EZE-Fan (Nigel Hawes) Gluing Help !!!

[Rob Barrett]

Hi everyone,

Just about to start on my first model build, this weekend, and have decided on the above RCM&E plan.

Collecting the balsa in the morning and canopy due anyday but (and please forgive my ignorance) can anyone recomend a specific glue which will do the job but help to keep the weight to a minimum - I've previously 'caked' my 'trainer plane' in 5 min and 30 min devcon epoxy for many, many repairs butsomehow I think I need to be a bit more careful with this build !

How much should I use ?

Also can anyone recomend a good razor saw and mitre block ?

Any help or information would be very gratefully received ?

Thanks to you all,

Rob "the beginner"

[Tim Mackey]

As it is a balsa construction, why not just use a decent CA ( superglue ).

Not  great choice of razor saws I fear...but whichever you buy, check for a nice strong stiff backbone along the full length of the blade, as they do bend easily if not careful. Choose a metal mitre box as the wooden ones will eventually allow the blade to wander slightly as the slot opens up a little. Just my opinion of course....

Oh yes...and good luck with the build ...why not blog it here for all to see /help. 

[Rob Barrett]

Thanks Timbo.

Does the CA need to be spread fully along one or both joints ?

Is this stronger and lighter than epoxy ?

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Barrett]

Thanks Ivor but is there a rule with cyano eg so many drops per cm / inch ?

How long do you leave this to set before you re- work ?

I'll check out the Exacto's - I've already come accross a range called MAXX and another called EXPO but I'm unsure how good they are - if anyone had experiences, good or bad, I'd love to know as I'm off to the shops later this morning !

I know in the past I has some cheap modelling knives (small blue plastic box set of 3 x handles and about a dozen 'magnetted in' spare / different blades) and they just broke due to a 'crappy' plastic spigot belween the stem and part where the blade is held !

Can you recommend a good cyano ?

Thanks again,

Rob

[Tim Mackey]

No rule as far as I know...but really very little is needed as is does "wick" quite readily. It sets instantly, and can be improved by the use of activator- often referred to as "kicker".

pacer make a good cyano, Zap a gap.

Certainly MUCH lighter than epoxy....but then again so is lead !

[Rob Barrett]

Cheers Timbo - you always seem to be one of the 'always helping sort' on this forum - thank you.

Ironically purchased some cyano today and guess what ? Its Zap a gap !

Got all my balsa from SLEC today too (what a great company they are!) !

Almost ready to get started with my EZE-Fan / FIRST balsa model build - excited but nervous !!!

Rob

PS Got an "Excel" razor saw which came with a nice little mitre block - just hope the spiggot is metal and not the cheap plastic variety ! 

[Andy Green]

Ref Cyano

I wouldn't use cyano for the main build, its quick and strong, but locally it makes the wood hard, hence brittle.

My opinion it's best to use PVA or Aliphatic, just as strong if you make good joints and allow to dry, but with some flex.

Andy

[Rob Barrett]

Thanks Andy but what about the weight issue - my guess is PVA glue is pretty heavy in comparison to cyano ?

What sort of time would you, personally, allow for PVA glue to fully set ?

Cheers,

Rob

[Andy Green]

PVA has been the staple glue for years, and don't worry about the weight, I build rubber powered / tissue covered indoor models with it. (I even thin it to tack the tissue in place)

30 mins is about right, try some it grabs in a couple of minutes but needs longer to soak in and cure. It air dries so is only good where air can get to the joint, so it's no good for areas like fuselage doublers, here I use Evostick (you can only but it if you look 30).

 Andy

[Adrian Smith]

hi, I've been around in the modelling scene for quite a few years and first wanted to build a typhoon when I saw P.E.NORMAN'S plan in 1970. After that DENNIS BRYANT designed a tiffy for 60 power in the mid 70's. since then there has been a few others. But I have to say, your plan for the tif is the most clear and the most logical build I have seen. congratulations on designing and building a fine replica tony. Please do take my next comments as criticism, only experienced observations noted whilst reading your write up in R.C.M.E. tailwheels....FREE CASTORING.....not a good idea unless it can be locked in the fore and aft position for take off and landing as in the full size. groung looping is the main problem coupled with the frantic stick bending to get straight tracking until the speed builds up to the point where the model is up on its main wheels. pitching..... if the side view of the fuz is observed, it should be noted that the wheels are ahead of the balance point when in the down position, and if the underside plan view of the wing is looked at, you will note that the wheels now lay behind the balance point when retracted. and thats the reason for the nose rising when the gear is retracted after take off, there has been a rearward shift of weight making the plane slightly tail heavy. SOLUTION. balance the plane with the gear retracted,( when the gear is lowered prior to landing, the forward shift of weight will give a slight nose down attitude, most favourable as it will decrease the stall albeit at a raised landing speed). tony, you took the nose rise as a factor caused by the drag of the raised gear being reduced, possibly you are right but I think it prudent to alert future fliers of the gross inportance of the balance point. It doesnt matter a jot if the plane is tail or nose heavy when on the ground but a tail heavy plane on its first flight is a sight to see and experience even for seasoned pilots.

[Adrian Smith]

Hi, its me again. dont forget when buying the retracts to ask for total travel to be at least 97 degrees to allow for the out of square fitment in the wings. DO NOT buy 90 degree types other wise when the wheels are laying in the wings and the wheel covers are flush with the wing skin, they wont extend far enough to be parallel to the fuz and will also be tipping in, (ala Fw190) ( If you look at a tiffy head on, the wheel struts actually cant outwards slightly. anhedral wing (as per full size) or flat centre section, it would still look better. If you tony or anyone else would like to take me to task regarding these or any other matters... please feel free.. I would love to chat. regards adrian.

[Adrian Smith]

Sorry Tony, in my first email i said to take my observation as critcism ! I meant the opposite! PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY OBSERVATIONS AS CRITICISM. regards adrian.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Think you're on the wrong thread Adrian.....all interesting stuff but not much use for gluing an EZE Fan together !!!!!!!

Rob...I think if you ask 10 aeromodellers which glue to use you will get 11 answers...it is so often down to personal experience & preference. There is an interesting thread running on glues....try http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forum/forummessages/mps/UTN/1580/URN/3/dt/4/srchdte/0/cp/1/v/1/sp/

My own personal view is that cyano is fine for general airframe assembly but for high stress areas like wing joining & firewalls you need epoxy. Another factor is how well you can build. cyano has NO gap filling ability unless you use a really thick product or add another product like micro ballons whereas PVA & epoxy will fill gaps quite nicely. I recently built a little kit that had been CNC'd & the fit was awesome...I had to keep reminding myself it was wood. As the fit is so precise cyano was just perfect....assemble the components, check, & wick in some cyano. My own efforts tend not to be so accurate ( huge understatement!!!) so a little gap filling is very useful in an adhesive!!!!

I've always found X-Acto razor saws to be OK....they do go blunt & need replacing though...especially if you cut tough stuff with them or abuse them...the teeth are very fine...be careful how you store them too...although not a knife they will cut you if you reach into a drawer a bit carelessly (no... don't ask me how I know this...). Great Planes do a nice little mitre box (90 & 45 degrees) in aluminium for about £7 & don't use those cheap knives from the Pound Shop for cutting wood...No3 Scalpel handle & a 10A or 11 blade is what you need....the Pound Shop knives are very sharp though & worth hanging on to for cutting covering film....I know.....I have a set too!!!!

[Rob Barrett]

Many thanks Adrian - this is all very, very useful and helpful to me.

Also big thanks for re-directing irrelevant threads away - I was getting fed up with e-mails advising of new replies only to find them of no relevance at all !

Kindest regards,

Rob 

[flytilbroke]

Rob, when using thin Cyano you must have the joints well made in the exact position required, before adding it, it sets really fast with no working time. Medium cyano pretty much the same but it can be better for slightly rough joints. Slow or gap fill cyano can give a few seconds to position the joint, don't waste time though. The slow, gap filling thick types do not wick into close fitting joints very well. I agree that firewalls and other high stress areas are better with epoxy or pva. Try not to have joints with gaps though, as even using gap fill stuff, the joint is weaker.

[Rob Barrett]

Cheers Flytilbroke - I think we can all now safely say this forum should act as a real beginners guide to gluing.

Thanks everyone,

Rob. 

[Dave Caple]

Rob, I am about to start on the same build but will be a bit behind you- be interesting to hear how you are doing.

Been building small electrics for some time now and I use both CA and PVA (B & Q do a good cheap brand) My usual rule is if you are sure of your location and it cannot move CA it, but if a bit of jiggling and cross checking is needed use PVA.

Happy building

[Rob Barrett]

Hiya Dave and great to hear from someone else in the same boat as me (albeit you're clearly a more seasoned modeller than me - I'm a virgin !!!) 

I've got as far as buying (and making) some tools, I've purchased the balsa etc.. (incidentally SLEC are absolutely fantastic !) and I've got the plan photocopied at my local Prontaprint (so I can cut it about without fear of ruining the original - this has allowed me to turn the plan upside down and iron the lines onto the balsa !).

I've also sourced a canopy from the RCM&E plans service (plus a second, albeit a clear one, from a top guy I discovered on e-bay !).

Just started cutting the balsa and have already got a few pieces of the jigsaw ready to fine finish.

Still more balsa to cut but this isn't all as easy as Mr Hawes makes it sound ! Even a simple plan like this poses a few 'beginners problems' for a novice like me !  

My big problem is simply one of time - I'm currently finishing my training with a view to my BMFA A test very soon and along with a young family (of which my 10 year old is also learning to fly with me !) theres just not enough hours in the day !

I can fully understand why so many people go for ARTF's - todays lifestyle makes these a better option particularly if you want to actually spend the max. amount of time flying !

Maybe I'll feel differently when my first model is finished - assuming it flies of course ?

By the way I haven't actually sourced the power train etc.. yet !

All the best,

Rob

PS Perhaps we can swap / show some build photos, on this site ? 

[Dave Caple]

Hi Rob,

Its good to hear someone being enthusiastic about building, so far I have the wood, canopy and SF fan unit and motor. At the moment I am bogged down doing the bathroom ( I hate tiling!!) so will be a couple of weeks behind you but once the punishment is out of the way I will be setting to in earnest.

To save cluttering up this forum with chit chat why dont you email me direct, I am at /forum/smilies/big_smile_smiley.gif[/img][email protected]][email protected].

Best of luck and we will see how we get on.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Rob....lots of help available on this forum....keep posting if/when you need help!!!!

Remember there are no silly questions (but some answers can be a bit dodgy )!!!!

[Adrian Smith]

Hi Rob, I have used ALIPHATIC glue for a few years and it has  never let me down. it has a fast grab, use it like a pva white glue but most of all it sands well. if you use white pva on planking, it has a tendancy to drag out of the joints, being slightly rubbery, with aliphatic glue, it dries hard BUT not to hard that you sand away the balsa around the joint leaving the glue line proud. regards adrian s.

[Andy Green]

I've just got some 'Gorilla Glue' from ebay. I'll let you know how I get on with it.

Andy

[Tim Mackey]

Andy, just one word of warning about Gorilla glue. It really does expand quite considerably, especially if moistened, so use very very little, The expansion is of course a big advantage in some situs.