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Peter, it was a long time ago and I do not remember that clearly. Being a glider, I probably had a lot of heavy arrivals, trying to hit the spot (often just being a bit of cloth.).

According to Admiral, electric cars weigh 200-300kg more than their IC equivalent. In a way it matters less, than the longer term opportunity to increase charging for EVs. As IC cars disappear, EVs of necessity will become the "cash cows" of the future. As with every aspect of life, we all will have to pay for the changes necessary. There are not enough rich to pay for it all. We will pay either via taxes or charging for services. It does depress me that some are so driven by dogma, that there is an willingness to see reality. I am not thinking of anyone that is part of this discussion.

The question was "how much torque is required". If question which servos are acceptable, then certain 9g are less good than others. Their are metal geared servos of similar size to the 9g envelope. I do reflect that one of my inflight servo failures, was with a costly, high branded servo (on elevator). I lost a tooth or more, luckily got it down. In life there are few 100% guarantees.

In the past, Biggles, Dr Dave Burton, provided a methodology how to calculate the probable torque required for a specific model. I t comprised Cl=0.5*Roe*V^2*A then taking moments of the clevis and its position. In reality the toque required was pretty low. Just think back to the days of SLM, Westwood(or was it Winwood), Waltron servos. Where a central wing servo would drive via snakes, or push rods/bell cranks. Many quite large, reasonable fast models managed to be controlled. I suspect that many models have servos that are many times over specified relative to duty. Yet this approach is reassuring, if not expensive. Just consider how many ARTF models manage quite well with essentially 9g servos. Then again, what price is safety? Must order a RSJ for the spar for my next model. Or could I undertake a simple calc, or see what others manage with?

Paul, on reflection, the direction of the Geese seems all wrong. I normally see Geese coming from the North with a following wind. Yesterday, they came from the east, in a generally westerly wind. Here, there is just rain and very strong wind. No flying it would seem for a few days, now.

John, I obviously chose a bad example with ZF. There will be a some companies whose present output is solely as an IC supplier, they either have to develop new markets or die. MatyB, much of what I have quoted has come from Business pages, which I no longer have, nor probably able to find the original on the Internet. Today there is an interesting article in the Business section of the Telegraph. It covers the sales of Tesla, sales drop, discounting on various models, new broader range models and the impact on share price (down). You make of it as you wish. I do find that the business sections of various media publishers gives a far more informative source, rather than the placed stories in the main bodies of publications. As for sweeping issues under the carpet. For me it is the lack of generating capacity (at this time), the problems of lack of interconnector capacity, never mind the true position of wind generation (much is made of transient production, ignoring the base load issues). IMO this is just a snap shot of a whole variety of issues, a room full of Elephants. The issue of who should pay for this transition is yet another issue, increasing the Standing Charges for all, seems very unfair to the lower paid etc. As for the weight issues with EVs, it is very real, most IC SUVs , weigh the same as the majority of EVs, at the lower end The concerns of Multi story car parks, increased road wear are not the figment of being Anti-EVs groups/individuals, they are real issues. Some of the resent EV SUVs have a weight that no one would have thought as credible a few years back. I probably will now never buy an electric vehicle, as much to do with my age and the purchase cost. I am not against them (EVs) per se, at present my Diesel is OK. Longer term EVs will have to raise the tax contribution to the Treasury as IC vehicles make today.

MatyB, I was quoting an article, with respect to proportional battery value. On reflection the concept that some manufacturers are loosing money on EVs, has been true, maybe still true. The question why would that happen, it seems in the case of the BMW i3 was a case in point. Then some have been producing EVs to achieve quotes. These sort of things do confuse the waters as to true costs of batteries, never mind manufacturing infrastructures, design costs. In the mean time the VAG Group, Mercedes, BMW, Peugeot etc have their existing manufacturing plants to economically run down. Then think of the other suppliers such as ZF, are they dead in the water, or did they see the righting on the walls? Again from what I have read, at present it makes sense for companies to buy/lease EVs as it is claimed it is tax efficient compared to IC. Nothing at present is crystal clear to me, much of the claims with respect to EVs vehicles, is hype, the difficulties glossed over. Who should pay for the additional infrastructure seems to be ducked. The additional damage to roads should be paid for by EVs, IMO the user should pay, not the carless old age pensioner, or other similar type of group. I am not anti EVs, nor an enthusiast.

Matty The cost of the batteries was quoted as part of the article on repair costs of EV vehicles, resulting in as much as 100% higher insurance premiums when compared to comparable IC cars. I must admit how you can compare a IC to EV on cost, has me scratching my head, what do you actually class as comparable, but I got the message.

At the field today, as the rain started, many thousand of Geese flew over. I have never seen so many, "V" formations, formation after formation passed over, at probably 500 feet. There could have been at least a hundred formations. I am not sure I have seen Geese this early, certainly in the compact numbers. Ah, yes, flying, just a few circuits. I was lateish having done the weeks grocery shopping for the week, first thing. Initially i thought a bit cloudy, clouds seemed highish. Then a few large drops fell, followed by many, many more. I went home for a late lunch. My wife playing golf, came home much later, having given up at the 9th, then going into the club house for coffee. I left thinking what do the sudden arrival of the Geese mean, anything? The track is acquiring a layer of mud. The grass is now wet, without rain. Also the wind has returned, even whilst raining. What does Autumn hold for us, never mind Winter

I do not dispute at all that regenerative braking makes sense. Although I have noted that when coasting (whilst in gear) the mpg (on the mpg indicator) goes to infinity (obviously not true, breaking all the laws of physics). I also note that BMW recommend that you should coast towards a stop, rather than brake. I have also read that it is more efficient to coast in gear than out of gear. I must admit, I do not see the logic. I vaguely remember that in physics or was it applied maths, when another student suggested that you should be able to infinitely coast from one hill to another, using that mgh=0.5mv^2. The tutor said the obvious fly in the ointment that not all hills and depressions are a true sinusoidal wave. Yet the real problem is that to many components of the real world model such as drag, friction, rotational losses and other factors are ignored, in these applied maths problems. I have mentioned it previously that when returning home on a particular journey, it was raining hard and that my normal motorway 80 mpg had dropped to about 30 mpg. It surprise me that pumping water past the tyres was so costly. I must admit, I have had some issues with Windmills. Where I live there are two Windmills (last year one lost it sails, getting national coverage), there was one more, in the immediate locality. I have pondered in the past, how would you model the economics of wind powered flour production versus then steam powered flour mills (now electric). At first thoughts it seems free energy would always win, yet has not. For some years now I have thought, working out what works and why, is not always as obvious as it would first appear.

I appreciate that regenerative braking is a good feature. Yet, it is not essential for energy efficiency. In my case I drive a diesel car, it averages 55 mpg. I am still using the original brake pads and tyres at 55, 000 miles. Driving style is important, particularly with respect to tyre particulate production, now the latest plague. I have just read that "Copart" that 50% of electric vehicles of low mileage EVs, exhibit battery damage. It is not clear why, other than these are low damaged vehicles. the ABI (association of British Insurers) has written that at present it is costing 33% more to repair EVs compared to IC vehicles. It seem that EV design has some way to go. I have also read that half the value of a EV is the battery. I am not convinced that many EVs are not overpriced. It suggests that a a typical £40,000 vehicle (often a low cost for an EV), that it cost £20,000 to build the rest of it. Then there is the EU suggestion that Chinese manufactures are dumping EVs as they are often much cheaper. Hmm who is doing what? The changing the sales point of IC vehicles from 2030 to 2035 is probably a good one for the UK. It appears that the EU saw the UK as where the money would come from due to a constrained market, to fund the change to manufacture of EVs. All whilst the European IC engine, gearbox etc plants could be run to the end of their natural production life. Now that cash cow is not as easily exploited. Particularly as the data on pollution of the latest IC vehicles is pretty good, even compared to whole life energy audits. Of significance to us modellers (those with Balsa wood, egg box, infill) in the ImechE mag, there was a article indicating that the viable life of Wind Turbine blades is as calculated or lower (limited by fracture mechanics, of composite, crack propagation). Apparently the Resin matrix is a significant disposal issue.

To me it is interesting in that the reality of EV when compared to reality is often very different. Many EV adherents, often are dismissive of any who have reservations, often dismissing opposing or reserved positions as being uniformed. Today I have read that "John Lewis" are ceasing offering EV insurance, a number of reasons are proffered. Other reports is that the insurance is typically double similar IC vehicles. Apparently a collision of a EV vehicle results in a right off, that working on them requires some at present onerous requirements. I have read a few reports that tyre particulate is far higher with EVs than IC vehicles. A number of reasons are typically proffered. That the weight of the typical EV vehicle is higher than an IC vehicle, which increases wear in cornering, braking, and accelerating. Apparently EV tyres have less tread to reduce unsprung weight, does not seem that logical to me, but it will increase tyre sales. Apparently EV servicing is not as low as predicted, with a trend towards higher costing as experience has been gathered. That even today their are issues with the ability to both generate the necessary energy, at peak times, with difficulties with the interconnectors suppling some locations, such as motorway service stations. Some bodies are urging higher domestic standing charges, to pay for grid updates. Green generating costs are still higher than precovid costings, for a variety of reasons, still not matching the Coal costs. There appears to be a host of smoke and mirrors hiding that carbon emission charges and other additional costs hide the true cost of Green power, when compared to other means. I dread to think what the impact of high speed trains will have, typically using 10Mw, to run at about 200 mph. I think there is a lot of work, cost needed to implement a dream Green World, which I suspect will have many unexpected consequences. Pity that Germany and China seem to be increasing their Carbon footprint, at this time.

The nearest I have come to flying a model, was my flight back from Rome last week. I was surprised that there was a strike by the bus workers, although everything seemed much as normal, from my perspective, due there being a minimum service level law/regulations? Any way, it is now raining heavily here now, a good job as I have had the lawn re-laid. My better half, my wife, tried to throw me out of the house, to go flying, this morning. I need to check the charge levels on some models, must do that. Just to think, the week that I left for Majorca, then a week later to Italy, I had flown down at the field. Then there was glorious sunshine, the track baked hard, a dust cloud following my car as descended to our car park. On closing the track gate, I was aware of a large cat watching me from down the track, was this the Fylde Black Beast, I quickly climbed back into my car, for safety, the cat moved into the adjacent field, I was not afraid of it being black, as our cat was black and never brought ant ill luck, however many times he cut across my path, telling me, it was time to feed him. I was wrong to be so Blaise, as the wing covering on my Nobler peeled back, the model turning towards the stripped wing, then crashing. It seems that Seamstress adhesive is no substitute foe Balsa lock. Then my Wot 4e did not pull out of a loop, at the 3/4 point continuing straight down to its destruction. To complete the humiliation, I landed short with my glider, semi stalling it onto the ground. At least I can now see all my misadventures after my Cataract operations. I am now about to check all my models hoping for better weather. In southern Europe the temperature was about 35C, the wind soft, the sky blue. Was there a summer here?

I was considering the question posed by a contributor as to reliable studies, and their conclusions. Although not counting or having read any in depth, just newspaper quotes, it seems most, if not all, have concluded that measures as, low emissions zones, restricted routes and lowered speed limits are inconclusive, with respect to any reductions sought. It is acknowledged that stationary traffic, with engines running will emit the highest levels of exhaust emissions. It stands to reasons that low speed limits allow vehicles to run closer together. The next bit would require some maths, to establish a relationship between the exhaust emissions at any speed, and the braking distances. At the end of day all very theoretical, at maximum traffic density possible. The result would at best be indicative. Some published reports have suggested that the restrictions have at best made little to no difference, in some instances worsening the results in other streets. From an emission stand point, it seems that old diesel buses (as used on bus routes) were the biggest polluters, by a large margin. I am guessing that why there has been a drive for modern buses and more recently electric buses. Apparently local buses are the largest contributors to particulate pollutions from accelerating and stopping. Particularly electric buses due to higher weight issue. An aside at least one study indicated that IC buses with typical passenger occupancy, emit higher emissions than a single occupancy car. Hence the drive to get more people to use buses? With respect to road deaths, it seems logical that lower speeds will results result in lower deaths. One report seemed to indicate that the relationship is less than anticipated. That traffic density and other road users and drivers behaviours is just as significant. Again I have read that deaths per 100, 000 was much higher in the horse drawn era than today, additionally there were very high serious injuries arising from looking after the horses, gathering the feed stock, shoeing etc. Sometimes you wish you had saved all the articles, then I think, that is a bit anal, and still open to counter claim. Particularly that for some, their believes, dogma, are more important than what may pass for facts. It does seem that many issues relating to private transport have more to do with money making, than anything else.

From personal experience , I do believe that researchers are every bit as driven by self interest as any other group. Most recognise that any study funded, invariably will be influenced by the commissioning body, without any pressure. All know which side their bread is buttered, it does not need to be a Tabaco or drug company. Another aspect of life is that we all accept some risk, be it mowing the lawn, or something more obviously risky. Our life style depends on risk, or we would still be in a cave, most having died in their late twenties or early thirties. Perhaps i wonder how many more deaths there would be if 20 mph was adhered to by emergency services? Possibly the biggest elephant in the room is the economic cost, in that some productivity will be lost. The reduction in GDP will result in some public service reduction, or higher taxes, or claiming that UK government are not providing sufficient funding etc. The 20 mph limit will come with some unexpected cost.

There are a number who are begrudging the 9 consecutive wins. As for the excuse of my team mates have all been of higher quality, that is why I have never matched it, hmmmmm. A number seem to have chips on their shoulder. The 5 sec penalty for what the two Mercedes drivers seems trivial, in that cost them very little, whereas one victim paid a much higher penalty from the incident.

Not having made any predictions has not hurt as much as I had feared.🙂

I for one will welcome the return of HK, if it happens. |I was a happy shopper with them. Still to try Aliexpress. Amazon purchases VAT paid from other than UK have worked for me. As have some UK on-line retailers, as for me high street Hobby shops have been a poor, expensive, low choice retail option for many, many years, now extinct.

I support John's views and wishes. In my case, the operation was a good decision. From a model flying prospective, resent incidents whilst flying would most definitely resulted in either a fly away or crashed model. It would not surprise me that other instances thave occurred, that went unnoticed by me, as I just saw the issues as just flying. So I wish you as John, all the best.

I had an afterthought with respect to model flying when returning from any absence. I heard the sound of people panicking, whenever anything untoward happens. I had not realised that my pastime of playing video games, particularly those with shooting/fighting seems to help when a model gets into a sticky situation. You learn not to panic, that all is not lost, until it is. Plus a degree of planning and re-planning (plan B) is all part of the game. The mindset seems to help when flying a model. My flight simulator comes nowhere near! I also now believe I now tend to go to the field to meet and talk with others. Flying the model is part of the reason. Then again I am probably one of perhaps two or three who build and fly their own models, perhaps the only one who designs ( if not to strong a term) their models. The vast majority of the remainder all seem to be ARTF types. Now giant scale foam models have appeared. Even gliders are expertly constructed and finished, to a standard I could never achieve. All this comes at a cost I see as significant. I must confess that I do now fly a second hand wot 4. It flies itself, apparently straight from a box. It is my number 2 model, for each visit. Non the less all seem to enjoy flying trouble free flying.

Not strictly HK, although related to this thread. In AliExpress, is there a obvious quick glance way of identifying which items are shipped as VAT paid?

Unlike many who contribute to this thread, the weather in this neck of the world, has not been great, not even good. After a reasonable June (I think), there has been little respite from wall to wall rain and high winds. Although it is seldom other than breezy here, by the coast. When I restarted modelling, shortly after retirement, I would fly essentially daily. Then I lived one mile from one club field and 1.5 miles from my other power club. I would be at 1.5 mile club in about 5 minutes, the one mile club generally in 5 minutes. In winter, when there was a high pressure, I would fly on the municipal golf club that backed onto my garden, as it was closed to golfing. Now my club field is just over 10 miles away. It now takes at least 35 minutes. It should be an easy hassle free journey, but is not. From road works that suddenly appear on the three viable routes. Then there was the anti frackers, wandering across the road, the police more interested in interfering with ordinary motorists. I seldom get to the field now. It does seem that not many are getting to the field either. AS entering the rough farm track, I was very aware of the central grass ridge was brushing across the underside of the car. Much of the car park crass was long. Although the runway was pretty well maintained and shortish. However I have made it a few times in recent weeks, yesterday being one. Now I can see better, many of the planes I have spared from aviating, are being pressed back into service. I no longer fly around their quirks, I am slowly bringing them all to a similar predictable level. Being old, I don not remember which had very sensitive pitch/elevators, which had similar aileron issues, or in what combinations. Yesterday one more model was sorted, my replacement delta. It used to squirm out of rolls, who ever tried to fly it. An additional pair of servos driving the Elevons has done the trick. The down side, was the further embarrassment of a A1/3 type small motorised glider, which had an initial Lipo issue, a new one purchased via Amazon, which turned out to be duff on the flight line, as two cells had failed. A borrowed smaller Lipo came close to ending in disaster. I really, really, should have checked accurately the CG, as moving back ever so slightly resulted in a wild ride under power. As voices around screamed for the club (truly) best flyer to take over, I resisted. Not until I had it under control, or what passed from something approaching control, with some height gained. To achieve that goal I kept on a modicum of power, still pretty wild, although I got there. Only then did I hand over, I was immediately was chided that I had power on, there was no point on explaining why. Things did not get better as the new pilot found the model was extremely sensitive in pitch, the that directional control was not apparent. The model did come down in one piece. Then it became that the young pilot had never flown rudder, elevator only, being surprised that the rudder was on the right hand stick, rather than the multi channel left. I have only one more model to get sorted with my colleges help, which is also sensitive in pitch, witha reluctance to nicely take of. Most others flew reasonably well, other than many landings were untidy due to a cross wind. As for me, I would like to get to the field more often, I have a hanger full of models that have not flown for years, which I want to fly, even if it means some will crash. It does seem I was much better when I was younger, that is what my memory and recent experiences are indicating.

It does appear that a number of businesses based in the Far East are now importing into the UK Vat payed, which also seems to include Amazon. The demise of Ripmax, in its present form will present additional opportunities for purchases from these retailers. No doubt some will argue that we could be purchasing counterfeit goods. Although in my opinion at the middle to low end of the market, counterfeiting is pointless. Also the LMS future is further undermined. again in my opinion the main threat to most is the Council tax, additional Waste disposal charges (carboard boxes/packing), utility bills for water, electricity and so on. They need an awful lot of customers, to pay these overheads,, where as the rent is now often trivial in many cases. Also they have to be in the right location (not the high street) with car parking. All of which brings us back to HK, why not a business arrangement with Alibaba or some one similar that deals with the vat issue, avoiding the customer handing charges, and the incurred Vat. The UK customer base for our hobby has shrunk, will continue to shrink, as many of us, now see that we are the older, if not the oldest club member. Personal imports via the likes of HK could extend the participation in our hobby, at affordable cost, delaying the niche retail aspect that is looming, or has engulfed us. But what are the options for high value items, such as RC sets, IC engines (particularly the UK high end engines)?

John I suspect you are correct with Russel, although not as outspoken and accusative as Lewis, some how it does not come across as impartial. Plus I guess his existing team would also suggest that he could be taking information with him. Lewis seems to more than hint at the RB being illegal, in that it does not confirm to the regulations. I do remember the Mercedes tow in mechanism, as being illegal when RB stated they were introducing a similar system, and would hence forth be for all teams. I guess that Mercedes wings and body parts are totally rigid, as allegations at other teams suggest this.

Wooraaa isn't he just down the road now in an Italian Red Bull, will he be allowed back in a proper Red Bull. At least Chico gets back up the grid, in the race, having handicapping himself in qualification. Now, the possibilities explode, what about Norris or Russel in a Red Bull. I just remember there was no way that he Lewis would allow Vettel drive a Mercedes. Oh, the politics. Will my driver be replaced? will he be any better, given the politics?