Flair Puppeteer conversion

[Andrew Green]

So, imagine the scene, I've been away from building for 2 or more years due to time, job and a young baby. I left my ongoing projects, a Boeing P-26 Peashooter (RCV 90 powered), a Flair Puppeteer (SC 52FS) and a control line combat wing (PAW 2.49), on the building board gathering dust. Well, I finally got back to doing some building over the Easter break and finished the CL model and made significant progress on the Puppeteer (fuselage, tail plane and one wing completed).

Now none of the motors have been run in the period I've been away from building so I thought a few runs on the test stand were in order - why did I bother!!!? The PAW wouldn't come any where near starting and the SC 52 was equally intransigent - in short I got thoroughly p*****d off. Then I got to thinking - wouldn't it be so much easier with electric power?

So here's the question can I convert the Flair Puppeteer to electric power and then, maybe, the P26? Now I know nothing about electrics beyond the Speed 600 and NiCd powered Easy Pigeon I have, but surely with brushless motors and LiPos I could get enough power to fly these heavier models and save the cursing and time taken up with the IC motors.

Can anyone offer any advice, has anyone done this? I guess the Puppeteer is heading towards 6 to 7 pounds without the engine - what sort of electrics would I need to adequately fly that?

Thanks. Andrew

[winchweight]

Naw!!!!! Don't do it. The engines should start, you just need to persevere. How old is the fuel, did the glow plugs light up? Are the fuel lines and clunk clear or have they become gummed up with old fuel. Try popping fresh fuel into the carb and through the glowplug hole and turn everything over for a bit to get it loosened up. Drain the fuel out, then set the mixture needle about 1 1/2 turns from fully in. With fresh fuel and a good glowplug (fully charged), prime it and try again..... and again.... etc, etc. It wants to start, it just can't yet. Try again, why go to all that effort and added expense. Works for me.

[Angus Simpson]

yea it seems silly converting to electric when you spent the money on the engines in the first place + ic sounds so much better :)

[Tim Mackey]

As a dedicated leccy flyer - I actually agree !
The Puppeteer especially is just crying out for a nice throbby 4T engine.
Apart from that, you will need quite a large wallet to electrify a 7lb draggy biplane. You would want to be aiming for around 600- 700 watts of power, which will require a fairly large battery pack /cell count if you are going to get any sort of decent duration. The SC 4T engines are great budget engines, and as Shaun has said......just give them a strip down, clean, nice new OS F type plug, and 10% nitro fuel. Electric starter is usually required on my cold 4T motors, but then a simple hand flick is usually sufficient once warmed up.

[Stovton51]

Hi Timbo,I did the ic bit around fifteen years ago 2 stroke and 4 stroke sold everything due to illness,now fit and well and back into it but this time i really would like to follow the leccy route I bought a rtf glider,esc and ni-cad it flew but only just it wouldnt climb above about 50 ft,a quick change of prop sorted that it will now climb as far as my old eyes can see although I think I over did it on size and pitch everything smells oooo so very warm maybe I should drop down a few sizes from the 9 by 7,standard was a folding 7 by 4,anyway any thoughts on electifying a ben buckle super 60 ? any ideas on motor,esc,li-po etc built and covered will weigh approx 3lb,any advice would be appreciated.

[Tim Mackey]

I also started around 20 years ago, "came back to it" after a 6 year lay off, sold everything, having decided that the future was electric, and regret it bitterly.
90% of my current fleet is now electric, but I still maintain there is a time and place for IC. I know it is a personal choice, but at the moment SATISFACTORY electrification of largish models is not financially viable for most of us.
However....if you insist......
3lb model without powertrain ??? Add around 10 oz for a decent 2200+ lipo, 2oz for a 40A ESC, and around another 8 or so for for wiring, switches, and radio gear and prop etc - total AUW now around 4lb plus.
Vintage style, you need around 100 watt per pound IMHO. That means 400 watts in total.
Assuming 3 cell lipo ( 10V under load )means you need a motor and prop combo that will draw 40A. Largish prop for the super 60 ( maybe 10 x 6 ) nice and torquey without overrevving, so that means a slowish turning outrunner brushless motor that is happy at around 40A / 400 Watts.
Axi 2820/10 has a KV of 1100 per volt...so expect about 10000 rpm on your 10 x 6 prop, pulling around 40A at WOT, but much less when pootling around as it should be.
HTH.
PS it would be wise to check with someone like John Emms at Puffin for confirmation of this set-up :-)It is also highly recommended that you get a whattmeter or similar to check current draw on various prop sizes...remember it is current that kills motors and ESCs... - NOT volts.

[Mike Rolls]

I use a cuple of Axi 2820/10s in aerobatic moels - AUW 3 lbs - 3 1/4 lbs. Wingspan 48". Prop 10x7, rpm 9,100, current draw 30-32A from 3s lipos (Poly-Pro 3700, E-tek 3400, ThunderPower 4000). These give 10 minutes of continuous aerobatics with a couple of minutes in hand for landing, allowing for somebody to go dead-stick,e tc., and are certainly more power than a Super 60 needs. For that sort of airframe the same power set up but with an 11x5.5 APC-E prop should be fine - I fly a semi-scale 44" WW1 style bipe on just such a set-up.
You do not want to be pulling 40A out of a 3s pack for relaxed flying.
My 400W set-up is a 60" Wildcap aerobatice - AXI 2826/10, 11x7, 4s 5000 pack and a 4 lb aeroplane - same sort of performance as the smaller one.

Mike

[Stovton51]

Hi guys thanks for the info,regarding the 3lb weight I was talking about,Half an hour with the wifes electronic scales tells me that the bare airframe (uncovered),2 std servos,rx,switch,35a esc and 4.8 rx pack will still get me within 3lb,take out the 4.8 pack and use bec,covered with lightspan or whatever maybe use micro radio gear with a wing chord like the 60 should be a rear floater,not looking for excitement with this one,getting the new ripmax phantom for that,birthday early next month you see,ha ha cant wait.

[Stovton51]

Hey timbo take a look at quiet and electric flight mag this month,how about a 100 inch span scale hornet with detailed cockpit,pilot,retracts,speakers,amplifier etc etc auw of 28.8lb and powered by electric,it is possible,if you are single, don't drink,smoke,drive,take holidays,unfortunately I do all of the above so I'll stick with trying to get the sixty in the air thanks again for the help.

[Dave Green]

just got back into flying model aircraft again after along spell with cars, what do you think would be the best for me to try ic or electric

[Tim Mackey]

Difficult one that.Consider the following..
ELECTRIC - clean, quiet, expensive ( relative to IC ) limiting as to weather / wind ...again relative to IC. Steep learning curve if you are not leccy minded.

IC - familiar, cheaper bangs per buck, versatile, noisier, simpler to understand, greater variety possible.

You can end up making expensive mistakes with electric setups, so it is pretty vital to get a good knowledgeable advice from someone like Puffin, on what to go for. The only thing I would say, is that GOOD electric stuff and cheap dont go together in the same sentence.

[Mike Rolls]

Sorry, Timbo but the comment 'limiting as to weather' is way out of date. Electric models now are every bit as versatile and competent as IC - see Anthony's comment above about the Hornet, for example.

Mike

[Tim Mackey]

I did stress RELEVANT TO IC.
I am well aware of the current electric setups available these days, but maintain my belief that pound for pound it is impossible to get a quality electric setup to produce the sort of performance available from an IC setup. Show me the electric setup that will handle a 20MPH wind like a 50 2T size Wot4, then compare the cost !!

[Mike Rolls]

Read what you wrote.
Mike

[Tim Mackey]

Mike...I dont understand what you mean ? I merely stated that compared to IC electric flight is limited in its ability to perform as well in adverse weather, for a given budget. I am not one for getting into long arguments on forums, so I will leave it there, I apologise to all if my post was unclear.

[Alistair Taylor]

Andrew/Anthony

I attempted to write a reply to this but it vanished into the ether.

I fly a mix of electric/IC - speed 400 sized (but using cheapy brushless) and speed 600 sized (RCM&E tucano with AXI 2820/10 - loves windy days and chasing Wot 4s).

Re: the puppeteer, this is suggested elsewhere on the www;

With a ready to fly weight of 8 lb. a power system with 800 watts of input power is indicated, that is also a 2-stroke .40 equivalent.
The Model Motors AXI 4130/20, a Jeti Advance PLUS 45 Amp Opto Brushless electronic speed control, an APC 16x8E prop and 7S1P 4000mAh Lithium Polymer battery would be an excellent system for this plane. You’d be putting in about 834 amps [watts I think he means], which would be super. If you can’t “clear” a 16-inch diameter prop you should consider the Model Motors AXI 4130/16, Jeti Advance PLUS 45 Amp Opto Brushless electronic speed control, an APC 14x8.5E prop and 7S1P 4000mAh Lithium Polymer battery

Personally I reckon this sounds like massive overkill, on price, components and weight.

Build your puppeteer light (replacing heavy balsa and not going to town on bracing the engine mounting area to resist IC vibration) and I reckon you'd get good performance from a much more economical setup. Bearing in mind of course that if you use NiCADs/NiMH cells you can use these as noseweight.

Timbo is right that you get what you pay for in terms of quality, but don't dismiss nicads/NIMH out of hand (especially in a plane like the Pup that relies on a big heavy motor to get the C of G right). Oh, and they don't do the Roman candle thing like Lipos.

Parting shot - an IC plane that spins in with a dead engine can get very expensive very quickly when the £100+ engine encounters the firma part of terra. EP powertrains (set up right) don't generally cut out unexpectedly. Knowing this can make flying in slightly adverse conditions (like windy days) a little less scary.

Alistair
PS - Ban buckle super 60 - Axi 2820/10 (or 2820/12), 8 - 10 cell packs, 300 watts (give or take), and stupendous takeoffs on 10 cells and 11x7 prop (but build it light!)

[Mike Rolls]

Timbo
Fair enough
Mike

[Mike Rolls]

Timbo
Reviewing what I wrote in my last two posts they seem unnecessarily abrupt. Soory - what I should have sais was that I do understand what you are saying, although I don't think the cost differential is nearly as great (given careful selection) as you believe.
Regards
Mike

[Tim Mackey]

Thats OK Mike :)
I was only trying to illustrate to Dave Green, who posed the question about IC versus Electric, that for a beginner, which I assumed he was, with Electrics and Flying, IC may be a better bet.I did not actually state that there was "great" gap between price points of the two variants, just that there was one :)
I am a full convert to leccy stuff, indeed I only have 2 IC planes left, but having attempted to put together a decent quality cheap electric trainer for my wife to learn on, I reverted to a second hand Wot4 (£10) and a 52 size SC 2T from ebay (£15), and not only was this cheap, but I find it much better for her to learn on. She can fly in harsher weather, for longer, and no waiting in between flights to recharge batteries. As I said originally.....it is not a straight-forward easy one this, with so much bewildering choice and variation within the "black art". For us more experienced leccy fliers, some of the mystery of KVs and winds, and C ratings etc etc are in the past, but for a newbie, I still think there is a long way to go.
Tim

[Mike Rolls]

Tim
Thanks for that - much agree with you - and a Wot 4/52 combo for £25 must be just about unbeatable!!

Mike

[Tim Mackey]

yeh...not bad eh/ the wotty was stripped and recovered, a bit of tidying up here and there - you know the sort of thing.....
but now looks very presentable, especially with its PINK spinner !!
The SC was like new, and I have to say runs as sweet as a nut :)
Tim

[Stovton51]

This all sound very interesting,but let,s face it with the noise polloution brigade and human rights,etc etc,electric is the power source for the future,those of us who can still belt around the sky with a wot-4 and a sixty should count their blessings their days are numbered,sad as it may seem,"times they are a changin",as are the die hards who prefer to actually build a model,A.R.T.F is leading the market,model shops are having to dedicate stock to suit the market to stay afloat.I come from old school,save for it,build it,fly it,crash it,save more and fix it and so on,leccy prices are falling and soon will be on a par with i.c regarding cost and endurance.

[Tim Mackey]

I was in a club 20 years ago, which eventually lost their site due to noise problems ( and it had had a model flying school on it for almost 50 years )so am well aware of the noise issue. As stated, I have only 2 IC Planes left now, and they BOTH pass the recommended noise limits with ease, thanks to sensible prop selection and size. One of my leccy models produces a far more irritating and louder noise than either of the Ics, due to a very high revving prop in close proximity to the trailing edge. Several electric models in our club are noisier than some ICs. I doubt that the end is in sight yet for IC - what is needed is an end to pilots who make no attempt to quieten things down properly. I for one would hate the day to arrive when my 90 4T Spitfire gets electrified and loses that inoffensive lovely sound as it comes low down the strip ready for another strafing run against jerry :)

[Stovton51]

That spitfire of yours sounds fantastic I like the ww2 warbirds I'm thinking of trying a P51 around 60inch with a four stroke looking around for a kit at the moment trouble is my runway is fairly small so flaps would be useful,don't know if there is a kit with flaps or even if they were fitted to 51's.I did the mick reeves spit years ago,fantastic plane and quick with a sixty.

[Tim Mackey]

I dont have flaps on my Spit, and she usually ends up on her nose at the far end of our rather short strip too ! I must get around to fitting some, trouble is she is getting a little overweight with all the toys I have been fitting - heavier duty retracts ( grass strip ) flashing cannons, and landing lights :)