Rapide
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Posts posted by Rapide
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So another twist to my Rapide story:
A pilot who still flies G-AHAG has told me that the markings on the aircraft in the photo I posted, could not be us boarding in the 1950's as it did not bear the words "Scenic Flights" until mid '60s. So it was back to square one to think it out again if I am to fix the correct Registration number on my model.
I have another pic which is me and my sister posing in front of a Rapide that is unidentifiable. So I went with the comment that I remember from the rather posh gent who welcomed us at Portsmouth with the words "So what was it like to be flown by a woman Eh? She's the first ever female captain of a commercial passenger airline". Having researched that in the hope of finding identification of the actual aircraft, it led me to well documented stories of Jackie Moggridge who is described as the that person - piloting a return flight from Portsmouth to Sandown Airport (Isle of Wight) rather than Bembridge, when given a test period employed by what was to become Channel Airways. There may be a year difference but it definitely fits what me and my sister remember. And then another stroke of luck from enquiring to a website called Solent Aviatrix (female pilots). The lady who runs that replied to say that Jackie's daughter is a friend of hers and has the relevant log-book!!! So I await the result of a read of the appropriate entry to see if it states the Aircraft identity. Watch this space.
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I am an rc flyer of little knowledge so I hugely appreciate your info. The first time I heard of a Spartan (apart from a car my sister once owned) was last week when, because ages ago I was a fundraiser for historic aircraft, I got involved in this appeal to bring a three seat version back to Sandown from NZ. The model is still there on ebay but doesn't come up under RC model aircraft. Try loading Spartan Arrow. Seller is in Brentwood.
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Thank you so much for the response. That is a beautiful model. By coincidence a much used 60" model has just appeared for sale on ebay. I have enquired with the seller. I am involved in an appeal to bring back a full size aircraft from New Zealand to the Isle of Wight where it was built and operated.
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I have seen on Utube a rc model of a Spartan Arrow biplane but no clue as to who the flyer is. Does anyone know anyone who has built one or has a plan?
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And there's a happy ending:- I said that I was building the Rapide because it was the first aircraft I ever flew in - with my sister and dad from Bembridge to Hilsea (Portsmouth). My sister unearthed a photo of us boarding, which she confirmed was 1956 and the Registration number is clearly visible. When I googled the number, to my utter surprise, I found it is still flying 😊. I have been in touch with the current operator, Scillonia Airways, and will relive the flight this year.
Damn - that means I've got to change the colour scheme.............
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How did you copy that. I could not find a way. It just came up with a copyright claim which I respected. Hope he doesn't enforce it. There are other useful George quotes on the subject.
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13 hours ago, Caveman said:
Hi Rapide, I’ve looked at the 4Max website at the listing for the specified motor, and the the advice pages for wiring multiple brushless motors , and I can’t find anything which says that these motors will burn out if run at full throttle. Can you post a link to this information?
The only thing I can see is that the motor web page says that only GWS props should be used, whereas you listing shows APC props.
Thanks GDB
Thankyou Caveman, There are a number of mentions on the 4-Max website of high revs leading to burn out burning out but they won't allow copying sections to paste elsewhere. For one mention, go to the website and click on "Brushless Motors".
For ages, I have bench tested electric motors without cooling before flying with them, mostly to avoid fault-finding in the air, but never for a long period and always without a problem - until now.
Interesting point you make about the prop - I assume the initials are manufacturers names? But I don't know the difference. As with most things in electric flight, I have never questioned the wisdom of George! -
Having had advice from all angles (which was very helpful) and read everything I can find on the subject, and taken apart the motors and tested my wiring, I have concluded as dry solder joints usually cause "oscillation" and that did not happen, that cause is unlikely. The main cause suggested by most, and ironically, that I now read on the 4-Max website a specific warning about, and that exactly fits with what happened, is these motors WILL burn-out if run at full throttle. It would help if a prominent notice stating this fact was on the motor description AND on the package that it is sold in.
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As this is already the most expensive and time consuming model I have ever attempted, buying the motors/ESCs/Lipo/wiring/connectors/solder all over again is sadly a non-starter. I have six other aircraft - 5 of which have flown carrying my soldering and hardware installations and all survived and only await decent weather to fly again. So I have decided to just finish the Rapide and hang it up to admire the first aircraft I ever flew in. That was nearly 65 years ago (not possible!) with my ex WWII RAF pilot Dad, flown by the first ever female commercial airline (BEA) captain from Bembridge on the Isle of Wight to possibly Southsea.
So thankyou all once again and I'll let you get back to building/flying.
Cheers, Ian -
George at 4-Max replied quickly as usual and his opinion is very logical so I accept his conclusion that it sounds like a dry/high resistance solder joint/s which work OK at low current levels but would become apparent when high current is drawn. If there is a bad solder joint on one or more of the 3 wires that go between the ESC and the motor, you no longer have a motor, but you have a heater, as there is effectively a direct short across one of the coils in the motor which will burn out if the power isn’t removed immediately.
With my level of expertise, I am quite prepared to accept it was down to my soldering, especially as for each motor there are 3 male and female connectors from the motor to the extension wires and 3 more from the extension wires to the ESC. For both motors, that is a total of 24 soldered connecters with no way of knowing if any or all are good.
Overheating due to no props (earlybird) is a good thought but I feel less likely as I only ran them low for about 10 seconds and the burnout then occurred about 3 seconds after full throttle was applied.
I hope this is all helpful to someone. I shall finish the model (motor and wheel fairings - struts - aileron links) and return to motors later - perhaps.
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1 hour ago, Outrunner said:
That lot is different to what you first quoted🤔
I would speak to 4 Max
Yes - my mistake, the first was a suggestion from another company that I did not buy from. I then ordered the recommended package from George.
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55 minutes ago, EarlyBird said:
@George Worley - 4-Max is the expert.
Thanks for your responses. I assure you I am getting in touch with George as it was his recommended package for the Dumas Rapide that he sold me.
For further info in case anyone can guess what went wrong I offer the following which is exactly how I wired it:-
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I tried to edit the above but couldn't work out how to. The actual hardware order was:
2x Motor PPOM-2314-2400 £14.99 each www.4-max.co.uk/ppom-2314-2400.html
2x ESC 4M-ESC12A £13.95 each www.4-max.co.uk/4m-esc12a.html
2x Prop Driver PP-PDRV30-50 £ 2.75 each www.4-max.co.uk/propdrivers.htm
1x Prop APCE 6x4 Standard £ 2.55 each www.4-max.co.uk/apc-props.htm
1x Prop APCE 6x4 Pusher £ 2.80 each www.4-max.co.uk/apc-props.htm
1x Battery PPL-60C2S-1300 £11.00 each www.4-max.co.uk/lipos.htm
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2 hours ago, Outrunner said:
That doesn't sound good. How many Amps was your setup pulling? They look like very large props on them motors, could just be the photo though.
I hope you get it sorted as it looks a really nice model.
Thank you for responding. Do not know how many Amps it was pulling. I relied on the expertise of the set-up I was sold and I still would believe that 4-Max know what they are talking about. They recommended specifically for the Dumas Rapide:
MOTORS 2 x Thumper T2822/27 B/L Motors SKU2973
PROPS 2 x APC E 8 x 4 Props. APCLP08040E
SPEED CONS 2 x 20amp ESC Units HW80060010
BATTERIES 2 x 3s 850mah Lipo or similar SKU2817
So we are looking for something else at present - wiring thickness perhaps? but I don't understand how that could affect the motors. As for prop size (which came with the package supposedly designed for the actual Dumas model) I was of course testing with props removed when the damage was done. I am assuming the ESP's can not be relied on.
All thoughts welcome...................
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DISASTER ...........
I was just getting keen on finishing and wired up the motors - I am sure I wired it correctly - even remembered to detach one of the ESC red wires - Powered it up and all seemed great - responded to throttle stick - then I pushed it to full revs and smoke appeared from both motors - One even melted the three wires coming from the motor. I used the pack of recommended items (motors/ESCs/Lipo) from George at 4-Max as apparently supplied to you Chris. Have you got as far as completing the wiring and testing the motors etc ? Looks like I will not be flying very soon. Its think-again time.
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Auto focus on my camera decided not to work but I offer the pics anyway to show progress on my build. This is a great kit but I admit that my skills are not quite up to is demands. Don’t let that put off anyone buying it as with trial, error and running repairs, I am on the last lap and so far, so good. The all-up weight is just under 22ozs, mostly due to the beefed up motor mounts and some strengthening on fin and wing trailing edge to fight the iron on covering shrinkage. All radio gear is in and working, including the wing tip servos location. I made the nose removeable with magnets to access the battery, and am about to tackle the plastic fairings. I am leaving the main worry until the end which is the warping of the very fragile tailplanes which I have failed to correct with reheat. Any tips on that would be welcome.
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This is a beautiful model and the kit is great but oooooooh I am getting frustrated with it. There are now a lot of fiddly bits/detail towards the end of the build and I am spending hours of happy time working on each of them. I have covered all but the lower wings using Ripmax Aerofilm in silver which is a joy to use and does look good. The rudder and elevator are attached to the servos and they work well. I have spent today carefully trimming and fitting the plastic access hatch cover and the nose and cockpit cover mouldings. Held it up to admire and noticed in horror that the heatshrink covering has warped the tailplanes due to their fragile structure - I do hope I can gently heat them straight again. Just as well the weather is not great for flying.........................
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On 27/12/2023 at 14:52, Rapide said:
a 1/16" shim under the training edge of Rib 10
That should read "Rib 12"
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2 hours ago, Chris Walby said:
I still haven't finished mine and as my late wife bought it for me, well its at the end of the build list at the moment. I have bought film for it, but am now seriously considering dope and tissue and whether it just becomes a hanger queen once its complete.
Please keep posting Rapide and it will help me when I get back around to it,
Chris
Forgive going off topic for a moment but I keep looking at your Mosquito avatar - my dad flew them - and last year I had the coveted seat in the one at East Kirkby for taxi trials and testing the engines for their Lancaster - A MERLIN IN EACH YEAR.
Yes, am finding it hard to get back to finishing the Rapide. Here's a few things that held up the re-start (intending to be helpful - not to discourage you)
I had a similar problem to that mentioned earlier in this thread with the motor Xcross mount supplied with the motors sent by George4Max. Having struggled to build the alternative outrider motor mount extension demonstrated in the RC Groups Forum (also previously mentioned) it was only then that I found the black X mounts were too big to screw to the recommended ply "firewall", so I snipped off the holes at the end of each X mount arm and redrilled as close as I dare to the new ends. Then I found the screw heads were too close to the motor base and resorted to bolts with smaller heads. Fiddly but they are firmly in place now.
Next I found a lot of conflicting advice on washout on the RC Groups Forum so on Christmas Eve I PM'd Pat Tritle who got back to me immediately to say to build the wings flat on the plan then, when ready to cover, pin to the board with a 1/16" shim under the training edge of Rib 10 and shrink the covering to hold the washout angle. He stressed that the angle is not critical so long as it is the same on each of the 4 wings.
Then a simple thing held me up as I wondered how to stop the tube through which the rod from servo to elevator flopping around in side the fuselage but was given a very simple answer from Engine Doctor (see above)
So as the silver lightweight Solite had arrived, I wanted to cover something so started with the rudder. The shrinkage immediately pulled down the fragile top balsa so I stripped it and strengthened the top curve. Having received a super covering iron from my grandson for Christmas, I have just successfully covered the rudder and am very pleased with the result.
Right now I am looking at the instruction for using the hinge material supplied with the kit but, more importantly, how to fix them to the control surfaces and WHERE as the locations are not shown on the plan. I have of course done this on other kits but used the heavier plastic ones with the tiny metal rod. Whilst cutting a slot in the wing spars where they meet the aileron would be fine but the angle of the aileron spar where it meets the wing would seem to prevent their use.
As usual, Any advise welcome.
Ian, Rugby UK
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Thankyou ED. Will try it today.
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Hello after a long gap. So I learnt to fly again (after 50 years, and that was single channel) and as its 2 Christmas's since I started the Rapide kit, and the weather is lousy, I am determined to complete the model. I have mounted the motors (what a time consuming task that was), installed the servos/receiver and started to cover the tail fin. Unfortunately as the covering shrank it pulled the fragile rounded top down so I had to take off the covering and strengthen the balsa top curve. I am expecting similar problems with other fragile parts. I am about to work out how to secure the tube through which the elevator wire runs so that it is not flopping about inside the fuselage. Any tips are welcome. I bet those in the Holy lands and Ukraine wish they only had these problems!
Happy Christmas. -
That was really useful. Answered my query and other questions that I didn't know I needed to ask .......
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I posted on another Rapide thread as I could not log on for some reason and have rejoined. User name and password are different but I am still Ian Lauder!
After a long break to join a club and learn how to fly RC and build a Super 60 - I have returned to the Dumas Rapide build and am stuck at the engine mounting stage. George at 4-Max sold me a bundle of hardware that he recommends for this kit and it included two 2 x PPOM-2314-2400 Brushless Motors which have a mounting cross to be fixed to the rear of the motor. Offering them to the plan, they seem to just fit inside the outline of the cowl as previous posters have shown here, but I have to construct a firewall to bolt the cross to. Has anyone mastered this and can suggest the best way to do it whilst saving weight?
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I have this kit and at the motor mounting stage but have been trying to work out best way to mount them. George at 4-Max sold me a bundle that he recommends for this kit and it included 2 x PPOM-2314-2400 Brushless Motors which have a mounting cross to be fixed to the rear of the motor. Offering them to the plan, they seem to fit inside the outline of the fairing but I have to construct a firewall to bolt the cross to. Has anyone mastered this and can suggest the best way to do it whilst saving weight?
Spartan Arrow
in All Things Model Flying
Posted
I did send the seller an enquiry 3 days ago but got no reply. I think I'll leave it.