RICHARD WILLS

I'd like to thank everyone for their contribution . Several aircraft were brought to our attention which we had not seriously considered . The Hornet is one , and the IL2 is another , The Whirlwind had been mentioned before so did not surprise me . The Tempest and Sea Fury have also come up in the past and based on this thread we will develop a 63" version of both which can be IC or electrically powered . The twin option is less certain . We have already made some prototype Ju88s of the size we propose . One is being built on this very forum . I propose to do a limited production batch of them in the the next two months just to see what sort of reaction we get If the feedback is good , then a second "quick build"" twin could be on the cards. The Hornet is the simplest although the Whirlwind is well within the parameters that we have in mind. As builder/flyers we have very much become the minority in our hobby , This in itself limits our choice since kit manufacturers cannot produce kits without a prospect of a least recouping design costs . The ultimate solution is to wake up some of the ARTF flyers to the advantages of building from a kit . Many think there is a vast leap to be made but in some ways they are wrong . Fitting radio , linkages , engines ,fuel tanks ,and retracts all stack up to a fair proportion of the build . When you look at some of the ARTF threads they go on for 100s of pages sometimes, while the flyers modify the original and sometimes strip them or repaint them , or modify them way beyond the original kit. The smaller manufacturer does have the ability to be flexible and consequently work very closely with the end user , you . Together we do have the potential to get much more from our hobby , What would be nice (and exciting ) would be to help people expand their building and flying horizons. Airfix did this for all of us . They started us of with "series 1" kits that were just a few parts in a plastic bag with a full colour cardboard header . After perhaps a series 2 or 3, we started to drool over a Lancaster bomber, the Tirpitz or the Victory . Given a small increase in following , there is no reason why we cant produce some really impressive kits like Lancasters and B17s all designed to sell at very reasonable costs but practical enough to be operated by somebody who had just built our Spitfire and who drives a family hatchback. Maybe I'm dreaming , but I think that with the laser cutters and electric technology in particular we are at point where amazing models have never been more achieveable. What puts people off more complicated models is size , cost and the fact that they will not be able to complete the model without specialist knowledge (like where do get retracts etc. A 100" bomber can be broken down into 60" parts quite simply so that it will go in any car , Retracts would be made for the prototype so why not make them available to all ? So come on chaps , lets start thinking about pushing the boundaries , just a bit . Once again , thanks for your thoughts , Richard

I totally agree Ian , on all counts. Let me expand , The Spitfire kit was an epic to produce, because of the subject , Many had been done before so we knew expectations would be high , Hence the manual etc is very polished . The twin sales , even if we went for a mossie would be much lower , So would people be happier accepting a simpler foam veneered kit if it meant that we could offer more than one design? As you all know , you cant have youre cake and eat it ! The twins should be seen as a simpler fast build kit a lot like the old Aerotech range as opposed to the Single engined kit which will be really polished and laser cut as per the Spitfire. By simplifying the twins we can offer them at say £180 and if not too bogged down on the manual and instructions , move relatively quickly through a few designs. The other advantage of the foam veener kits is that once youve made one , you dont need so much guidance to make another type . But I will be guided by you . The danger is that we get critisized for producing a "semi scale " kit or going backward from our current status. So chaps lets hear it . A range of simple twins or one laser cut state of the art design that cost more and takes longer to build but incorporates all of the whistles and bells.

As a rough guide at the size we are proposing , the Seafury cowl looks about 4" radius . Which would encompass a 150 laser Vtwin I think ? Jon ? and very likey the same could be said for the Saito . The deep chinned Tempest V gives endless options for a single cylinder as from the propshaft to the bottom of the chin is nearly 6" . Interesting to see the Hornet inching ahead of the Whirlwind . Given the history of the Whirlwind . Either one can be produced so I'm ok with both . I guess Its important to everyone that the first type hits reasonable sales figures for all concerned , Simply put : If the first released twin sells , we would be encouraged to produce more types , It is in your interest to spread the word because I am keen to produce a series like Aerotech did many years ago at a reasonable price. The big difference will be that all of these kits will be nice to fly and will have the massive advantage of a reliable and cheap electric propulsion option . The down side to this plan is that when Aerotech were in business the builder numbers were way higher , We were around too and I would say we sold about four times as many planes per year , Consequently the ball is in your court , If you sit quietly in your shed waiting for the dream kit to appear you will quite likely be disappointed . But if you have a go at one of the first twins you are massively improving the odds. Imagine the impact at your club , You turn up with say the Ju88 . Its big , its impressive but easy to fly and operate . Other members are fascinated as it seems such a big leap from the norm . They then either buy one , or chase us for something similar . The main thing is to demonstrate that the concept is practical and rewarding . If you look at the Ju 88 being built and the High Wycombe winter build ,you can see that both the Yak and Ju88 can be built very quickly ( I know they have taken their Yaks to another level detail wise but for most , that isnt needed) . I have pretty much stopped flying electric foamies as hacks pruely because they dont fly well in a breeze compared with a hard skinned model . Consequently I fly wooden kits both in single and twin form with cheap batteries and motors in exactly the same way as my 52 fourstroke models. Alert your friends to the proposed concept as we all need the building market to re start ,

Both single and twin will have proper flaps, even the challenging Whirlwind if chosen , Hornet seems popular though too.

Well , I think we can have a semi -final summary . Firstly it is worth noting that we have had over 7000 viewings in a very short time. However the number of people actually voicing an opinion is tiny relative to a production run of say 100 Kits . If you find that you are the only person who has chosen a particular aircraft , you will have to come to terms with the fact that if you want one , you'll have to do it from scratch . I also know which aircraft have come up in conversation with existing Warbirds customers, although I have not mentioned them as I did not want to lead the viewers. Our Spitfire is the best seller so that would make me lean toward a British design . This is not a personal view as I have repeatedly mentioned Italian jobs (which I like) to my existing customers and have universally been met with an awkward silence (sorry Matt ,know how you feel ) I do like the idea of a core model that can offer a few versions as we can see how specific people are with their "wants". At the moment I am thinking 63" Tempest V with Tempest II and SeaFury as spin offs , for both Electric and IC . The Twin seems to be Whirlwind or Hornet . If the people sitting on their hands chip in , this choice could be derailed. Assuming its not , how do you all feel about them ?

My Mum said i was special too . I think she was right because I cant see it either , help us out Simon .

It must be me being a bit of a skinflnt / tightwad etc . But when the big manufacturers started producing big and expensive scale ARTFs (over £300 upward) I did wonder who was actually going to buy one. The problem with our hobby is that one little mechanical or electrical failure can reduce a £1000 to scrap in seconds. At the bottom end , you have HK selling off VK semi scale planes for around £70 , but they are not close enough scale to appeal to us . So in theory there should always be a place for the middle ground which as someone said is the "close to scale " club size practical Warbird between £140 -£180. I have a few Toplfilte kits stashed for "one day " , very nice too . But they've been in my loft for ten years so far at least . I guess thats why I predominantly stuck to the 56" stuff . You can see the end of the build the day you open the box and in most cases , you can see the end all the way through . That is important for most of us . I know Ive been pushing the twin thing as well , but it does give you a lot of bang for buck . Most big single engined fighters get pricey real quick , but the 6ft twin is unusual ,without being overly expensive . The power trains either electric or IC can be £100 per side if you go down my route. For those of us that have built a few Warbirds (not necessarily mine) would enjoy the challenge and seeing the distinctive shapes in the air is very rewarding . On the Single front (and outside of this thread ) we do have a prototype 72" La7 being built . Should be ideal for Jons Lasers or any other similar 20-25cc motor. If anyone wants to follow The High Wycombe club's winter build with say half a dozen of our kits I would be quite happy to help . It is a good way to get those ready to move on from the Artf world into the simpler side of "proper building " . I did the same as Jon two years back and it was really good fun . I'd recommend keeping to the same type if possible though . We do discount the club too as long as they give fair warning . I assure you that building the 88 with no "extra details" takes no longer than building our Yak . We built the Yaks in three evenings in a village hall ! Ready to cover stage ,and add gear . Makesyou think doesnt it?

Tally Ho Brian! ( or whatever that is in Russian) Looks prettty real with the wheels tucked up doesnt it ? Nice job , Ive really enjoyed the whole story . Who makes those kits ? Richard

Its a tricky path to walk isnt it? Some of the points I agree with , Anything that is already available in kit or ARTF form may not be such a good bet , For example , why wouldnt people just buy the well proven Topflite P47 or the previously available B25 (hanger9 ?) . On the other hand the Ju88 has generated little interest . Where are all the Luftwaffe fans?By the way I do have the Bomber version glass too. It is a fickle business, The kit we sell the most of is the Spitfire by a huge margin . Is it because its all built up laser cut and predominantly electric ? Is it because its British? (very few overseas sales despite the tiny box). The people on this thread like building so it may simply be that if you look at say the Fw190 , you could say lots of artfs around , dont bother , but if you want to make one ? Plan packs just seem a bit.... "bitty" . Sometimes more expensive too . I would want the whole solution to arrive on my bench not 90% as Ive always found that its the 10% that requires all the "how do I do that " that spoils the flow of a good build. Our Spitfire build is very smooth which is confirmed by most of our customers. A lot of thought goes into that , Conversely the Hurricane , despite Jons excellent build elsewhere on this forum continues to be ignored. Is that because its IC ? Foam veneer? Too much competition ? TN , and VQ both had similar sized Hurricanes well after ours. Our Hurricane was a real winner but that was ten or more years ago . The fact that the people voting for Tony Nijhuis to produce a near identical model maybe five years back tells us something again . Most people dont really research to find out whats already about . Surprising considering the UK is on of the largest internet shoppers in the world. Most American aircraft have been very well represented because the Chinese see the US market as their number one . We cannot break in to that market because they get their kits and ARTfs so much cheaper than Europe. But we should need to . Europe and the even the UK is big enough for the Kind if number we need to sell. Just have to provide the right kit . Hence this thread .

I also think Brian's Macchi is lovely . Brian has sent the drawings he did over to me so I think if he is willing we could laser cut the parts for some if a handful are interested . This is a different proposition than creating a proper kit . There would be no support from Warbirds but it does get you 80% there . It might be worth having a think about how many would want the Macchi as a set of laser cut parts then see if I can do a small batch . It would be for confident builder only as we would have to see what guidance Brian could give as the laser cutters file may not be much use to a builder. Equally if people want a set of beautiful foam veneered wings for a one of project , we will make them from a simple hand drawn plan . All dreams can be achieved , but the less people you bring with you , the more you will have to do.

I think Ian and Mattty (and Jefff ) are pretty much on the money . If you personally had to put in a bucket load of a work . then do it again to make the manual , Create all of the accessories like spinner make and the moulds , sort out the retracts etc which would you really choose to make it worthwhile? Its hard for people on the other side of the trade counter to realise how tentative the market is now. Take the Mustang , we get zero interest in the p51B . I mean literally one enquiry per year . Why? I flew the one in the pictures on our site for three years and another before it (a malcolm hood from the Len Deighton book cover "Goodbye Mickey Mouse " . Loved them both , faultless aeroplanes. P51H ? Not for me . If I cant sell the historic champion of the P51 range I'm not going to attempt the "Johnny come lately ". Anyway , I do feel the Mustang fans have had more than their fair crack of the whip. We will have some new kits out of this thread chaps , that is not an empty promise . A twin and a single engined fighter . Andy , I can feel you being drawn in my Auntie Vilolets tractor beam . She;s always been my favourite Aunt and she's between husbands you'll be pleased to hear . I must warn you though , the previous four died in strange circumstances , although the coroner said they all died smiling . As ever , be careful what you wish for . ( quote of the late, great, Fairy Godmother )

the flying tank and the Italian job ! I like both of those . The sand and spinach camouflage is a particular favourite of mine . I can never understand why people dont like the Italian fighters and some of the bombers too . I spend a lot of time standing in the middle of a park muttering Macchi , Macchi. Macchi. I havent been arrested yet , people just assume Ive lost my West Highland terrier..

Thats Auntie Violet , I wondered where she'd gone,

What we really want to settle on is a probable single engined aircraft and a twin . I appreciate the latter will attract less sales but as I'm keen to test the water in that department based on the gamble that once a few people try it , they may enthuse others, I'm willing to give it a go . The single absolutely be my bread and butter . Now chaps , please have a good look at the 88 thread , If it isnt what you fancy , then say so . if you would like something different , but in the same ball park , say so . The concept works well and I would expect all new "twinnies" to go down the electric route , Its hassle free and confidence building , Twin 52s or similar makes a lovely racket but of course engine outs and vibration are always going to be there . 90% of our Spitfire sales are electric versions . All of the twins would be available in both versions. Foam veneer or built up doesnt make any difference to us or the price , So it comes down to this . Something with plain flaps (most German stuff) is easy to do foam veneer . Anything with complicated flaps ,best to go laser cut built up wing , The 88 and 110 are very easy to build since they have box fuselage with foam veneer top and bottom decks and a moulded nose , Stick the nacelles onto some big foam veneer wing and youre ready to chuck in the hardware. Hornet is simple too so would be in the above category , Anything with compound curves is going to slow you down , ie He111 , Mossie , C47 . So maybe they would be the second one in the range (if we get some reasonable interest in the first ). Graupner did make a 70" He111 ARTF which I dont think sold that well and is now on offer via Black Horse ?Ripmax . Agin , lets have your thoughts on that . Wrong model ? Too expensive , Why did it not sell ? Looking at the lack of success ARTF twins (apart from the Harmony maybe) it may be that the twin IC route has left each club rather tainted after seeing a B25/Mossie etc pile in after engine failure. Having flown twins with ic motors in for years and not being a spectacular pilot , I can tell you that its all about preparation (without the H) . I simply add fuel filters , run the motors a little rich and check for loose anything before every flight. My Aerotech (new wing) 110 has done at least 100 flights , B25 the same. But , electric is now the way to go for most , and once each club has a chap in it who regularly flies one of our well sorted , practical and impressive twins the word will spread , The Whirlwind is getting some backing and it has come up before from my phone calls with customers over the years , The Tempest has some appeal as it can be done in three variants (inc SeaFury ) so encompasses a few different favourites, Dont be put off by the apparent size , 72" twins dont have large bodies so are easy to store build and chuck in the car .

80 inch Hurricane ,? Nice but then why not Mick Reeve or DB Versions ?

Youve got it David . If you look at all the build forums round the world , you can see the same people posting all the time . The reality is that there are not many of us left . On the bright side , the laser cut Spitfire attracted new people to the building side of the hobby which we had not really seen before. That may be unique to the draw of the Spitfire . Hardly a week goes by without a film or documentary. Andy ,The 88 will show us how feasible a series of twins would be , The price for a proper kit will be £179 . We will also offer all of the parts that people find hard to source , like proper spinners (not vac form) props and motors , plus retracts that are tough and dont require a bank loan, Its a shame more people dont have a go at twins, Its never been better . With the electric motor system from our Spitfire and decent retracts , it really brings some wow factor for reasonable outlay and effort.. It makes a change to fly the heavies too . I'd always been a bit of pretend fighter Jock , I guess we all are , but there is something about those big "destroyers" that the single engined fighters dont have . The 88 uses the same batteries as the Spitfire so its a practical and cheap set up that means I can take both models but with one set of packs . The other advantage of the twin is that you get 5mins on the Spitfire but thanks to the shred effort on the twin , 7 mins is the norm. Same pack . (but two of course).

Yes , and I would have to give it back David . The price of choosing something of exclusive interest to you and few others is apparent if you look at the price of the Sky shark Il2 . Shame really . It would be a great flyer . How much do you want one ? No point in going head to head with skyshark . Richard

There have been some very good points put across . In a nut shell it boils down to this . There are hardly any kit manufacturers still standing , Warbirds does not have much in the way of overheads and consequently is very efficient . So we can hang in there when others cant . However, the work involved in making a new kit is substantial so it is important to know as rule of thumb that there are about 30 people who are willing to seriously consider one. That would hopefully assume that others would buy and keep it going when they found out about it some time later. Quite a few years back , Ron Daniels in Canada made a very pretty 48" span Tempest for electric power and it developed a bit of a cult following . After a few years he realised it was just too mush hassle for the small reward and shut up shop . About ten years later a group of guys badgered him to make some more and he flatly refused . Eventually he said " to make it worthwhile I need firm orders and deposits for 25 " They rallied their pals and the Ron did as asked . They were over the moon , Ron shut the door again. I dont feel comfortable asking people for deposits , But if customers and small manufacturer dont try to see things from both sides , everyone will lose out. To a degree we can come much nearer to what you want than the big companies and with Laser cutting and 3d printing the quality is spot on . But when you ask for something consider this , can I get any of my pals excited too ? If you cant then you are possibly about to put one of your few kit manufacturers out of business , since you may be asking for something that will sell a total of 2 kits . I like the IL2 but how many will we sell ? Tempest ? Well I guess the above story is quite a good sign , 65" laser cut Tempest with MkII and Sea fury of the back of it would cater for quite few. Then there's the Whirlwind for the twin , Not done by TN , Comes up in conversation a fair bit over the years . You know there is a thread for the Ju88 . Its a great plane but at the moment only a handful of people have enquired about it . Does that inspire me to make another twin ? So in many ways the future kits for you proper builders is in your hands , hence the thread . As with all things , be careful what you wish for . I do value your comments so keep them coming. Richard

I think we have to let the thread run for while to let everyone get their wish in. Its not until we get a fair number of people contribute that we can make any kind of conclusion . Clearly if you are the only one that pipes up for a Westland Welkin , its unlikely that we will produce a kit , but if your second choice is one that keeps getting mentioned then that is the one you should back . So every one must chip in as it might be the thing for other people who havent yet spoken . Tony Nijhuis does have a reasonable fleet that we dont really want to compete with , although if a different size is desirable it could be considered . I dont have any hang ups on different nations so Axis or Allies is all good. They are all effectively flying Ferraris , so what's not to get excited about , whatever flag they flew under?

Ah Jon , I hope youre not trying to lead the jury ? The Whirlwind is an unusual subject to be sure , Interesting history and certainly you would be the only one in the club . Have a look at this rather fetching colour scheme (Dieppe raid I assume, hope he made it back ok , not many did) :: http://barracudacals.com/gallery/index.php/Classic-Airframes-1-48-Whirlwind---by-Calum-Gibson---New-South-Wales-Australia/Whirlwind-28 It is quite racey isnt it ? What does everyone else think ? 72" ? Big props short and sturdy U/C . "Its got legs " as they say , even if they are from a Daschund ! Surprisingly graceful in the air and cuts some nice shapes with the high tail . Those big flaps should haul it up short on the landing , Cant imagine Westland coming after us like Lockeed . They are British after all and some of my aunts live in the west country so they could probably have a word. Nobody would mess with Auntie Violet ,

Yes Stephen , retracts can be a pain on our typical British strips . However a lot of the problems can be alleviated . I always put a heavy piano wire coil in the top of the leg because most of the impact force is backward rather than upward . That helps tremendously . Also our all metal units are proper heavy duty alloy and not pot metal . That means that the impact cannot get beyond the lock so at the point of impact the undercarriage effectively becomes a simple fixed system. Dont let me put you off your Gladiator /Hart . Both wonderrful. Regarding the "twin trainer" Dave, I totally agree . However in electric form , most of the twins can be made to fly very benignly . Our prototype Ju88 NightFighter kit being built elsewhere on this forum is exactly that . Because of the simple lines of the 88 it can be prefabricated by us to produce a big model very quickly . You just pop in two 4cell packs and chocks away ! Even the paint job is a doddle , ok its not a Mossie but that is a much more complicated model because it really will involve planking thanks to the curves. Possibly too big a jump for the first twin . Having said that if somebody built something like the 88 first to get the feel of things , all of the equipment (motors props esc etc ) could be moved to the more sophisticated twin afterwards.. Having flown the 88 for a while , i'd have to say it is pretty stress free for such an adventurous looking model . On a low pass with those big three blade props turning it certainly looks menacing . The big twins are very smooth and compared to say the Spitfire , everything happens in slow motion thanks to the bigger mass. There is no worry about the motors conking out and I have fitted the Mr RCsound system which is extra fun though not necessary as the plane make quite a nice drone anyway .

Will , what a great shape IAR80 is . Reminds me of the Hughes racer . Very cool. I think we'd be on our own there so production run of two perhaps! Im glad everybody is chipping in . This is definitely the way to get things done, It seems that we need to look at two different designs here so perhaps if we phrase the question like this : I agree that the slightly larger model has an appeal . From what everyone is saying ,65-70 inch is the zone . Jonathons engines certainly could be accommodated with an optional firewall . So we all need to come up with a subject for say a single engined warbird of that size. The good news is that we have made our own all metal super tough retracts that we can offer along side the kit in order to keep the cost down and the reliability up. Secondly a twin that can be electrically or Ic powered of 70" span needs to be chosen . Having built an flown lots of twins this size in both IC and electric form , I can honestly tell you that they are the business! The electric versions are very easy to get on with and thanks to the big 3 blade props and the noise generated from them , they look and sound surprisingly real .No engine out issues either , Also remember that at 72" they are quite easy to get in the car as the body is quite small and the wing slides down the side of the car with thespinners pointing skyward . Even a Ford Fiesta will accommodate one . Alternatively the sound of a pair of fourstrokes is beautiful and totally addictive so the models would be capable of either version . Cost is not prohibitive . Each motor /esc/battery being about £100 .on the electric version. I dont want to lead you but here are some of the singles we thought would work at 65-70" La7 , Tempest , Sea Fury , Macchi , Yak , Heinkell 100 , Tony . Twins : P38 , Mossie , Whirlwind , 110G, 410 . ,He111, Multi 100" all electric B17 . Like I say , other suggestions welcome , but we do have some prototypes of the above or at least moulds and plans so they have a head start and would reduce lead times. Retracts have always been expensive with some companies and can double the cost so we need to keep that area in house and containable. Richard

I do agree that the big manufacturers tend to stick to mainstream models , but of course they are gambling on large production runs. Most people in the hobby assume that far more models are being sold than the reality (at least in the UK) . If you think about how many warbirds turn up at your club as a percentage of the members , you can soon figure out the numbers are pretty small up and down the country , The good news is that with laser cutting and 3D printing we can afford to embark on a kit that will only sell a few couple of hundred kits total over say two years . The large manufacturers couldnt afford to do that , That is worth considering when you "make a wish" . Are there other people that you know that would want that particular kit? Ive always like the Macchi 202 but I seem to be mostly on my own there ! The twin market seems very untapped . One of our early competitors was Aerotech of the 1990s and although they had a very mixed reputation they did introduce a range of quick build twins that lots of us got very excited about . They didnt involve the epic that was a Brian Taylor build but you could produce a big twin very quickly . Ok , they wanted quite few mods to make them fly sometimes , but the concept was great , I guess our 88 is exactly that but without the bugs. Electric makes things a whole lot easier too . What do we think chaps?

keep it coming chaps ,, i'm all ears (except the bits that arent). Richard

I love what you're doing Brian . The Yak kit was designed for my local club as a hack and meant to be practical rather than perfect scale. However its flying qualities surprised us in both electric and IC form . Our local lads fly them all the time but nobody has considered taking them to anywhere near this level. When you see the speed and agility of the full size Yaks flown at Duxford , you realise what a contender they must have been in 1944. Its a slippery airframe but thanks to the models low wing loading and crafty wing section it has impeccable handling at both ends of the spectrum . Its a very effective alternative to the modern ARTF foam warbird which of coarse are very good and require little time to get in the air , but do not offer the aerodynamic advantage of a stiff model or the durability . Surprisingly my electric powered Yak weighed no more than my FMS 109 which made me wonder about the actual weight of EPO foam . I guess there is a reason why people have been making model planes from balsa for years. I must say that Guy , Jon and yourself all build to very high standard so I feel very honoured to have my humble kit given the High Wycombe make over , Lots of colours to choose from , but having flown about five hundred or more flights on mine , I would advise as much colour as possible because they can do a pretty good dissapearing act ! Great work chaps Richard