Pete B Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I hadn't intended to take on two of our vastly more experienced contributors, honestly - and in one thread, too! However, seeing that DW and Phill were, I believe, both making the point I was trying to convey, Peter's video seems to illustrates what I was trying to explain perfectly. When I wrote 'An ail/ele turn exhibits a deep drop of the tail' it was perhaps an exaggeration and I should have written 'An ail/ele turn exhibits a dragging of the tail'. In practice, with the gyro, it certainly doesn't seem much more than experienced during a normal unco-ordinated turn. Watching Peter's video at the 2.00min mark and from 3.00min onwards, it is quite clear that aileron turns induce a small but noticeable 'up-rudder' compensation from the gyro during the turn, the opposite to that which is required. To make the rudder follow the turn, a control input is necessary to counter the gyro's reaction to the turn. What do others think? I agree totally with Dave's last paragraph. My flying site, on a hillside with plenty of trees to generate turbulence and rotor, does make flying difficult in breezy conditions and the gyros certainly improve the flying experience. I have an i86AP in a West Wings Fournier which was formerly a very twitchy flier and an Eagle A3 Pro in a Phoenix Rainbow, which I have been flying in conditions which previously would have been quite challenging. OK, tin hat on........ Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolstonFlyer Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 The gyro on the rudder seems to work well as shown in the videos. I would expect to see small correcting rudder movements just like the 3 axis AS3X does in some of the newer micro bind and fly planes. I have a spare heli gyro and I am going to try this on the rudder of my depron Eurofighter. Fingers crossed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolstonFlyer Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 This is a good video that shows fitting a rudder gyro to a Cub, sorry it has an advert at the start. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFXiImpRQV4 Edited By WolstonFlyer on 10/10/2012 11:10:09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Hi there. It gets more interesting as time goes on. I feel that the two threads are warranted because this thread's gyro installation is as simple as you can get it - 3 axis control could be a problem for some - simple single axis installation on the rudder is almost totally bomb proof for any novice to do. My choice to make the video was because a number of chaps in our club had Cougars and over the years I have seen that the Cougar could be a pain in the neck on its take-off run due in part to its very extensive rudder size. I felt it was a good choice of model to try with the gyro as there are plenty of them around in loads of clubs so it was a plane that was known to most. To fit a simple surplus single axis heli gyro and see what effect it would have would be interesting. For my own part having the gain pre-set and fixed clearly helped with the video because it showed there is a slight effect for the Gyro to correct the tail in a normal banked turn but the gyro input was nowhere near as much as I expected to see. I noted while flying the Cougar that the flatter the turn the more the gyro wanted to correct - which if you think about it flying in this way maximises the maximum turning force which is applied to the gyro unit, unfortunately this was NOT a feature I was looking for because I was hoping to use this type of "low cost" gyro on my WW1 fleet but flat turns are a feature of this type of plane in flight - it would mean upgrading the gyro to one which could be switched off at the Tx - getting away from it being very very simple. - I could not help to note a comment above regarding the "Cougar having relatively poor rudder control" which made me smile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolstonFlyer Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Hi Peter This video from the same guy seems to show that you can effectively turn the gyro off by setting the gain (travel adjust) to zero in the TX. You could then have a switch on your TX to switch the gryo, if you have a three position switch you could have it programmed for Off -> Rate Mode -> Heading hold mode This is what I am going to try with my DX8 He talks about this at 2:40 into the video. http://youtu.be/J4_q3NnDBu8 Part 2 - showing switch setup on the TX http://youtu.be/IEUl0Yyryb8 Edited By WolstonFlyer on 10/10/2012 12:04:21 Edited By WolstonFlyer on 10/10/2012 12:05:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Hi Wolstone Flyer. Just a word of caution regarding the setting up of a gyro on the Tx - you will find there are major differences in gain between JR and Futaba - so 50 on JR Tx will not give you the same movement as the 50 on the Futaba Tx. Heading hold can give you major problems if you don't allow your gyro to reset the centre points - with that to worry about and also the other axis being controlled by other gyro's you could be in real trouble. Due to the problems you can get is why I opted to "keep it simple" and as bomb proof as I could. So beware and be very cautious with what you do as you could be introducing some very unwanted gremlins into your model that will fight you all the way to the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolstonFlyer Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Don't worry I will be very careful and test the settings on the ground first. I am just going to stick to a single Assan GA250 gyro on the rudder and with settings for Gyro off and a setting for Rate mode and start at 25 - 30%. I am just hoping for a bit of stability on windy days, the RC Powers V2 Eurofighter flies quite slowly and gets pushed about quite a bit even in light winds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Hi again. Should be OK with that - good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Posted by PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap on 10/10/2012 11:27:19: the Tx - getting away from it - I could not help to note a comment above regarding the "Cougar having relatively poor rudder control" which made me smile... That of course being a part clip, changing its meaning.............a bit like me quoting you as " I could not help"..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 Quick update on the Cougar - I wound-up the gyro sensitivity to it's full potential and gave it a go - OK at first with the same take off advantage. Climb out was normal and you could see the gyro was counteracting the torque as usual BUT IN A DIVE... IT WAS SWIMMING. FISH TAILING ALL ALONG ITS FLIGHT PATH. Landed quick, took the gyro settings back to how it was before at half way - Now the plane is back to being a "real gent" and I am going to leave the gyro in there as it does help. A very SIMPLE & Cost effective modification which works and you don't need a degree in science or electrical engineering to fit it.... - "SIMPLES" - As the TV add says... You may still get the "cheat" comment from some pilots however just tell them to go and see any heli pilot and say the same thing to them about their fitted gyro!!! Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Olsen 1 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 This thread got me interested since I have a couple of projects under way that might benefit from a bit of extra stability, both being WWI fighter types. So I decided to go the whole hog and ordered a three axis unit, then the orange ones came back in stock at HK so I have ordered a couple of those to play with as well. The first one to arrive is a Fyetech unit, this is pretty upmarket in price but comes with all the leads and instructions and is in a nice little CNC case. So far has only had about two minutes testing on the ground in the nearest convenient model. It certainly looks promising although I am going to have to reverse the aileron channel before I try to fly it. This unit is actually switchable via a spare channel, three modes...off, stabilise, and heading hold. The off could be useful during the setting up phase, they say to turn it on in flight at a good height and turn it off if anything untoward starts to happen. The main difficulty I can see so far is that I will have to arrange aileron differential mechanically rather than programming it on the radio, but that should not be too much of a problem. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi John. Must admit I have WW1 models myself and as I had a few old gyros going spare it was that which prompted me to start messing about so I put it in the Cougar. Only thing I found was that the gyro fights a flat turn - which looks so good on WW1 planes so it would need to be turned off in the air to get the right results to look at on the ground. Shame my old gyros can't be turned off so I may make the investment so the take - off roll is better. Good luck to you and look forward to the feedback Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianlouis Haddock 2 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Hi, I am fitting the Eagle Tree Guardian 2d / 3d to my clipped wing cub, just read the manual on there web site, £56 from fast lad, after all the money and time building i want to give her and me the joy of staying in one lump, not in the black bag, and our field has a lot of cross wind, if it is as good as it clams, i will fit one to all the big wing models that i am looking to build, and when asked at sum of the shows , the big boys tell me they have them fitted for bad weather landings,but don't shout it out, best regards. brianlouis haddock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hi all. I was very pleased with the difference the fitting of this simple gyro made to take off and landing of the Cougar because there is no doubt it is an aid with some planes. Due to the video experiments I posted here I again fitted a simple "always on" gyro set at just under half rate to my new Curtis P6C-3 Hawk. The plane has a massive history and is over 27 years old and never flown but I was convinced that due to the very high nose angle of this plane a gyro could be a wise move. The plane had its maiden flight on Sunday 18th November. I can report that I had no problems at all and the plane handled on the ground like a dream. Take off was clean and any torque effect of the Laser engine swinging a rather large 14 x 8 prop was taken care of by the gyro with only a very subtle turn being visible. I think for my part this simple approach - with no frills and no whistles - seems to work and I myself have no intention to go further than this. My scale plane still turns as it should and unless you try this you will never know. The 3 axis system used elsewhere - where you can adjust all 3 axis and also switch the unit on / off is fine for others but "keep it simple & stupid" is fine for me as it does the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Olsen 1 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Well, some months later I have finally been able to try out a three axis unit in a model. (The summer here has been a bit dodgy so far, what with tornadoes and tropical cyclones...) The unit is the hobby king mk 1, now superseded by a better unit that has provision for V tails and for on/off via a spare channel. Mine is being tried out in my foamy Stinson. I started out with the gains set quite low, but enough to get some response from the surfaces when you move the plane. I haven't tried increasing them yet. It flies fine. It was quite calm this evening when we started, but the wind gradually got up. It does seem to reduce the tendency to nose over that is a feature with this plane. Having spats, and on grass, it is normally a bit tricky to avoid nosing over when you open the throttle, and then if you are using the elevator to hold the tail down she will take off too soon and want to tip stall. So I think that it is helping in that phase. General flying was fine, it can still loop easily. Doing a decent roll is not easy, but it never was, it is not really an aerobatic design. It does give the impression that a little rudder in the turns could be good, but that may be because this style of aircraft really should have a bit anyway, so I'm not sure if it is because of the gyro. By the last flight I was flying in a breeze that was evidently about 1/4 to 1/3 of the flying speed, going by the angle had to fly to make good a course at 90 degrees to the wind direction. This is quite a good breeze, although it was not especially gusty. Anyway, the model flew very steadily in this. So it certainly works. I'll experiment some more later. I also have the Fytech unit in another plane, and it has flown four times, but so far the gyro has not been enabled. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 Hi John. Very interesting results and I now myself have a gyro fitted to my refurbished Curtiss Hawk as the gyro worked so well on the Cougar. I found it just made things a bit easier on the things that are of help and never really noticed it was there on the other things that you do when you don't need one anyway ( if that makes sense) In conversation with one of the old hand who has been going to the shows for years and he said its old hat as they have been doing it forever but never shouted about it. They even set up rolls so it stays in a straight line at the flick of a switch - Don't, know how true this is because perhaps they don't want to shout about to much (I am told). Anyway when a bit of decent weather comes around I can fly my Hawk again - getting right fed up with the workshop as its all done and I just need the field to dry out and a bit of sun (what is that) - Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Olsen 1 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Well, to roll the Stinson at all nicely I have to apply full aileron and rudder in the same direction, then add in down elevator as she comes inverted. That hasn't changed with the gyro. Of course I could turn the gains up a bit and see what differnce it makes but it seems pretty good at the moment, so I am inclined to let things be. It does seem to me to have great possibilities for those awkward scale subjects that have bad habits, like say the Fokker triplane. Well, the full size one had bad habits so I guess we can't expect the models to be too much better. There will be limits to what the gyro can acheive, since one ot the problems with the Fokker is that on landing the wings blanket the rudder and tailplane, so you lose control authority. I just splashed out and bought one of those little UMX ducted fan Mig 15, with the built in gyro. It will be interesting to see how that goes. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Hi John. You are experiencing exactly the same as I did which was why I made the flights with the video camera on the plane - so I could see what was going on. What got me was the fact the electronic control inputs were so quick but the control surface movements were very small. I think as the gyro senses the error it corrects quickly and the electronic corrections are done far quicker than we can make them as we have to see the model move before we can put in an input (flying model by the seat of our pants). I am going to stick with the simple set up I have got but my intention is to fit a single gyro to most of my large models - the DR1. 73" would be my first choice because this can be unpredictable on take-off. Regarding the Fokker DR1 you mentioned the rudder is in dead air but if you look at the video again closely regarding the Cougars - the engine was given full throttle to see the torque / rudder reaction time / result and although the rolling direction changed slightly there was full control and no veer to talk of so I am positive the gyro will help. I have always felt the Cougar could be a good trainer with greatly reduced rates except for its bad ground hadling but the simple gyro gets rid of that problem. After messing about with two models now I am very positive and feel there is no further room for discussion on my part because with certain models the gyro "simply works" and my conclusion is based on simple fact of observation with both vision and video. As a further addition to the evidence already generated would anybody now try flying a model helicopter without a tail gyro - in fact most of the heli's are using flybarless so thats 3 gyro's... I think anyone reading this who has a ground handling problem - especially with scale aircraft should fit one as it will help the model last that bit longer and also allow fuller enjoyment of the hobby without frustration. I wonder if you now feel the same John? Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 Just an update for anybody that reads this - After making the videos and confirming the results as being of help in certain instances I have now fitted a gyro to my latest project which is the 94" Handley Page HP42 I have just finished renovating as I am convinced the simple gyro will help. If you want to see the latest old lady and the years that were removed from her (nicely mind) take a look at "scale Matters" where I ask for help on CofG for the Hanley Page HP42 - from that moment a record was kept and put on that topic site as the renovation went on - an on and on - in fact between 6 to 8 hours a day seven days a week for a month - I must be mad. Things have slowed down a bit as I have had an injection and cant move much for a few days but then its down to the field for the engine run-in and not too far of her maiden WITH the simple rudder gyro to help things along.... Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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