Modifying a Messerschmitt 109T

[Erfolg]

Recently I decide to use the models I already have, rather than keep building more new models. Really because life is to short. I do often break this rule, Hmmm!

Anyway some 20 years back I built a Bf 109T for a OS 25.

These days I cannot stand noise, never mind dirt and oil, oh, before I forget all that gubins required for IC

So I want to put a motor in it.

The model span is 48" span, bare airframe is 890 grams. I guess wil be nearer 2kg with everything.

I do use a Turnigy D3648/6 and a TR35-42b which is apparently the equivalent of a AXi 2820. I suspect that these motors are not quite up to the duty, being approx 400 watt motors.

Does anybody have suggestions for similar market sector motors

[Jon Laughton]

Erfolg

A quick call to Webbys or BRC hobbies will get you the required advice and then some..

Good luck

Jon

[Erfolg]

Jon

I do know Webbys quite well, and they are certainly an excellent all round model shop. There are limits to how much specialised knowledge that such retailers possess.

On the other hand, I have received excellent advice from this site. Specifically Tims advice on suitable motors for my Cloud model Me 163,along with other advice on such matters, which has proven the depth of knowledge that sites such as this possess

I do not wish to sound dismissive of either Webbies and BRC, yet being commercial organisations, they do come at the issue with their own perspective.

I welcome and value the collective knowledge of modellers,

Edited By Erfolg on 10/07/2013 16:45:57

Edited By Erfolg on 10/07/2013 16:46:52

[Dylan Reynolds LaserCraft Services]

Was the title of this thread a slip?

[Erfolg]

Most of my models get to be modified Dylan, it is sooner or later. To be honest it is always sooner than I would like. It seems to go with flying.

Now what about motors!

[Dylan Reynolds LaserCraft Services]

I was referring to the spelling lol never mind

[Colin Leighfield]

You seem to have similar taste to me in lesser known prototypes! I always thought that the enlarged wing on the 109T made it a good model subject. What about a B&V 155? (I know, tell me to do it myself. On the other hand, I won't be surprised if you already have)!

[Erfolg]

Dylan

What is wrong with modifying?

[Erfolg]

Colin

I have been considering and planing to build a 109H for some time, just never got around to it.

There are various accounts as to how many were actually produced. One reputable source suggests operational trials assessment usage. Although not as good as the Ta 152H.

There are issues as respect to the aircraft, as a number of different airframes used the same designation, at different times, also as a decoy.

[Colin Leighfield]

So many to choose from, surprising even now that some still seem to be un-modelled, or at least very rarely. Others that take my fancy include late versions of the He112 and of course the He100. Like you though, I've decided to concentrate on ones that I've already got and have sidelined or not finished for no sensible reason. Just received from George Worley a pair of brushless inrunners to re-motor my Hughes XF11, replacing the cheap Speed 600s that never did it justice. Shouldn't take too long, then get back to finishing the Seafang 32, which is well advanced and also won't take long.

[Erfolg]

I assume that is the Locheed Lightening look alike, but slimmer?

I guess you find like me that fitting brushless motors makes all the difference, and of course lipos.

Edited By Erfolg on 10/07/2013 23:12:34

[Colin Leighfield]

It's the same lay-out as the P38, but beyond that the resemblance is superficial, because the span and length are about the same as a Lancaster. It's a beautiful looking thing. Howard Hughes had a close working relationship with Lockheed for years and said that they got the basic design ideas for the P38 from him in the first place. Who knows? The XF11 was developed from a Hughes bomber prototype called the DB1 (I think) which is known to have flown but had some handling problems and was then destroyed in a hangar fire. The Air Force reckoned it had potential for PR, that lead to the XF11, featured spectacularly in the crash scene in "The Aviator" film, which destroyed the first prototype and severely injured Hughes on it's first test flight. (Caused by a contra-prop gearbox failure and pitch reversal). Most people don't know that a second was completed and flown by Hughes just seven months later, still recovering from the injuries suffered previously. The Air Force took it over for test purposes alongside the Republic Rainbow, designed for the same purpose and also later destroyed in an accident. In the end they decided to cut cost and use modified versions of the B29 instead, although they probably regretted that when Korea came long. The XF11 flew high and fast, 460mph. There were some low speed handling issues, but nothing that wouldn't have been ironed in the test process if it had continued, I'm sure. You may have gathered that I rather like it!

[Piers Bowlan]

I bought this motor, Turnigy 3548/6, to go in Peter Miller's Dragon Dancer 2 design, the free plan in DEC 2012 RCM&E. I was planning to power it with a 4S/4000mAh LiPo for the electric conversion. I am using a Turnigy Plush 60A ESC, which has a switch mode BEC. If you are planning to use a 3S LiPo I would be tempted to use a Higher KV motor (1000kv?), although I am no expert. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could make a suggestion.

If this model was built 20 years back are you planning to use the original standard sized servos? I just thought if you fitted some modern powerful micro servos you might save quite a lot of weight.

[Erfolg]

There is a book "Howard Hughes, an airman, his aircraft and his great flights," that may interest you, I think I paid less than £5 from The book People.

It doe include the XF-11.

[Dylan Reynolds LaserCraft Services]

Sorry Erfolg, just made me giggle a little

[Erfolg]

Piers

Although I wrote 3648/6 as a motor I am using, it should have read 3548/6, so SNAP! My records indicate I have seen 592w at some 35 amps.

I have found it to be very good, I would like a little more power, looking to get a little nearer to 700-800 watts..

[Piers Bowlan]

An input of 592W even at (say) 85% efficiency is about 500w output, which equates to 2/3 of a HP! So this is 32-35 2 stroke territory? Then you add the efficiency of an electric prop...and you want more power? You devil you .

Nice looking model Erfolg, by the way.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 11/07/2013 20:48:02

[Colin Leighfield]

Thanks Erfolg, I've read a lot about Hughes but not that one. I'll look out for it.

[stuey]

I fitted a HET TX3820 1050kv outrunner in my Ripmax Mustang replacing a poorly designed 4mm shafted motor which broke first landing. It has a 5mm shaft, pulled about 48-50a from a fully charged 3s-3000 pack on a 11x7 apc-e. Hand launches at 3/4 throttle, and had 50% left after 5min test flights. Seems good so far, got it from the large shark.

[Erfolg]

I have been considering the suggestion by Piers, there does seem to be merit in his suggestion. WW2 aircraft, generally were not rocket propelled, and were relatively slow. I think of airshows, where aircraft such as Spitfires appear. They do not go past like jet fighters, they are generally to the slow end of the speed spectrum, the sound being more evocative, than the speed.

On that basis the 3468/6 should provide a moderate speed, and have the ability to create a good speed in the climb, particularly zoom climbs, as seen at airshows.

Piers could be on the right track.

I have looked for the HET TX3820, although I can find sites with them for sale, actual performance data seems as rare as hens teeth.

I am getting the feeling it is a 4s lipo and a 3648/6, hmmm. Particularly if I can keep the weight down.

 

Edited By Erfolg on 12/07/2013 16:45:29

[Colin Leighfield]

I think that you're right Erfolg. With the extended wing of the 109T, I'm assuming that your model is about 1/9 scale? Even though significantly faster higher up, it would probably be pushed to exceed 300 mph at sea level. On that basis a scale speed would be not much over 30 mph. We certainly are pushing these models well beyond that, probably by (typically), 60/70%.

[Erfolg]

Colin I have no idea as to scale, it is some +20 years back since it was built.

I have ordered a motor a D3548/6, this will allow me the option via the propeller and Lipo size to get beyond 800w.

The second step taken is to start creating the space to accommodate the motor.

To get the motor in, it is necessary to widen the space between the motor beams, which are beech, epoxied into position, the whole lot covered in epoxy to seal from fuel ingress.

The distance has been widened out to accommodate the motor using a abrasive drum in a electric drill, scalpels. The gaps were opened up using internal callipers, set to determine how much material to remove and where.

[Colin Leighfield]

That's very promising Erfolg, can't see you going very far wrong with it. It's going to baffle a few people when they see a 109 with that extended wing, I imagine many don't know that there was a carrier version of the 109.

Another one intended for operation from the Graf Zeppeiln was a Henschel biplane, I think intended as a torpedo bomber. The Hs167(?). I've never seen it modelled, but I think it could be very good. They built a few of them and they were well used for a number of purposes, though not for what they were intended!

[Erfolg]

The selected motor arrived today, I am now contemplating my mounting options.

[Colin Leighfield]

Looks very promising Erfolg. I've just received a pair of inrunners and ESCs to retro-fit into the XF11. These came from George Worley at 4- Max, someone else I have found to be helpful.

Following one of your earlier comments, I found the book about Howard Hughes you referred to on Amazon and it arrived today (An Airman, His Aircraft, and His Great Flights). I'm pleased with it, a good addition to my "library"!