Poly C

[John Horsfield]

Also what is the exact product you buy from wickes? there are a couple of different varnishes on their web site.

[Erfolg]

John

 

I have just realised that I have also Humbrol Enameled a model, as well

 

 

Z-Poxy is an epoxy resin marketed by "Pacer", I have used it on external skinning of wings, witha little work it is possible to get a glass smooth finish. It is good stuff, but care is required to ensure that there is not an excessive weight build up.

 

As far as I can tell, weight build up seems less likely with these WB products. 

The wing is actually just tissue over veneer. The body is a mixture of Balsa, ply and a lot of blue foam, which is covered with, glass cloth. If I had known that i was going to discuss the merits of this process i would have put far more effort into the finishing process.

 

The Wickes I have used is Interior Varnish, clear gloss,, the can has two purple, bands, the blurb tells you it is water based. I have also used their floor finish, satin. I could not tell the difference in use or result. All have been the result of left over house building materials.

 

The version from B&Q seems to give the same results. Although I have not seen the can.

 

One lesson is that "Blue Foam" benfits from a coat, as a primer, which can then be cut back, to provide a satin smooth finish that does not swell, slightly.

 

Part of the reason i have gone for ink, is that I have it. In rectospect, in principal it is the same as staining the wood, with a propriety wood stain t, to provide a look which hides what it really is.

 

These wing tips were done with a mixture of translucent and solid ink, mainly because I could not get all the pigment of rfom the previous film.

and I wanted a quick finsh, that is durable, always the optimist.

 

Erfolg

Edited By Erfolg on 08/06/2009 16:18:46

[andy watson]

The RC world website does raise the issue of adding pigment to poly C.  It should work, but also says they haven't actually tried it.

 

The sealer you need is something called sanding sealer.  I do like the idea of adding an extra layer of poly C after painting to act as a varnish.  I might well steal that!

[Terence Lynock]

Just a thought but could you use Dylon? it is a concentrated dye and dissolves in water, available in a mass of colours and quite cheap,

 

regards,      Terry

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Reno Racer]

Has anyone tried the water based polyurathane floor clear varnish directly onto foam to give it a hardend surface layer, without having to repaint???

 

I'm thinking of ways of protecting my Lander Hunter wihout glassing and repainting.

 

[Brian Parker]

Worked OK for me , I also used a layer tissue on the leading edge for extra protection.

[Erfolg]

For those in the UK, "Screwfix" now stock

 

Ronseal, Diamond Hard Floor Varnish, at £33.27 for 2.5l. States touch dry 30mins.

 

B&Q are charginging £40 for the same stuff.

 

Although the varnish is removed from equipment, floor and tools with water before drying, it still has about 30% more VOC than their Eco range.

 

Unfortuantly I have just finished a varnishing job, so have not as yet had the oppurtunity to try the left overs, at £33 still expensive, yet a lot better than £50.

 

Erfolg

 

 

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Tim Mackey]

PS got your "minty"  Fox here waiting for you .....

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 26/07/2009 11:28:25

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[andy watson]

If the Ronseal diamod is the same stuff at £40 for 2.5L then what is the point?  The poly C stuff is £10 for 500ml.

 

Is the small price premium worth paying for something that MIGHT not work as well, and you need to buy and store in advance (2.5L should be enough to cover roughly 5 planes worth)

 

FYI I was told the Ronseal diamond was the same, but I have no actual experience.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Brian Parker]

I've used both Poly-c and B&Qs own brand.
 Observation....

 The Poly-c appears to be harder of the two when dry, it flows and fills better leaving a smoother surface with less brush marks. However, Ive only used the B&Q once and the ambient temperature was a lot hotter than normal.

 So not a very objective test.

 But for me, due to the relative small difference in price, I'll use Poly-c in future.

[Erfolg]

For me there are a number of issues.

 

a) My nearest proper model shop is about 20 miles away, so a minimum of 40 miles. They may not have poly C.

b) The second is cost. If I must go or buy mail order, there will be a cost penalty. I would guess +£5. If I can get the same or a similar product around the corner at either a DIY centre, Screwfix (depot about 3 miles away, yet near to ASDA, so go when shopping often).

c) Is time, I do not want or can afford to spend half a day, going to buy something. That is unless the wife wants it.

 

As for comparrisons, particularly of performance, these are notoriusly fraught with difficulty and prejudice.

 

So my point is Poly C is not convienant for me. Get into B&Q etc. at the right price and I will use it. Until then I will keep using all the left overs from jobs I do.  Personally i have not seen much difference if any with the varnishes I have used, although Epoxy laminating resin produces a better finish, with a lot more work, in cutting back etc..

 

What was interesting about Wickes WB. I recently had my flying wing crash, which is covered in glass cloth and WB Wickes Varnish. The glass skin remained firmly attached to the ply and balsa (and previously blue foam), it was the ply, balsa that fractured.  It was supprisingly easy to repair, not leaving much evidence of the crash. Believe me, I do not waste to much time on repairs, certainly I never seek to or could emulate the totally invisible repairs of the patient and skilled. If my repairs are good, it is the materials that have saved the day.

 

Again, I have no issues with poly C or any one elses WB Varnish. I have found a similar situation with branded PVA wood glues, as I have now done wth polyuretane glues having used Enkel Eich, Woodmate, Gorrilla, Geocel Joiners mate. They all do what they say on the tin (or plasic bottlke in this case).

 

Erfolg

[Grahamd]

Posted by Erfolg on 04/06/2009 09:15:02:

Phil

 

It seems I am wrong in that Wickes and Poly C is essentially the same stuff.

 

I am still unable to find the original artical, that a reference was made to Poly C. Yet a conversation on the telephone with a mate, who is a floor fitter revealed that approx. 2 years ago, I was after a sample of a product made by Ronseal.

 

The product at that time cost approx £55 per 5l plastic container. Apparently it was called "Contractor Quick Cure". At that time he had not used. So there was no left overs available. He says that the range has widened now, For heavy traffic areas you can buy an hardener, or a high traffic version. It is still dear.

 

 

Hmm, as the author of the original article in Model World (wish I'd called it something else) maybe I should clarify a few facts?

The original driving force for me was to find something similar to epoxy/G-cloth covering that was clean and easy to apply (Poly-c fits this well). I experimented with dozens of varnishes and epoxies etc before trawling the then rather limited internet, and in desperation called Ronseal (uk). After many calls I was put through to their techy dept, who (lucky for me), knew an ex employee who had done similar to a model glider, many years earlier. Some days later the same techy guys called me back to tell me they had discovered which of their products was used and why. The product was called "Ronseal Floorseal XL", and a 1 gallon sample was sent to me foc (still got most of it).

 

I then spent almost a year testing its adhesive and strength properties against dozens of other "Similar" off the shelf products, but never found one that came even close.

 

I wrote the artical for MW and almost a year past before the article was published. The article was a great hit with everyone wanting to get hold of the stuff I jokingly called poly-c. When I made some calls to Ronseal, due to the elapse in time, the product was now only available via pallet drops of 100 x 1 gallon botles , and Ronseal complained to me about the number of phone calls they were now geting asking for 250mls or less...

 

Not being in a situation where I wanted to purchase a 100 gallons of the stuff, I passed the details to Rc World, who did buy a pallet load, and decant it into smaller bottles. (oh and by the way I got NOTHING, NADA from Rc World for this, and even had to write the instructions on their web site

 

Do I regret any of it, no, this hobby is about sharing (I hope) and thats what I have done, and the reward is reading how many people have used it over the last few years (too many, tooo quick).

 

Grahamd

 

Edited By Grahamd on 08/04/2010 13:25:26

[Erfolg]

Graham

 

The history is very interesting.

 

It does beg the question though what is the fundamental difference between "Ronseal Floorseal" and the other water based varnishes for floor finishing.

 

Is it the hardness? or something else.

 

I have now purchased "Ronseal Diamond Hard" @ £33 for 2.5l. So far for finishing wood, not models, it does not seem very different. The price is not very different from the 1L unit price of other brands, other than the minimum quantity. I have always liked Ronseal products, but it could be a prejudice rather than a quantifiable set of attributes. I think i do not worry that the product could be substandard as say a "DIY" own brand product.

 

Erfolg 

[Bob Cotsford]

a quick question - has anybody tried colouring Poly-C?  The site suggests using powder paints (Poster Paint?), but as the local arty shop only had premixed poster paint I gave it a miss.  I was thinking about using artist's acrylic paints, as they are high density and water soluble.

 

edit - I should have read back a bit further for the colouring question! 

I've just put a sealing coat on 1/16" sheet on my Eros fuselage, and it hasn't caused any noticeable bulging between formers.  What it has done is make it much more ding resistant while I'm fettling it.

Next up will be covering with 1/2oz glass cloth, guess I'll be the guinea-pig with the acrylic paints then!

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 08/04/2010 16:45:40

[Grahamd]

Posted by Erfolg on 08/04/2010 14:31:11:

Graham

 

The history is very interesting.

 

It does beg the question though what is the fundamental difference between "Ronseal Floorseal" and the other water based varnishes for floor finishing.

 

Is it the hardness? or something else.

 

 

 

Ronseal Floor XL was developed for shopping mall wooden floors, where traffic is VERY heavy and the wood needs to take shoes, buggies, walking sticks and every thing else you can imagine, or would rather not

Ronseal Diamond is a home use varnish, the real test I found was over time, although a quick test showed you could rip the covering off the wood, as it was not designed to bond into the wood like floorseal XL does. Hence Poly-c can warp wood, varnish is more fogiving as it does not penetrate to the same level (molecular).

The real problem now is the silly EU rules over chemicals, hence everything is becoming harder to get and more expensive, and more and more chemicals are being banned in the UK.

[Erfolg]

Bob

 

I have never tried to colour the varnish.

 

I have however used the concept that many car based systems use. That is to colour the wood, directly. I used airbrushing/artists ink. The amount of ink required is almost nothing. The initial finish is dead flat. However after covering with glass fine cloth, the final finish is vibrant colour, the gloss effect is dependant on the level of finish achieved with your top coat.

 

Graham

 

To date I have found it very difficult to strip back the cloth after attaching with water based varnish. In the past I have used the epoxy glass method. The finish which I achieved by this method, was a very high gloss. That is after an incredible amount of work. However the attachment of the glass cloth seems at a subjective level no better. From this I have concluded that the difference is not worth quantifying, in that epoxy glass cloth are similar enough to varnish glass cloth.

 

My experience to date suggests to me I would not be prepared to "die in a ditch" to defend any of the products I am aware of, that is to date.

 

Being really honest, I despair of modellers who demand the best, when they cannot even quantify which attributes make something the best, and that is without even being able to produce quantifiable data. I am even more distressed when the best, just happens to be "reassuringly expensive" or "look at the label".

 

The irony is, I still feel slightly happier with Ronseal products, for no really good reason.

 

Erfolg

 

 

[Grahamd]

Erfolg, I know your pain, and if only I had a penny for every model covered with poly-c

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Bob Cotsford]

I've just done a test piece with 1oz cloth, and 2 pea size blobs of yellow acrylic in an egg-cup full of poly-c applied straight onto bare 1/8" sheet.

The first coat stuck the glass cloth down pretty tightly with none of the lifting I've experienced with glass/epoxy.  The appearance after one coat was like first coat doped nylon - matt finish with the grain showing through.  The second coat filled the most of the depth of the weave, and the third is starting to give a gloss finish.  the wood grain is still showing through, but the colour density looks pretty even.  Just what I'm after, though I could probably halve the amount of paint in the mix.

When I tried pulling the glass away after the first coat it had only just become dry to the touch and It was already stuck quite firmly, though the Poly-C 'glue' separated without pulling up the wood grain.  I'll try again after giving it a few hours to really set.

I'm impressed!

 

Oh yes, the unsupported wood did warp across the grain, no big surprise there then!

 

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 08/04/2010 20:38:23

[Erfolg]

Phil

 

A really nice effect for say a glider, or may be a vintage type, where the underlying wood, structure, is to be seen, is to use transparent artists ink, which can be vignetted or plain finish. It really can work!

 

 

[Erfolg]

Whilst in the garage working on my canopy moulding sealant gun, I started thinking about Poly C, Water based varnish and a 2l laminating Epoxy Resin over 15 years old. Must throw out I thought.

 

Much of the discussions of has focused on how good it is (poly C) relative to say Epoxy.

 

It did strike me the need for each individual compose a set of criteria that makes a product useful to me.

 

I my case, I skin fuselages and wings with surface glass cloth.

 

a) I want a system which provides a good finish.

b) I want an easy system to apply.

c) The finish should be durable.

d) Low cost is better than high cost.

e) Obtaining materials need to simple

f) I prefer to do things in the house

g) I do not want hazardous wastes to dispose of

h) A given for anything I do, and should not need stating, It must not be harmful/hazardous to my health or my family. Preferably without taking precautions.

 

On this basis Epoxy is now, out, out, out, unless structural properties are required.

 

The shelf live of WBV is long. I just rinse brushes in soap and water.

 

The WVP dies within an hour.

 

Now regarding the durability of WVP, most will take domestic traffic, personally try to avoid walking on my models (although it has been done), so absolute hardness is not necessary, but could be an issue, if wanting to cut back the third coat. If very hard, cutting back can be an issue.

 

Surprisingly to me, most are moisture resistant, but not generally suitable for out door use. Again, rain and me do not normally agree, certainly not for flying. 

 

When comparing the rest, I am not sure, that the differences between any of the "water based varnishes" is worth arguing about. As to date all I have used are sufficiently similar, as not to be worth a "tinkers curse" or what ever is politically acceptable today.

 

So in my case I will continue to purchase, what ever can be obtained from, Screwfix, Wickes, B&Q and Homebase etc. As they all are convenient and much the same cost per litre.

 

Any way I am going out now to fly, the models that is!

 

Erfolg