, weight = 41g, torque = 3.2, speed = 0.22
Running at 4.8V, Corona has metal gears, Savox has plastic, both digital, both ball-raced
Think I would need to look at the Savox 352
Cheers,
Nigel
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5 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:
Or just buy a branded servo for £12 and be done with it. https://www.modelshopleeds.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=66633&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw9-6oBhBaEiwAHv1QvBIdEOxHlRkMy3nV5A7nh5buCqH8-vwqfXEpzGJ2-8jialP1Dop0kRoCsukQAvD_BwE
These are fine for sport models (wot 4, acrowot, spacewalker etc) up to about 80 inch and 20-30cc class. If its a dedicated aerobatic model like an edge or extra, then 65-70 inch. WWII fighters 70-90 inch depending on the surface its used on and the specific model.
With the demise of the 148 and hitec 311's being so expensive this savox 351 will be my go to servo for more or less everything with the 352 for a little extra elevator pull, and 252 in mind for things like flaps on my big warbirds as they need a bunch of power to move them.
Thanks, these look good.
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Yes but I take these guarantees with a pinch of salt.
Servo fails (branded or no-name), plane crashes, £300 written off.
No-Name -possibly tough luck
Branded - £20 servo replaced
I doubt any of the big names will accept liability and refund the damage that their faulty servo caused.
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I get that there are super duper servos cost £50 or more each bit I'm not looking to spend that sort of money.
What I'm trying to establish is if I look at a no-name servo for £12 and compare it with the entry-level Futaba for £20 how much difference is there.
The no-name has digital electronics, metal gears and ball-raced shaft.
The entry-level Futaba has analog electronics, plastic gears and bushed shaft.
Which is more accurate, which is more robust, which will wear better, how much does the Futaba sticker cost.
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6 hours ago, Nigel R said:
Going up a size to the DS-339MG at 32g, for four servos is only adding 40g or 1.5oz overall and whilst us average mortals will not notice the difference in flight performance, we might notice e.g. a lack of elevator, if the gears strip.
Not quite sure what you are saying her - I wasn't suggesting putting the 339s in the Fusion II, that would be for the Gangster 63 Lite as an alternative to standard size. But I want my Gangster to fly quite precise so wondering whether I should put something better in it.
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I get what you need, you want a servo that has the torque needed for the model, one that centres well, does not have any slop, has bearings and gears that don't wear easily/quickly.
But how do you choose that - is it really the case that budget servos are all poor and you have to buy expensive branded servos.
Also what are the thoughts on metal vs plastic gears. You'd naturally think that metal were better but I've seen comments saying that metal wears quicker than plastic.
Cheers,
Nigel
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The makers of the Fusion II fun fly manufacturer recommends Corona DS-238MG (which are 22g 4.0kg) so I was going to buy those.
When looking at the Corona site I was think of going with the Corona DS-339MG (which are 32g 4.4kg) for the Gangster.
For the funfighter I’ll probably use the EMAX in the wing as you suggest and probably Corona DS-238MG on elevator and rudder.
That leaves me with two EMAX spare.
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1 hour ago, Peter Jenkins said:
Nigel, this is the type of aircraft that you will notice the accuracy of good quality servos. Do not opt for cheap and cheerful otherwise they will not allow you to trim the aircraft accurately. A servo that accurately centres from both extremes and very small movements is essential.
How do I know what a good servo is, which one centres well and support very small movements - can you simply assume that a servo with a lesser known brand is poor and one with a Futaba label is fantastic. -
Just got one of these - paid extra for the accessories but thinking that was a waste as the quality doesn’t appear to be that good. Didn’t get a spinner, not sure whether it was missing or not provided any more, but would have probably fitted a different one any way. The wheels are very budget and I’ll probably end up replacing them for bigger diameter any way. The hinges are those cheap bendy plastic types so probably won’t use those either. So the accessory pack was probably a waste.
I’m going to build as electric power, want to keep weight down so considering using lighter servos - any thoughts on that - I intend to put a servo in each wing.
Also, disappointed to find that there is no plane - I guess the photo manual and this thread will get me through it - fortunately I’m not new to building. But do agree that I don’t think all is covered by the manual - for example, the kit contains a CNC cut sheet for an electric motor mount but no mention of this in the instructions.
Any guidance on thrust angles- are they not needed, built into the design, or do I need to add them myself - if the latter, any advice on what they should be.
Cheers,
Nigel
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Is that Cambia/Cambrian Fun Fighter BF-109?
I have one in the stash which I’d like to build as electric powered and it would be good to share ideas.
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11 hours ago, martin collins 1 said:
Had an enjoyable day at the BMFA Model Builders show at Buckminster, Manny had given me a couple of tables to demonstrate and promote building models using foamboard and depron. I think it surprised a number of people how light and cheaply airframes can be built using these easily available materials. Entry to the Builders show is FREE, why not come along tomorrow and say hi, it is also a chance to pick up some of your winter modelling supplies from some of the traders there. I have nothing to sell, just trying to show a different approach to airframe construction.
If lived nearer then I would pop along. BTW you say it is FREE to enter but the website says it is £5 - not that I would begrudge the entry fee, just noting the conflicting information.
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12 hours ago, Kim Taylor said:
I sheeted mine all over with 1/16th balsa, as it looked like a starved horse with the ribs all sticking out, and I felt that it was all too flexible as standard.
You may disagree, of course. Have fun😀
Kim
Thanks for the heads up and tips. Hadn’t thought about the ‘starved horse’ look, should have done because I dismissed an off scale spitfire kit early this year because of that. So maybe I’ll sheet mine too - but makes me wonder whether I should have gone for the foam wing version. Sheeting - does it add much weight - probably not that much?I appreciate that it is an old design so going to need some extra thought to convert to electric.
BTW - I paid the extra for the accessory set - overall quite disappointed with the contents and don’t think I will use many of them - though in closer inspection I was happy to see that steerable nose wheel brackets are included for those not using the IC engine mount.
So are you saying that you just fixed the nose wheel - if so, how did you lock it in place?
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Thanks for the ideas. Pretty much as I thought and I am well aware of the practice of ‘badging’.
My interest is that the Surpass motors are cheaper than the Overlander that I was looking at, so if they are the same thing then why not.
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Are these the same thing?
I am quite familiar with the Overlander Thumper range, but yesterday, I discovered the Surpass Hobby motors and my immediate thought was they they look very similar.
I didn't do an exhaustive search but I looked at a motor that I was considering from both companies and they are technically identical - dimensions, weight, shape, power, rated currents, kV, poles etc. all exactly the same.
Got me wondering whether Surpass Hobby is a clone or whether they come out the same factory, identical with different badges.
Another bit of circumstantial evidence is that eCalc does not have Overlander Thumper motors and when I asked the developer they said that this was because Overlander won't supply the technical details needed to include them. I wonder whether it isn't won't but can't, because Overlander just slap their labels on and don't know the technical details.
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Thanks, I'll have to see one of those in the flesh - it doesn't indicate what size rod it supports.
But definitely something like this is what I would be looking for.
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1 hour ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:
I would fit them in the Fusion 11 myself, bumf on the model recommends Corona micros, those Emax you have are metal geared.
Yes, I’ve noticed that - though those coronas are a bit bigger/stronger.Cheers,
Nigel
Mick Reeves Gangster 63 Lite
in Build Blogs and Kit Reviews
Posted
What is frustrating is whenever I have asked questions about electric setups I’ve been told - look at 4-Max, speak to George, look at their recommended setups, you can’t go wrong, they know their stuff.
So when I found the Gangster in their recommended setups I thought I had a clear specification to work with - but now I’m being told that 4-Max are wrong so I don’t know what to think. The hobby was so much easier 20 years ago when we just had glow engines.