Electricians

[Gary Murphy 1]

Just wondered if anyone can answer and advise on this. I was telling a work mate that I will have to get my home rewired because the wiring in some outlets and light switches is short at the connectors making it had if not impossible to change them.I have been dreadibg this do to the walls being chased out for rewire.My work mate told me this is not necessary,he had the same issue on one out let and called a electrician to recify.This was done by joining/splicing (I do not know) more wire. I was surprised by this,does this sound correct and is is ok if done by a qualified elec? this would really be a home run for me if it is.would like to know befor I call for a quote.i want to get old fuse box replaced at the same time.

[Stevo]

I must say I've never heard of this.. I dont think on any electrical inspection I've seen them taking off the outlets and inspecting the tail length. I'm taking a guess that splicing in tails may involve soldering and heatshrink, but as I say it's a guess.

Take a worst case... two 2.5mm T&E into one socket plus maybe a spur off that... that's 9 splices...

Would be glad to hear someone's input who is up with the IEEE regs...

[Martin Whybrow]

Soldering is not used on domestic electrical work, it will be crimped or a tool-less connector will be used; screw terminal joiners (choc-block) are permitted if it's within the confines of a box so it can be checked for tightness.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Building Regulation Part P was brought out recently in an attempt to limit unqualified persons carrying out electrical work in homes. All works carried out should conform with BS 7671 the IEE regulations and this has been the case for many years. Proper installation practise should also be observed, and all circuits should be tested with the appropriate instruments most of which are not in the possession of the 'do-it-yourself ' bodger. Associated test certificates should also be presented. If an electrician carries out any works in an existing consumer unit then he / she should test all the circuits regardless of whether he has altered or worked on them. New circuit cables may have new European coloured insulation, and if so the consumer units associated with the new circuits should be labelled to indicate the mixture of old and new cable colours if appropriate.

I worked as an electrical design engineer for over 40 years but have to accept that at no time was I really qualified and trained to be an electrician. My house was wired by a GPO engineer and somewhat bodged with sockets and light switches with final connections that are too short as described by Gary. There are other issues that need to be resolved such as inadequate earthing, floating joint boxes under the first floor, all typical of the 'do-it-yourselfer'.

[Codename-John]

Sorry Mike but what you said about alterations and additions is wrong, the whole installation doesn't need to be tested, for alterations a minor works certificate just covering the work done is sufficient, for additions to an existing consumer unit an installation certificate just covering the circuit added is fine.
As Martin says through crimps are fine for extending cables but if there are existing conduits from the switch to the ceiling space / loft sometimes you can tie New cables to the existing cables and use them to pull up the conduit, you may even be able to pull down a bit of slack to re-terminate the existing cable!

The new consumer unit is classed as a part p reportable job though so would need an installer registered with one of the schemes

[Mike Etheridge 1]

I can't and would not argue with you John as I was never really involved with part P. However if I suspected an installation was bodged I would always specify that the whole installation be tested by the appointed contractor in local authority homes.. We used to organise the 5 yearly test and inspection contracts annually on selected local authority homes and have put right immediately any serious failures. Rewiring contracts were organised as follow ups to the testing contracts and properties included were those typically with rubber sheathed or insulated cables and inadequate power points apart from test failures. Unauthorised tenant installations often led to re-wiring. Virtually every flat had conduit installations but not houses.

[Stuart C]

If you cannot pull down more cable, then consider moving the switch box up an inch - its easier than chasing all the way to the ceiling. If you fit one of those oversize facias, then there is no need to even make good the larger hole!

[Hogster]

Posted by Stuart Coyle on 23/08/2014 00:37:49:

If you cannot pull down more cable, then consider moving the switch box up an inch - its easier than chasing all the way to the ceiling. If you fit one of those oversize facias, then there is no need to even make good the larger hole!

I had my old fuse box replaced last year and this is what my electrician did.

[Jamie sawyer]

I'm pretty sure Olly on here is a spark but I may have picked up his posts wrong in the past. Worth messaging him Gary. Block connectors in a wall cavity is a fire risk and illigal. Wires in a brick wall by law should be ducted before plastering over. If the wire is pullable it would be very easy to tie a new cable on at the switch and use the old wire as a draw wire to pull it up. Resulting in minimal damage in decoration. I'm a plumbing & heating engineer and have seen sparks deal with it many times.

Hope it all works out for you. Soldering and splicing the wires is a NO NO. I'd chase a guy out of my house if I caught him doing that lol

[Attilio Rausse]

Lengthen each wire using a crimp tool and suitable crimps, make sure new wire is same thickness as old wire. If you are short of space in the metal back box carefully replace with a deeper back box.

Incidentally connectors are allowed within the metal box as is splicing and soldering, not allowed in an inaccessible place.

You can also use these

http://www.screwfix.com/p/2-way-push-wire-connector-773-series-pack-of-100/77102

Crimp tool

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9-RATCHET-CRIMPER-PLIER-CRIMPING-TOOL-CABLE-WIRE-ELECTRICAL-TERMINALS-1005-/221440923044?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item338ee855a4

[Codename-John]

Jamie the electrical regs bs7671 is not law, it is there for not "illegal" to do anything, you can however use it in court to prove you are not liable for any incident that may arise from an unsafe installation by showing you followed its guidance.
I'm a JIB approved electrician, 17th edition regs, was a registered part p competant installer while self employed and I now work for Plus Dane housing. As I said earlier Through crimps, done properly within the confines of the switch box are perfectly acceptable for extending cables and can be done easily by the op if he so wishes without needing to notify anybody. The new consumer unit the op wants however, is classed as a major job and has to be done by a registered competant installer and reported to the local building control

[flight1]

You can extend the cables in the back boxes no problem and use the push fit fittings (see previous post link) which are safe and regarded as a permanent joint, all other joints (not permanent)need to be accessible as per the regs.

It is not a tidy or ideal/best pratice way but it can save a lot of money and still get something safe. If you can pull a little bit of slack through that would be ideal.

[GONZO]

I've got to ask this, why are soldered joints unacceptable but mechanical joints are OK. If the mains (solid conductor) cable conductors are soundly connected by multiple twisting and then soldered this would make a more suitable electrical connection than just relying on screw pressure in a connection block. Its my understanding that, over time, copper will 'flow' under pressure from the screw resulting in a HR joint.

Just for inf, I bought a new house in July 2007 and there is v/little to no slack in any of the sockets. Whilst having remedial work done by the builder in the kitchen I notice a connector block, hidden behind a kitchen cabinet and burried in the plasterboard, joining the ring main. Before I could get anyone in authority to get the workers to stop everything had been reassembled. So, I have a potential fire! I discovered a switched fused spur wired off of another spur instead of being incorporated in the ring cct. The mains wires for my kitchen cabinet display lights just come out of the plaster without an intermediate connection box. I could go on and on. Oh, and the electrician who wired up the house lives next door. Dont get me started on the state of the plumbing, gas pipe work and the general build quilty. This house cost me £353,000 in total! Anyone want to take on the builders and get them to put things right? Oh, and dont think this is a one off.

I get somewhat feed up with the constant statements that you must not touch this and must not do that but must get a certified person to do even the simplest of tasks. A piece of paper does not mean some one will do a good/proper job. I trust my own work more than any so called tradesman.

[Codename-John]

Gonzo as part of part p if you are unhappy with any of the work you can take it up with building control, they will make their scheme provider give the installer the chance to put right their work or get someone else to put it right and charge the original Installer. You should have a certificate to say that work complies with building regulations, that should state the scheme provider and installer on

[GONZO]

Certainly have got a certificate signed by my next door neighbour on behalf of his company. I believe I would have two chances of success, a dogs chance and no ............... chance. Past experience of dealing with controling authorities, from my first house in the early 70's and onwards, is a waste of time. They don't want to upset the developer just for one customer.

I've had my rant. What about the technical (not regulatory) reason for the dislike of soldered joints?

Edited By GONZO on 23/08/2014 14:00:01

[Martin Whybrow]

Posted by GONZO on 23/08/2014 12:58:05:

I've got to ask this, why are soldered joints unacceptable but mechanical joints are OK. If the mains (solid conductor) cable conductors are soundly connected by multiple twisting and then soldered this would make a more suitable electrical connection than just relying on screw pressure in a connection block. Its my understanding that, over time, copper will 'flow' under pressure from the screw resulting in a HR joint.

Crimped joints are actually better than soldered joints; a correctly crimped joint is stronger than the wire, that cannot be said for a soldered joint. Aircraft, military equipment (and cars) do not use soldered joints in cables, all connectors and joints must be crimped.

Jamie, it is not a requirement to duct wiring in walls before plastering, if the wires are in what is defined as a safe zone, they do not need to be in ducts and can be directly buried.

[sean smith 1]

Posted by Codename-John on 23/08/2014 10:04:30:
Jamie the electrical regs bs7671 is not law, it is there for not "illegal" to do anything, you can however use it in court to prove you are not liable for any incident that may arise from an unsafe installation by showing you followed its guidance.
I'm a JIB approved electrician, 17th edition regs, was a registered part p competant installer while self employed and I now work for Plus Dane housing. As I said earlier Through crimps, done properly within the confines of the switch box are perfectly acceptable for extending cables and can be done easily by the op if he so wishes without needing to notify anybody. The new consumer unit the op wants however, is classed as a major job and has to be done by a registered competant installer and reported to the local building control

As John says, crimping is the simplest/ safest way of adding some extra wire where you need it. Never solder any house hold wiring! (another 17th edition spark)

[GONZO]

"Aircraft, military equipment (and cars) do not use soldered joints in cables, all connectors and joints must be crimped."

Thats because of the environment, high vibration, requiring the use of multi strand cored cable. If you solder these sort of cables you cause a failure point just after the solder stops.Vibration causes the strands to flex just after the solder flow into the cable strands. House mains cable is single strand/core and does not suffer the same degree of vibration. A properly made mechanical joint that is then soldered must be better than a 'choc block' joint. As to tensile strength, are we not after a joint that is strong enough but also durable and long lasting. This is not a quality a 'choc block' could claim, due to 'flow' of the copper, but is considered acceptable.

I suspect the reason for the dislike of soldered joints is one of standardisation of work practices, its easier to make a good crimped/'choc block' joint than a soldered one.

[Attilio Rausse]

Sorry for being pedantic but solder joints done properly are perfectly acceptable, There are some circumstances where imo a soldered joint is better than a crimped joint, example might be when joining large cables that will be inaccessible ie 25mm.

I am not recommending this but it is wrong to say that this is unacceptable. Also cables do not require sheathing in walls (must be in a safe zone).

[Gary Murphy 1]

Thanks for all the input chaps,I have a electrician coming down to look and quote next week.The fuse box is in the cellar so from my point that's easy,nothing there to mar. I really can do with out walls chased and carpets up etc,so seeing that extending wires is ok within the boxes might get me out off trouble if the cables can not be pulled up a little. BUT can I just clear up. block connectors are not allowed? If block connectors are allowed should I specify crimp method over blocks?

[Attilio Rausse]

Block connectors are allowed within the metal box, personally I would use crimps.

[Codename-John]

Crimps are a permanent joint which can be buried etc,connector blocks are not permanent and have to be accessible.
Inside the switch box as long as it's deep enough you can use either, I just prefers crimps.
As for why not solder, time is money and using perfectly suitable crimps I could probably go in do the job and be back out by the time the soldering iron had warmed up

[ROY DAVIES 1]

Just remember crimping tools are calibrated to ensure the correct force is applied to the cable and the crimper jaws have to be the correct ones for the gauge of cable being worked on. I have soldered 200 amp cables into terminals because that is the way they were made up.

Worth noting is the tendency of the copper conductor connections to loose up over the years due in part to (in my estimation) expansion and contraction due to low level heating during current flow and med frequency, 50 cps vibration in the cables. I have had to remove my switches and sockets a few times over the years through mods and decoration and nearly always found the screws backed off a tiny amount which of course can cause heating up of the termination point.

[Stevo]

Was it me that mentioned 'soldering'

I've rewired two houses, but I'm not a qualified electrician, my main qualification is in electronics. However, when i did so, I sought advice as to what to do (16th edition at the time) and got it inspected and sealed up after I completed, so I believe that covered all bases. Should I have made a wiring error, that could have been nasty as my ex-wife got the house as part of the divorce settlement.

Read between the lines