Just (considering) getting started

[Peter A]

Hi, I’m just about to get started but haven’t actually bought anything yet. I’ve contacted a local club and am currently decided on the Multiplex Twinstar (as directed to by the club website). A couple of people in a shop have seemed certain that I should be starting with IC (which I hadn’t really wanted to do), and also something with an undercarriage. I’m finding the options and differing opinions a little overwhelming...almost to the point that I’m having second thoughts so if anyone can help me make up my mind I’d be grateful as I really want to go ahead and get started. My current shopping list looks like... 

• Twinstar II ‘Radio Ready’ which has the servo + Speed controller installed.
• Spektrum DX7 (probably with the S75 servos, although I don’t need at the moment). I’ve been persuaded I’m better opting for this rather than the 6i. Is there a charger I can get?
• Hyperion EOS606i charger (AC/DC), the person at the club was using 3700 lipo batteries – from what I’ve seen these are from £40-£60, should I be wary going too cheap? Finidng this a bit confusing with all the connectors etc, I’d also like to think I could carry this forward to a potentially smaller model?

Budget: After a lower initial estimate, probably aiming for £600, but that’s including club fees + ins. So nearer £500 for the above . In terms of what I’d like to fly eventually, I like the smaller jet type planes – but powered by a propeller at the back which you can build yourself, although I’m getting ahead of myself at this point and would expect to ‘step up’ through appropriate models . I don’t know if this is what you would call a parkflyer, if that term is reserved for pure toys. I’ve been looking around for just over a month and want to make by mind up either way soon, I’m thinking of buying the DX7 over the weekend to take advantage of the receiver offer (will probably get the AR7000along with  2*6200). Many thanks for any advice.Peter

Ps I’ve ready other posts about introducing yourself and answering basic questions etc., so apologies if I’ve missed anything of relevance.

[birdy]

Hi Peter, I'me not much to go on as I've only just started too, but timbo will be anlong any moment now to help you out. If I were you I would go for something with an undercarrage, as it will help in the learning to take off and land stage and something with smaller lipos, as if you damage or overdischarge it, it will be an expensive mistake. For good cheap lipos I would recomend herewww.giantcod .co.ukas some guys at the club have them and say they are good. As for the spectrum charger, I think weston uk make some. Hope you find this useful, good luck, birdy

[Bruce Richards]

Peter,

Don't get too hung up on what to get, just get something and get started. If the club you intend to join has made a recommendation I would suggest you follow it as they will have their reasons for a specific selection based on where you will be flying. If you get hooked on this hobby you will soon be buying all sorts of different models so don't worry about what you start with. I think it is a good idea to buy the best radio you can afford to avoid more expense later. The DX7 is very highly regarded by many. I have never used one so I can't say from experience.

 Buy something and go fly you will love it.

[Tim Mackey]

Timbo is off to bed actually, after a hard and enjoyable days flying at the 3D RC fly-in at the kettle field

Will be back tomorrow... good night

[winchweight]

Get whatever tickles your fancy really. Ideally a high wing trainer type configuration at this early stage, as these tend to be more stable and forgiving. It is worthwhile having an u/c for these early days though, as handlaunching is a knack and can be quite hairy, especially as some fliers throw like girls (indeed some are girls ). If you do go down the leccy route, budget in a good quality set of lipos (at least 2) and a good quality lipo charger with a balance facility. If you are doing leccy it might be worth considering a Wattmeter for the near future (Timbo will explain, no doubt).

Leccy or i/c? Well I have loads of i/c and love it. But there's no getting away from the draw of no mess and quick turnarounds available from leccy. It's up to you, there will always be old sages and naysayers, but fly what you want and just enjoy it!

[Tim Mackey]

Big Yawning Icon inserted here ...this is near enough... "sleepy". Did you hear the one about the seven dwarfs all in bed feeling sleepy....oops forgot this is a child friendly board !

Morning all.... Can't imagine why everyone around here thinks I like leccy flight but they do .

Hi and welcome aboard Peter A.

I take it you have firstly read some of the other relevant threads for beginners, such as this?

Ask two different modellers what to start off with, and how to plan a progression into future models etc, and you will of course get two different answers - likewise two different model shops, after all, these same people serve you in the shops... not the shop . I am not surprised that the shop tried to sway you toward IC, and suspect this may be because many shops / staff simply do not have enough knowledge to advise customers correctly on the black art, or indeed it may be because they are right in some ways also!
Despite my affinity to electrikery, there are some reasons why IC may be a better choice for some beginners.

1. It is more understood by most modellers and shop-staff, so help is probably closer to hand.
2. Plenty of good new /second hand trainer models about
3. Generally speaking IC trainers will fly in more variable weather conditions and less than perfect "fields"
4. DITTO IC models will fly for longer and be re-fuelled quicker than electric ones
5. Usually stronger and more crash resistant than so called "trainer" leccy jobs - yes I know EPP bounces

IC boys and girls feel free to add your .02P worth in slot number 6 onwards.

Lets do the easy ones now. MPX twinstar ? I didnt like the only one I ever flew / worked on with a friend in the same situ as you, underpowered in stock form, some poor design aspects, not impressed - yes I know am probably alone in that opinion, and that's just what it is...an opinion.

A) The DX7 is great, ( better than the 6i ) - I have used mine for over 2 years, exclusively, on ALL my models, including IC, never a single issue. Period. Good choice, if you can get the set without the included servos for less money, all the better - the servos are very good, but full size and bulky...they may not suit your model.

B) You will need a charger for all your other gear soon, so choose the right one and it will charge everything you own, including the car battery when the missus leaves the lights on all night - it will charge your radio gear too - just be ready with the soldering iron, various plugs and doo dahs, and make up universal charging leads to suit your inexpensive and versatile charger. The one you mention is fine - just a bit limited at only 50 Watts though.

C) Can't / wont discuss LiPo capacity and types etc here.... need around 3000 words or more - try part 1 and 2 of "electrickery" - shameless plug for the magazine / forum / me

So having now confused you even more....I am off for coffee and no sticky buns as I am still on a diet

I will be back with part 2 of this epic rambling after me brekky!

[Peter A]

Thanks for all the comments. I still feel I need to go with the electric, I appreciate there may be other advantages with ic, but I think I'd find it too much to understand on top of everything else. Plus I really like the idea of being able to get set up quickly.

To be fair I hadn't looked at that many other trainers, but have since come across the Ultrafly Tutor (anybody?), the other thing I've heard of to start with is flying wing type planes? With the Twinstar being foam I though that may have been a slightly better option as well.

Timbo  -  Yes I’ve read through the beginner posts, but got to the point where I needed to ask something for myself. I’ve read the articles you refer to so have an idea of the basis, I may consider pairing two up packs as you mention to allow me so buy something smaller which I could use in a smaller models in the future. 

I think I read you receive a free simulator if you subscribe, I don’t know if that’s still available but would you know which that is? Simulator will push be over my (current) budget, so still thinking on that one, but was looking at Phoenix if I do buy one. 

Is adapting the charger for the transmitter easy, as I was going to buy a standard mains adaptor when I get the radio (which I can get without servos so may do that I thought those were smaller ones which may be of use).  

Birdy – As you mention that you’ve just started, may I ask how you found your first flights. I did have a quick go one somebody else’s set up on a buddy system but it was quite high up & far away which I struggled with.  I would like to go with something with smaller lipos as you mention so may think on that one. 

Thanks for all the advice, spending the money is one thing, but then being reliant on other people to get set up & learning is what I struggle with (amongst other things).

Peter

[Former Member]

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[Tim Mackey]

OK I am back...boy that was big breakfast

Fine so you want to go leccy. There are one or two exceptions to the rule with flying wing type thigies, and one model I often recommend, is not a wing as such, but is very very resilient - and trust me you WILL crash whilst learning. Here it is. All complete with motor prop ESC etc etc for £50!

The foam on the twinstar I always found a bit too easy to break, and also being twin, introduces another PPOF - please KISS for your early models - they dont have to look sexy when they are for teaching you to fly, but they DO need to be tough. This V trainer is EPP and VERY resilient and rubbery...it literally bends and bounces.

When you have mastered the basics of orientation ( which a sim is very good for, and it is one of the hardest parts to grasp in this hobby ) THEN you can move onto the next model with an undercarriage - but IMO at the very early stages it is simply another item to break and interrupt your training for the day. The Tutor from CML that you mention looks good - not seen / flown one m'self, but the write up is OK. Remember...you will need several quite expensive  3s Lipos to keep flying through a good instructor session. If you get the V trainer first, and select a lightweight 2500 m/ahr 3s pack for it with a slightly smaller prop, you could then use this later in the tutor if you stick to the smaller pitch prop they suggest !

You wont need to "modify" the multi charger to use it o your radio as such...just a question of fitting the right plug, wired in the correct polarity for the radio charge socket

( spekky and JR are opposite to the norm )

Dead easy peasy

[Rick Tee]

My 2ps worth, been looking at electric over the last year or so, though i trained as an aircraft electrician im finding it complicated and confusing, only just begining to see through the murky haze. It's also a lot more expensive to get started in then IC. Typical IC trainer, engine, radio, starter etc cost around £300.

 Which ever way you go first aricraft needs to be a trainer type design as big as you can afford. Small aircraft are much harder to fly, things happen quicker and at a lower altitude there's less room for recovery. An ARTF electric glider maybe a good place to start with leccy, many come with the motor pre installed and require much cheaper NiMh batteries. You can afford to make mistakes charging without blowing them up, unlike Lipos which (at least at my site) tend to go pop regularly and at £60 + a go not exactly cheap. Though electric stuff is coming down in price, setup and on going costs are still a good bit higher than IC and turnaround is much longer unless you have spare battery packs.. That said it does have great appeal, clean and convenient.

[Tim Mackey]

 " You can afford to make mistakes charging without blowing them up, unlike Lipos which (at least at my site) tend to go pop regularly and at £60 + a go not exactly cheap."

I suggest that the operators need to look carefully at their procedures then. I have NEVER seen a LiPo "go pop" and have been using them exclusively for around 5 years now, owning currently somewhere around probably 60 or so various packs.

Incidentally, to regular leccy fliers, the average 2000 mahr 3s LiPo pack ( probably the most common one  in use today ) is now around £25, so perhaps they should also be reviewing their suppliers.

[Rick Tee]

Yeah i'm sure your right, misscalaculations on prop, motor, or battery pack i guess are the main causes and the occsional duff pack. Not sure about pack sizes will check next time im up the field, which doesn't look like anytime soon with the weather forcast. Fairly sure even the little foamy jets are using bigger packs then 2000mahr as one guy paid £70 a pack for the foamy twister jet (upgraded to brushless) though that would be nearly 12months ago and as i said prices seem to be coming down all the time for leccy stuff. (When i said pop i did not mean literaly explode, i think the safety features prevent explosion unless subjected to extreme abuse, they tend to be rather bigger after the flight then they were before and U/S.)

As already mentiioned not got my head around the electric stuff, the numbers quoted with brushless motors make no sense to me at all yet. If i have this right you need 80w per 1lb for say a trainer type aricraft. So converting a standard 40 size trainer to electric weighing approx 5lb gives 400w, if the pack is 11.1v thats 36A, 2000mahr erm been a while but i think this would give you around 3mins airtime. Please correct me if i have made any errors, trying to get my head around this stuff.

Electric flight has come a very long way, i remember the days of large heavy accumultors, very light builds and very short flights. Last weekend i watched a 40size scale chipmunk converted to electric fly for 10mins and perform aerobatics. Next time i see him i will ask what battery pack he is using.

[Tim Mackey]

Hi Rick...your sort of right - but there are other factors involved, such as prop uinloading in the air etc. The 80Watts per pound is for W.O.T and most flights ( except EDFS which use much more than that anyway - nerare 200 wplb ) are at half throttle or even less once airborne and flying "normally". A little EXcel s/sheet I did some time back, has proved to me that increasing the WOT flight time estimates by around 30 - 40 % is nearer the mark...so on your example that wold be average durations of around 5 minutes. The other thing is that electric flight needs very lightweight models - easily achieved wioth purpose built versions 'cos the airframe does not have to stand the vibration anbd stress etc of IC engines. A 5lb model is actually quite heavy for leccy flight, and if it IS 5lb AUW then one would probably use a higher capacity battery ( many peeps simply parallel up two packs with a suitable harness - that way the packs can be split up for other models.) Once I get up to the 40A or more mark, I tend to then use a 4s battery, which will mean higher volts and lower Amps to achieve the same watts... with a smaller prop to keep the current down..Of course with faster models and larger EDFs etc, then we are using 6 /7 / 8 or more cells.

One large EDF I am doing at the moment is spinning an impellor at around 32000 RPm, producing an input wattage of almost 1.1 K/w at 22V...with a current draw of just 44A in the air.

The 2 x 3s @ 3300mahr batteries even in this rig cost me just 34 quid each.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Rick Tee]

Thanx for the info Timbo, feel like i'm making some progess with it at last. Ordered my first leccy model Seagull 2200 plus ESC and 9.6v 3300mahr NiMh from ebay just £14. Should be nice for those balmy summer days at the power field.

(Hmm probably should have put this in a  new thread, kinda hyjaking here, on the other hand is relevant to OP i guess.) 

[Tim Mackey]

I often suggest this to those peeps who simply insist on starting with electric

heres a link

[Rick Tee]

But but it's so ugly.

[Tim Mackey]

Its only as ugly as ANY first timers model after the first few flights! One thing is certain with beginners models they WILL crash, and then they all look a mess - right? This thing is designed to do a job, a bit like landrover - its a tool, not a thing of skin deep beauty only. The V trainer will fly properly, it will "arrive" after flight and simply bounce - to fly once more and more and more, next to a simulator this thing is pretty much unbreakable and is EXACTLY the sort of model that people who want to learn, and not spend weeks repairing instead of FLYING should have.

Look, I dont care what people want to fly , and I have NO CONNECTION with this company at all - if people want to go and spend a weeks wages or more on a pretty , and realistic scale model, then try to learn to fly it on their own....thats fine, just make sure you let me know where they are going to be, and I will ensure I am a long way away. I only recommend things / models / accessories whatever that I think are suitable for the particular job in hand, these recommendations are based on nothing more than 30 years flying and building and repairing all sorts of R/C model aeroplanes. Too many people entering this hobby simply dont have realistic impressions of exactly what is involved, and they must learn to walk before they run. Time enough after the first 6 months training, crashing, and more training before their dream of scale warbird enters their hangar.

[Peter A]

Thanks for the suggestions and welcome.

 Timbo - I passed the V Trainer past the instructor at the club and have placed my order today. I understand what people mean about the look, but I actually really like the concept of designing purely for training.

 My DX7 arrived today (not that I can do much with it yet), however regarding charging, once I have a connector with negative in the middle is it just a case of following the instructions for the charger as usual? The DX7 manual states that it is designed to be charged at 110mA but the Charger Mannual says it charges in 100mA steps is this a problem?

[Tim Mackey]

Good man ! I hope you enjoy it. The charger will be fine... it may just take a little longer at 100 m/a. Of course, you could crank up the charge current to around .5C or so, assuming your charger is a decent peak detect version.

You could start playing with the DX7 to get familiar with it, and of course bind the receiver, and enter the model into memory etc. Did you get the aR7000 OR 6000 Rcvr ?