The Serious Thread

[Matthew Lloyd]

Firstly, let's make sure this thread doesn't become a gloomy, health-and-safety-gone-mad, downbeat discussion.

Whilst battling with the 45-50mph blow on a Herefordshire hill today, my mind turned to lead-sleds, Jarts and fast pointy things doing 100mph.

Then, whilst chewing the fat over a cup of tea with a friend, he (not a flyer) said that he remembered hearing of a girl who was killed after a collision with a model aircraft back in 2003. I had never heard this story, and promised to have a look on the net when I got home. Here's the story.

I was of course horrified. Being hit by a foamie wing could be a nasty, being hit by a mouldie, especially ballasted up, doesn't bear thinking about. This story doesn't say what type of model it was - but that's not the point.

The story made me think that it wouldn't hurt for us to have a chat now and then about the responsibility that comes with flying our gliders, and to show that whilst we may yearn for that 'epic' session with our pointy machine, we must remember that, for all tense and purposes, what we fly are a short step away from guided missiles. Friends have commented on how 'quick that bloomin thing comes round' when I turn back towards the slope for a flypast.

Just a thought. Any comments or anything to add, anybody?

[Slopetrashuk]

Points have very little to do with it. Model aircraft are dangerous if used dangerously. The highest valued insurance claim for a model aircraft related accident in history remains with injuries sustained from a  free flight chuck glider accident.

Even a fully loaded slope lead sled is not as fast as the majority of powered models and only usually approaching a similar weight.

These critiscisms have also been levelled at Dynamic Soaring but the fact still remains that these sort of flights usually take place on secluded hillsides in extreme conditions away from most people not associated with the activity.

Most unlike the accident in the telegraph.

I've done my time chairing emergency BMFA safety committee's investigating deaths for the coroner ann in comparison even a badly flown slope soarer is still less likely to cause a problem than an average pilot with a power model on a typical club site.

I do however welcome the debate and offer an insight way back to my very first slope column On The Edge of  December 2003 when I wrote:

[Slopetrashuk]

 A piccy of one of the latest projects to emerge from the Ellison ‘Skunkworks’ appeared in the RCM&E letters column a few months back and has since then generated a good deal of interest. My Higgins Rodent is a rare bird indeed and turns heads whenever it appears, not least because it is a very extreme machine for high wind flight but also because of its unusual ‘stealthy’ lines and its very elongated nose . Many a local ‘rule quoter’ has expressed concern about the taper on the front and how this might be ‘illegal’ so I thought that a momentary clarification might be in order. Many years ago when the BMFA was known to everyone as the SMAE, the powers that be used the FAI’s own Sporting Code as a basis for its general safety guidelines. In this code was a competition rule relating to the nose radius of model aircraft which stipulated something in the order of:  ‘The minimum nose radius on all projections ahead of a propeller should not exceed 7.5mm when measured tangentially from all intersecting surfaces.’  In general for glider use this was transposed down to read ‘No needle noses’.Over the years this definition caused many a debate at quite high level within the BMFA as many couldn’t really see the point of the restriction (if you’ll excuse the pun). What is a needle nose? Sharp enough to prick your finger? Would anything less than 7.5mm radius impale you should you be unlucky enough to get in its way? Has there been some scientific calculation done to determine that a model nose is ‘safe’ at 7.6mm irrespective of mass and velocity? Is it measured tangentially in case you get a glancing blow?No, of course not. So is it ‘illegal’?Well, the above rule does still exist for competitive models in FAI events. I suppose a line has to be drawn somewhere. However the UK’s model flying governing body the BMFA, in the latest edition of its handbook (2003), has after the aforementioned years of debate, seen fit to remove this measurement and implement a much broader guideline. Note I use the word ‘guideline’ as the BMFA handbook has not now, nor has it ever, contained rules. The information within it is what the BMFA and legislative parties would consider to be best practice. Consequently a small radiused nose glider is not ‘illegal’ nor has it ever been so. The Rodent’s nose appears a little on the extreme side though and doubtless as it moves around the country some ‘official’ will come and measure it to prevent me from flying her up their slope. No matter, she really only comes out to play when the winds hit over 50mph so the slopes are generally bereft of others and unusually silent save for the sound of my manic laughter and the rip of the Rodent echoing through the valleys.

Andy

Whose models are still a long way from guided missiles.

[Matthew Lloyd]

Thank you for that Andy.

Please do not read my notes as a 'rage against lead sleds and pointy things'. I simply used such models as examples of machines that carry, perhaps, more responsibily than others. Not ones to be taken lightly, if you like.

All I wanted was to open a general chat about our responsibilities - especially as often an ideal site for flying is also ideal for walkers and those who 'come for the view'.

Sites for powered flying have rules and often have to ensure that relationships with surrounding landowners are maintained in order to continue thier use. I just thought that we would do well to remind ourselves, and newcomers to the slope, that flying slopeside, whilst loads of fun, should be taken seriously - and you can't really fly wherever you like - or can you? ...

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Matthew Lloyd]

Eric Bray wrote (see)

When it comes to the bottom line, the only rule is 

FLY SAFELY.

Absolutely - that's all I really wanted to do - remind us all, and newbies - to fly responsibly. I had no idea that there had been a fatal incident involving a third party, and it shocked me.

I was not making any judgement on any designs - besides, I LOVE those pointy things!

[Ultymate]

Matthew I think you'll find the "hetro" part of the male population all love those pointy things but we must be careful not to be severely moderated on . Some years back there was a bad accident at a club up here in N.Wales where a guy brain damaged his own grandchild, it was absolutely tragic, and needless to say he never flew again. Lets be careful out there !!

[Matthew Lloyd]

Ultymate wrote (see)

the male population all love those pointy things

I wasn't going to be the one point that out!

Would it be worth discussing any simple rules that a site may/should have? Being shot down by somebody flying just around the corner is a distinct possibility - are there any other issues that it would be worth drawing attention to? Landing etiquette? Model condition? Or perhaps we should just point new fliers to the BMFA and encourage flying with clubs?

One of the many virtues of slope soaring is it's openness and freedom, but with that come potential safety issues...

[Snorbitz]

I was looking for some footage of a Precedent T180 on you-tube just the other day when i stumbled across a guy who had gunned his T180 down what looked like his local park as the plane gathered speed his son (i pressume) came into shot.....my initial reaction was SH#T!!!......the lad started running and the pilot tried to get off the deck but luck/skill wasn't on his side that day and he hit this poor kid square in the legs.....needless to say that the resulting injuries looked pretty damn sore!!. Now with stupidity like this going on accidents can and will always happen...chances are he wasn't a member of a club and without insurance not that this would've saved this lads legs. Any of us with an ounce of common sense realise that what we do for fun is actually very dangerous especially in the wrong hands. I don't think that a 150cc, 8ft wingspan flying strimmer would be any less dangerous than most gliders in the wrong hands. As Eric so brilliantly puts it "you're still dead!" . We should always minimize the risks especially to others around us and make sure our models are fully airworthy. I've seen some models in the past that are nothing more than 15 year old plane shaped lumps of epoxy with some peices of balsa in between! Call me boring but I refuse to fly along side these people as they clearly have a blatent disregard for anyone else around them. There are thousads of us flying every week without incedent but sadly as is often the case the idiotic minority will i fear eventually spoil it for the rest of us. Be vigilant and if you see something you don't like or that may affect your fun in the future then do something very un-english and speak up, be it to you club rep or whoever. BE RESPONSIBLE!!

Other than that is it summer yet, i'm fed up of flying frozen?

[Gemma Jane]

Paul a review of fatal accidents involving model aircraft or associated equipment in recent years will show that the flyers were generally club members and one was an extremely experienced model pilot at world champion level. 

Unfortunately accidents happen, though of course I would not condone silly behaviour as outilned above the bottom line is any pursuit has its risks (climbing the stairs being a particularly risky activity if the death/injury statistics are anything to go by) and whatever we do we should at least try to mitigate the risks. I once hit my son with a model, I took the brunt of it by standing in the way  but it still went on to hit him despite the brief to stay behind me. I was not messing about  just inexperienced.

A good thread Mathew, it got me thinking about it all, we gave up flying foamies in parks as just too risky last year, unfortunately the days when people could be expected to see a model and apply some common sense are long gone and I found it too much to be thinking for other people all the time and worrying about the unlikely but possible consequences of an accident.

For the record the fatal accident on Dartford Heath involved an acro wot with the coroner concluding that  a major contributing cause was the tail-plane which had not be glued correctly, it failed in flight resulting in total loss of control of the model. I was visiting the area regularly at the time of the accident due to work. A terrible and tragic accident which ended model flying on the heath despite a very long history without a prior serious incident, I remember watching models flown there many times whilst conducting wildlife surveys as part of my professional life.

Just wanted to make it clear it is not only a daft minority involved who might take greater risks, even very experienced people can have accidents.

[Matthew Lloyd]

Gemma Fairchild wrote (see)

any pursuit has its risks

Spot on, Gemma. Now here's our chance to consider those risks and show how contributors to this forum are responsible fliers who take the necessary precautions.

[Snorbitz]

I couldn't agree more Gemma that accidents can happen to any of us no matter how much experience we have. My point was that its likely to be the daft minority who aren't club flyers who ultimately ruin it in the end. You can imagine the headlines in the papers about how it's easier to buy a model than it is to buy a gun yet its just as deadly bla bla bla. It really comes down to a question of responsibilty. Something we Brits are great at shouting about but when it comes to it not very good in backing up in a "its not my problem" or a "thats the way it is" kind of way. I would imagine that being club members those guys unlucky enough to be involved in the serious accidents were insured and all were sure their models were airworthy, at least they'd done everything they could/should.(Not having read the report you understand). As you say more people get hurt in stair related incedents but we still go up and down them every day.

[Chris C]

i have been hit, i was flying with my school history teacher (this incedennt was no fault of his) i ran after the plane to save me waiting until it landed (tut tut) then i looked up and saw something red comeing towards me, the next thing i rember was on the grass my baseball hat i was wareing had a hole in it the size the nose of the middle phase in it,  i lost a lenz from glasses and i had a real shiner i got a photo somewhere ill see if i can put on a pic,(if you want to see the plane click on my profile) i was flying the same week. i found that the tailplane rubber bands broke so thats why it came down maybe the wind helped i will never know people really took the mick at school and still do but iam glad iam alive it could have been worse. my main tip is stand next to the pilot, on the basis he will not fly the plane in to himself (and don't run after the areoplane)  

IT REALLY REALLY HURT

[Slopetrashuk]

Accidents lead to better understandings only if we retain the ability to learn from them.

http://www.bmfa.org/news/bulletins/bull2_99.html

http://www.bmfa.org/news/bulletins/bull2_00_systems.html

This was the work of the emergency safety committee I set up following the death of Adam Kirby (11) in 1999.  The model that hit Adam was a 1.20 powered patternship.

Also, as this is the slope forum, it might be worth noting that only one death I can recall involving a slope glider was the death of a hang glider pilot many years ago in Brighton(?). The Hang glider collapsed following a mid air collision with a WIK Salto and when the rectangular wing joiner box struck a cable under tension it severed it causing the hang glider to fold in the air and spin to the floor.

 Pauls comment above intimates that people not in a club are a 'daft minority' and I am sure this wasn't his intention. Slope fliers especially are not inclined to join clubs like power fliers do due to the varied sites used for the purpose. In my experience it is clubs that are the worst offenders and this is usually down to familiarity breeding contempt.

The death of Adam Kirby for instance was the result of a number of failings on the part of the club. A change to any one of those would have prevented the accident.

Conversely the death that prompted the thread was attributed to a small group of lone fliers.

It also remains that the biggest single insurance claim attibuted to model flying in the UK is still injuries sustained to a timekeeper by a free flight chuck glider!

I still feel safe with my lead sleds! Anybody standing watching is usually getting blown further to safety!

Andy

[Andy Anscombe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L5MmOuw_SE

at the BMFA Nats  2008 was safety consided there with the free flights ?????

I was wondering is it fun I suppose if you are aware of what is happening around you the anwser would be yes

[Slopetrashuk]

Chris C wrote (see)

my main tip is stand next to the pilot, on the basis he will not fly the plane in to himself

Mmm. I hope Timbo is making notes.........

[Slopetrashuk]

Andy Anscombe wrote (see)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L5MmOuw_SE

at the BMFA Nats  2008 was safety consided there with the free flights ?????

I was wondering is it fun I suppose if you are aware of what is happening around you the anwser would be yes

The nats footage takes place in the middle of an airfield at a private event. It always amazes me the number of people who stand in the middle of it complaining how dangerous it is.

GO AND SIT IN YOUR CARAVAN!!!!!!!

[Slopetrashuk]

See now 'he's' upped and moved it to the all things flying thread making my comment about the slope forum look stoooopid!

[Tim Mackey]

??? I aint moved nothing mate ! In fact I have only just stumbled across the thread- been busy DIY ing for the last few days

[Slopetrashuk]

It'll be that bank manager then!

[Matthew Lloyd]

It too took me a while to figure where this thread had gone - it started out as a slope thread as, at first, I thought flying off the slope created more opportunities for accidents.

Quite rightly, this thread was moved in order to open up the debate to all fliersof all types of models.

What I thought we could all do with was a chance to remind ourselves that our models can hurt, and even worse - kill. Whilst we chat about how much fun we have, and how spectacular 'that mid air' was, we should remain responsible and careful modellers.

This goes beyond making sure you don't lose your model due to a dodgy switch harness. Someone recently related to me how they had to dig thier pride and joy out of the ground after it went in and buried itself up to the wing - and I was reminded how my Gangster 52 did just the same some 20 years ago - and we never worked out the cause of that one. No one was hurt, but that was, in the main, because I was in Welsh wilderness flying with Wrexham MAC.

Suffice to say I am going to invest in a battery checker, and will be double-checking everything in future.

[Ultymate]

Mathew if as you say you're going to invest in a battery checker there are several excellent ones around now that actually check your batteries under a variable applied load, almost a necessity if your're using lipos. In all honesty amazed to hear you admit not having one already

[Matthew Lloyd]

Yes indeed - and I bet I'm not the only one.

And nobody had such things back in my Wrexham MAC days...

[Lee Morgan]

Well I have just stumbled upon this thread and read with interest, The models never seem to be the problem , I have spent many a windy day on the slopes flying with a multitude of different pilots inc Timbo and Andy E and never felt unsafe or at any sort of risk, Yet occationally I fly with a very good pilot on my local site and feel very intimidated, He doesn't fly anything pointy, no need to measure the nose cos its a large scale glider. Whilst flying on more than one occation this person has flown over my head ( i am flying at this point so not looking at what hes doing to take evasive action) nearly taking my TX airial with it. So as I said its not how pointy the model is or even how fast it is, but how it is flown and where. Fly have fun but be safe , thats what I do anyway.

Lee 

[Tom Foreman]

I managed to dive out of the way when a dead stick Xtra Wot ploughed into our pits at the club last year, my poor Dualsky Extra was not so lucky, the Xtra Wot is pretty indestructable and was being flown by one of our better pilots, you should see what the lesser guys get up to! Still he paid for the damage, I am a bit more careful where I set my pits up now!

Back in the day when I was a wee whipper snapper and I flew sloper soarers up Parlick, in Lancashire 'heads' used to get shouted a few times, usually by me when the landing zone was over shot!

Tom