Mantua Fieseler Fi 156 Storch

[PeterB]

Just to let you know that I added a few more photos of my Storch in "My Photos" They some of the build, Finnishing, and flying.

 

Before I try and answer J.N. I have a question for Seamus.

 

In an earlier post you mention Dural Wing mounts, I have Carbon, Are they one piece and are the wings attached and then held in place by small screws .

 

Now for JN, Yes it is an Aviomedelli Storch,and as you can in the photos I build it myself.

 

The engine fitted is an ASP 65fs. No mods to the engine bay.

 

 

Also no lead needed to get the C of G correct, (moved the battery)

 

I remove the slats for flying for better aileron and rudder response.

 

With my new U/C takeoff and landing are now just great, wheels set with about one degree of toe in helps to stop ground loops.

 

Flaps, well with all the problems I have had, test flight, repairs, test flight, repairs. Give up try again some months later etc, I have only tested out the flaps once at a safe height. They work every well, at half flap the will gain a little height, so you have back off a little on the engine, at full flaps she will then nearly stop! So I would say for take off half flap and landing half or full flap once you are happy after trying them out at a safe height. They are fun to use.

 

Hope the above helps.

 

 

I have removed the radio gear at the moment, I am going to try a new way of securing the wings as I think they can move during flight and or not always attach in the same place each time!!

 

Peter

 

[J.N.]

Posted by RAF-P on 13/01/2012 16:10:35:

Just to let you know that I added a few more photos of my Storch in "My Photos" They some of the build, Finnishing, and flying.

 

Before I try and answer J.N. I have a question for Seamus.

 

In an earlier post you mention Dural Wing mounts, I have Carbon, Are they one piece and are the wings attached and then held in place by small screws .

 

Now for JN, Yes it is an Aviomedelli Storch,and as you can in the photos I build it myself.

 

The engine fitted is an ASP 65fs. No mods to the engine bay.

 

 

Also no lead needed to get the C of G correct, (moved the battery)

 

I remove the slats for flying for better aileron and rudder response.

 

With my new U/C takeoff and landing are now just great, wheels set with about one degree of toe in helps to stop ground loops.

 

Flaps, well with all the problems I have had, test flight, repairs, test flight, repairs. Give up try again some months later etc, I have only tested out the flaps once at a safe height. They work every well, at half flap the will gain a little height, so you have back off a little on the engine, at full flaps she will then nearly stop! So I would say for take off half flap and landing half or full flap once you are happy after trying them out at a safe height. They are fun to use.

 

Hope the above helps.

 

 

I have removed the radio gear at the moment, I am going to try a new way of securing the wings as I think they can move during flight and or not always attach in the same place each time!!

 

Peter

 

 

Thanks for the update, the photos are very instructive, glad to see you have the built up wing version. My wing mountings are the same as yours and I will be very interested to know if you modify your mountings.

 

What did you cover the fuselage and wings with?

After looking closely at the undercarriage I am concerned that mine is not right. I hope the following explanation makes sense.

 

On mine the L/G lower support 103 has a large enough diameter to accept the brass tube L/G tubing 101. I used the grub screw in the L/G lower support to secure the L/G tubing in place and epoxied the Hubs 102 (axle) into the brass L/G tubing. Suspension movement then takes place with the brass L/G tubing moving up the L/G legs 107 against spring pressure.

[PeterB]

Hi JN

 

I will have to find my copy of the plan as it is a while now since I finished building the Storch (April 2007!!!). But I can remember the U/C drove me mad the first time I put it together. I will have a look tomorrow.

 

The aircraft is covered in Solertex. Then I hand painted with Dulux mat emulsion, using their mixing service in Home Base. Then Satin Fuel Proofer.

 

Peter

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

Yep mine are held with those small screws, absolutely rubbish
may have to come up with a mod also. Pitty I didn't know when I was building it things would have been easier.

[J.N.]

Posted by Seamus O'Leprosy on 13/01/2012 20:46:31:
Yep mine are held with those small screws, absolutely rubbish
may have to come up with a mod also. Pitty I didn't know when I was building it things would have been easier.

 

 

Will you please let me know what the problem is. I can still access these mountings and have the opportunity to make modifications if I knew what had to be modified.

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

It's those little screws they don't grip the rural too well, I would file a little slot in the dural for the tips of the screws to go into making it less likely for the wings to slide out.
SO'L

[PeterB]

I have added a couple more photos, they show the A/C U/C that I used to mod my Storch.

 

I also have a 3D drawing that I found on the net which I used to get the correct angles etc.

 

You may be able to find it by searching FIESELER 156C-3 STORCH . It was drawn by: KARLSTRUM.

 

The main problem I found with the kit U/C was the grub screw holding item 102 in item103. If and when it slackens off it allows 102 to turn!! Or in other words when this happens on landing/takeoff the main wheel turns 90 degrees!!!!!

 

My modified U/C....... The main leg is now one piece, ie 1 port and 1 stdb.

I still use items 106, 108, 112, 113, and 103.

I made 2 new 109 to fit and you only use 1 grub screw in 106 and no!!! grub screw in 103.

This allows full movement to the main U/C leg.

 

The 2 new main legs still slide into the brass tube item 38 on the fus drawing.

 

All the new U/C angles I worked out using the 3D drawing.

 

Now my plan of action for the wing, I am thinking of using 2 nylon screws and anchor nuts each side at the wing root rib and centre section ribs. This I hope will then do away with the 2 grub screws. This will not be easy on the finished A/C, also how to tighten them is not going to be easy!!!

 

Peter

 

[PeterB]

Hi JN,

 

Sorry, I didn't answer your question about your U/C. I have had another read and look at the plans, it sounds that your assembly of the lower part of the U/C is correct. You said:-

 

" On mine the L/G lower support 103 has a large enough diameter to accept the brass tube L/G tubing 101. I used the grub screw in the L/G lower support to secure the L/G tubing in place and epoxied the Hubs 102 (axle) into the brass L/G tubing. Suspension movement then takes place with the brass L/G tubing moving up the L/G legs 107 against spring pressure."

 

This is as per Fig 29. It is the grub screw (108) in the lower support (103) that allows items 101and 102 to rotate when it loses it's grip on the brass tube (101).

 

After rebuilding this part of the U/C, (fig29) a couple of times was the reason I ended up with my modified U/C.

 

Peter

 

 

[PeterB]

Hi Seamus,

 

I would like to thank you for starting this thread on your Storch. I had put the repairs to my Storch on the back burner, but now, after I have finished a chipmunk I am building, it is next in line.

 

Your thread made me get the plans out and to have a look at problems I had had but also the fun the Storch as given me over the last couple or more years. So hopefully I will have her flying again this summer.

 

Thanks again

 

Peter

[J.N.]

Posted by RAF-P on 12/01/2012 20:08:00:

I have an ASP 65 fs fitted, more than enough power.

 

 

Peter

 

 

Perhaps you and Seamus are prepared to comment on my engine choice which is about to be placed on order, I have a few days in which to change/cancel.

I intended to fit a Laser 70 fourstroke to my Storch. The building instructions recommend a size 60 four stroke and 12x6 prop although on the outside of the box it states that suitable fourstroke engines are size 60-90. Laser recommend a 12x8 for their 70 engine.

 

I have no idea how your ASP 65 and ASP60 compare to a Laser 70, I am now concerned that a Laser 70 may be to powerful in light of your comments on your present engines.

 

I have to catch up on your emails, in the meantime I endorse the thanks to Seamus for starting this thread.

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

I am upping mine to a 70fs a 60 dosnt really give you the STOL performance if I was building another I would put new holes for the engine mount and use a 90fs

[PeterB]

I agree with Seamus the ASP 60fs is just too small. If I remember it is an ASP 52fs with a reworked bore size. It's up to you on engine size, I used the 65 because I had it at the time of the build. I think a 90 would be to big. Either 65 or 70, I think you will be backing off once up and flying about, will be just fine.

 

Peter

Edited By RAF-P on 15/01/2012 17:31:02

[J.N.]

Posted by RAF-P on 14/01/2012 14:28:24:

I have added a couple more photos, they show the A/C U/C that I used to mod my Storch.

 

I also have a 3D drawing that I found on the net which I used to get the correct angles etc.

 

You may be able to find it by searching FIESELER 156C-3 STORCH . It was drawn by: KARLSTRUM.

 

The main problem I found with the kit U/C was the grub screw holding item 102 in item103. If and when it slackens off it allows 102 to turn!! Or in other words when this happens on landing/takeoff the main wheel turns 90 degrees!!!!!

 

My modified U/C....... The main leg is now one piece, ie 1 port and 1 stdb.

I still use items 106, 108, 112, 113, and 103.

I made 2 new 109 to fit and you only use 1 grub screw in 106 and no!!! grub screw in 103.

This allows full movement to the main U/C leg.

 

The 2 new main legs still slide into the brass tube item 38 on the fus drawing.

 

All the new U/C angles I worked out using the 3D drawing.

 

Now my plan of action for the wing, I am thinking of using 2 nylon screws and anchor nuts each side at the wing root rib and centre section ribs. This I hope will then do away with the 2 grub screws. This will not be easy on the finished A/C, also how to tighten them is not going to be easy!!!

 

Peter

 

 

 

Thanks.

I am sure Seamus will read this as well, greetings.

First. I think the quality of your finish is great.

I would very much prefer your colour scheme but I am a little concerned that through lack of attention I may allow my Storch to fly too far away and become confused which way is up. It wo`nt be the first time, however that is some way off yet and I will have to become more disciplined in my flying.

 

I appear to have got my undercarriage right although I wish I had soldered the wheel axle securly into the brass tubing, I will look again at the wheel axle and see what can be done.

 

I am not quite sure what the problem with the wing connections is. Is it where the 2 graphite Wing Connections slide into the 4 wing connector holders, item 88 and 89

( shown in Fig 21on the plan) and are held in place by grub screws. If so it would appear that the whole wing retention to fuselage needs beefing up. If you could manage to post a photo it will be much clearer what the problem is.

 

There is me thinking that a size 70 Laser is too big, I am going to order an 80 Laser.

 

 

[J.N.]

Posted by RAF-P on 14/01/2012 14:28:24:

I have added a couple more photos, they show the A/C U/C that I used to mod my Storch.

 

I also have a 3D drawing that I found on the net which I used to get the correct angles etc.

 

You may be able to find it by searching FIESELER 156C-3 STORCH . It was drawn by: KARLSTRUM.

 

The main problem I found with the kit U/C was the grub screw holding item 102 in item103. If and when it slackens off it allows 102 to turn!! Or in other words when this happens on landing/takeoff the main wheel turns 90 degrees!!!!!

 

My modified U/C....... The main leg is now one piece, ie 1 port and 1 stdb.

I still use items 106, 108, 112, 113, and 103.

I made 2 new 109 to fit and you only use 1 grub screw in 106 and no!!! grub screw in 103.

This allows full movement to the main U/C leg.

 

The 2 new main legs still slide into the brass tube item 38 on the fus drawing.

 

All the new U/C angles I worked out using the 3D drawing.

 

Now my plan of action for the wing, I am thinking of using 2 nylon screws and anchor nuts each side at the wing root rib and centre section ribs. This I hope will then do away with the 2 grub screws. This will not be easy on the finished A/C, also how to tighten them is not going to be easy!!!

 

Peter

 

 

 

After claiming the underacarriage has been resolved it I dawned on me this morning that I still have not preventing the wheel with its axle (102) moving within the L/G Lower Support (103) taking with it the brass tube (101) if the grub screw cannot be relied on to keep everything square. The Wheel Axle (102) has to be securely fixed in 103, as you know 103 is aluminium making it difficult to select a suitable fixing medium. I am tempted to make a new 103 out of steel and hard solder 102 in place whilst keeping the heat away from the brass tube (101).

 

I sympathies with you and Seamus, remedies are coming to light that could have been sorted out at the building stage.

[PeterB]

Hi Seamus, JH,

 

I hope my comments about the problems I have had with my Storch as not put you off because when she is flying OK she looks just great in the air and is fun to fly.

 

"I am not quite sure what the problem with the wing connections is. Is it where the 2 graphite Wing Connections slide into the 4 wing connector holders, item 88 and 89

( shown in Fig 21on the plan) and are held in place by grub screws. If so it would appear that the whole wing retention to fuselage needs beefing up. If you could manage to post a photo it will be much clearer what the problem is. "

 

JH, your ref above to the wing problem I have had is correct. I don't think it needs any beefing up just another way of holding the wings tight to the fus at the fus centre section/wing root. At the moment when things go wrong and she has a coming together with the hard ground everything moves and gives a little without to much damage. All my repairs to press have only been to the fus to wing strut attachment points and the U/C. So I am thinking of only putting two 3mm nylon bolts somewhere at the wing root rib and fus centre section so that they will give before any damage to the wing etc.

 

 

Peter

Edited By RAF-P on 16/01/2012 11:45:30

[J.N.]

Posted by RAF-P on 16/01/2012 11:44:55:

Hi Seamus, JH,

 

I hope my comments about the problems I have had with my Storch as not put you off because when she is flying OK she looks just great in the air and is fun to fly.

 

"I am not quite sure what the problem with the wing connections is. Is it where the 2 graphite Wing Connections slide into the 4 wing connector holders, item 88 and 89

( shown in Fig 21on the plan) and are held in place by grub screws. If so it would appear that the whole wing retention to fuselage needs beefing up. If you could manage to post a photo it will be much clearer what the problem is. "

 

JH, your ref above to the wing problem I have had is correct. I don't think it needs any beefing up just another way of holding the wings tight to the fus at the fus centre section/wing root. At the moment when things go wrong and she has a coming together with the hard ground everything moves and gives a little without to much damage. All my repairs to press have only been to the fus to wing strut attachment points and the U/C. So I am thinking of only putting two 3mm nylon bolts somewhere at the wing root rib and fus centre section so that they will give before any damage to the wing etc.

 

 

Peter

Edited By RAF-P on 16/01/2012 11:45:30

 

 

I am not an expert however I do not think the wing securing grub screws are load bearing, I suspect they are just to hold the wing in position until the wing struts are fitted. Maybe the wing flexes and pulls away from the graphite wing connectors because the fuselage and wing mountings for the wing struts are not up to the job. The fault could lie with the wing struts and not the grub screws. If all the wing strut mountings were reinforced, and solid fixings to wing and fuselage were used, then surely the wing would be prevented from moving, bolts fitted through the wing connectors would then only have to cope with any pulling movement. Or, the wing connectors themselves are not strong enough.

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

You only have to file a V into the wing joiners where the screws make contact and that should prevent any movement

[PeterB]

Posted by J.N. on 16/01/2012 19:57:02:

Posted by RAF-P on 16/01/2012 11:44:55:

Hi Seamus, JH,

 

I hope my comments about the problems I have had with my Storch as not put you off because when she is flying OK she looks just great in the air and is fun to fly.

 

"I am not quite sure what the problem with the wing connections is. Is it where the 2 graphite Wing Connections slide into the 4 wing connector holders, item 88 and 89

( shown in Fig 21on the plan) and are held in place by grub screws. If so it would appear that the whole wing retention to fuselage needs beefing up. If you could manage to post a photo it will be much clearer what the problem is. "

 

JH, your ref above to the wing problem I have had is correct. I don't think it needs any beefing up just another way of holding the wings tight to the fus at the fus centre section/wing root. At the moment when things go wrong and she has a coming together with the hard ground everything moves and gives a little without to much damage. All my repairs to press have only been to the fus to wing strut attachment points and the U/C. So I am thinking of only putting two 3mm nylon bolts somewhere at the wing root rib and fus centre section so that they will give before any damage to the wing etc.

 

 

Peter

Edited By RAF-P on 16/01/2012 11:45:30

 

 

I am not an expert however I do not think the wing securing grub screws are load bearing, I suspect they are just to hold the wing in position until the wing struts are fitted. Maybe the wing flexes and pulls away from the graphite wing connectors because the fuselage and wing mountings for the wing struts are not up to the job. The fault could lie with the wing struts and not the grub screws. If all the wing strut mountings were reinforced, and solid fixings to wing and fuselage were used, then surely the wing would be prevented from moving, bolts fitted through the wing connectors would then only have to cope with any pulling movement. Or, the wing connectors themselves are not strong enough.

Posted by Seamus O'Leprosy on 16/01/2012 20:07:28:

You only have to file a V into the wing joiners where the screws make contact and that should prevent any movement

RAF-P  I agree Seamus, the problem I found with the carbon wing joiners is that they start to de-laminate at the slot. I will still be using the carbon joiners because as you say LN the nylon bolts are not load bearing. This way the bolts will be pulling the wing/fus together and not just relying on the holding friction of the grub screws.

Anymore ideas please before I start cutting into the wing/centre section

 

Peter

Edited By RAF-P on 16/01/2012 20:43:00

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

By the way mine are dural not carbon, the kit was purchased this year

[J.N.]

Posted by Seamus O'Leprosy on 16/01/2012 20:54:57:
By the way mine are dural not carbon, the kit was purchased this year

 

I wonder if this is significant, what thickness are your Dural wing connectors?

[Seamus O'Leprosy]

The same as the carbon ones

[PeterB]

Posted by J.N. on 16/01/2012 21:12:46:

Posted by Seamus O'Leprosy on 16/01/2012 20:54:57:
By the way mine are dural not carbon, the kit was purchased this year

 

I wonder if this is significant, what thickness are your Dural wing connectors?

RAF-P. I think it will make your life a bit easier Seamus. Not only I think you will not have the same wear problem at V slot, but also the carbon joiners really do flex forward and backwards a lot. I bought my kit nearly ten years ago!!! It seems that they must have had a few complaints and change the joiners from carbon to Dural.

 

Peter

[J.N.]

Posted by RAF-P on 16/01/2012 21:48:40:

Posted by J.N. on 16/01/2012 21:12:46:

Posted by Seamus O'Leprosy on 16/01/2012 20:54:57:
By the way mine are dural not carbon, the kit was purchased this year

 

I wonder if this is significant, what thickness are your Dural wing connectors?

RAF-P. I think it will make your life a bit easier Seamus. Not only I think you will not have the same wear problem at V slot, but also the carbon joiners really do flex forward and backwards a lot. I bought my kit nearly ten years ago!!! It seems that they must have had a few complaints and change the joiners from carbon to Dural.

 

Peter

 

 

Howabout dowels set into the Nose Ribs (item 9 and 10) to engage into the wing root rib as each wing is fitted, this would overcome the wing joiners flexing. It would also help if some means could be found to tighten the wings onto the Nose Ribs and hold them in place.

[PeterB]

Posted by J.N. on 17/01/2012 20:29:23:

Posted by RAF-P on 16/01/2012 21:48:40:

Posted by J.N. on 16/01/2012 21:12:46:

Posted by Seamus O'Leprosy on 16/01/2012 20:54:57:
By the way mine are dural not carbon, the kit was purchased this year

 

I wonder if this is significant, what thickness are your Dural wing connectors?

RAF-P. I think it will make your life a bit easier Seamus. Not only I think you will not have the same wear problem at V slot, but also the carbon joiners really do flex forward and backwards a lot. I bought my kit nearly ten years ago!!! It seems that they must have had a few complaints and change the joiners from carbon to Dural.

 

Peter

 

 

Howabout dowels set into the Nose Ribs (item 9 and 10) to engage into the wing root rib as each wing is fitted, this would overcome the wing joiners flexing. It would also help if some means could be found to tighten the wings onto the Nose Ribs and hold them in place.

I got my nylon screw size wrong the other day, 3mm really are too small. I think even 5 or 6 mm thread depth is to small to really have a safe pull. I sent for some 1/4-20 UNC nylon slotted hex head screws and 1/ 4 UNC-20 captive tee nuts. They arrived today and I think they are just right. Also one will be able to use a screwdriver or socket, which ever is easier for access. I don't think you will need to dowels then. If I remember I don't think that there is much space in the wing for the screw, so the tee nuts will be fitted in the wing with the bolts in centre section. How and were I don't know yet, it's just an idea.

Peter

 

[J.N.]

Posted by RAF-P on 18/01/2012 15:25:32:

Posted by J.N. on 17/01/2012 20:29:23:

Posted by RAF-P on 16/01/2012 21:48:40:

Posted by J.N. on 16/01/2012 21:12:46:

Posted by Seamus O'Leprosy on 16/01/2012 20:54:57:
By the way mine are dural not carbon, the kit was purchased this year

 

I wonder if this is significant, what thickness are your Dural wing connectors?

RAF-P. I think it will make your life a bit easier Seamus. Not only I think you will not have the same wear problem at V slot, but also the carbon joiners really do flex forward and backwards a lot. I bought my kit nearly ten years ago!!! It seems that they must have had a few complaints and change the joiners from carbon to Dural.

 

Peter

 

 

Howabout dowels set into the Nose Ribs (item 9 and 10) to engage into the wing root rib as each wing is fitted, this would overcome the wing joiners flexing. It would also help if some means could be found to tighten the wings onto the Nose Ribs and hold them in place.

I got my nylon screw size wrong the other day, 3mm really are too small. I think even 5 or 6 mm thread depth is to small to really have a safe pull. I sent for some 1/4-20 UNC nylon slotted hex head screws and 1/ 4 UNC-20 captive tee nuts. They arrived today and I think they are just right. Also one will be able to use a screwdriver or socket, which ever is easier for access. I don't think you will need to dowels then. If I remember I don't think that there is much space in the wing for the screw, so the tee nuts will be fitted in the wing with the bolts in centre section. How and were I don't know yet, it's just an idea.

Peter

 

 

 

I have always found that a socket cap head (allen key drive) screw is best suited for tight places. The cranked end of an allen key will give you all the leverage you need and if it is a really tight spot, shortening the working end of the key will give you more clearance. I am puzzled as to why you are using a UNC thread, is it because of convenience?

Model Fixings have all manner of fasteners in all manner of threads, head drives and metal. The service is quick and you can buy small quantities.

Please keep all of us informed.