MattyB

Posted by David Ashby - RCME on 25/01/2018 21:59:24: ...all 20-seconds of it... oh well... Often the way with TV. I am sure if it had been a better day here might have been more footage, but having talked to Jim about it by the time Victoria and the TV crew arrived the wind had subsided and there was next to no lift available. Such is life! Edited By MattyB on 26/01/2018 16:01:03

Posted by Percy Verance on 24/01/2018 19:40:36: But Geoff, is it really​ as expensive as it seems? If you buy one, and it gives you excellent service for 15 or 20 years with minimum issues, then maybe it's not as bad as all that......... Like the Mercedes ad points out, quality doesn't cost you, it pays you. Sorry to disappoint, but consumer tech moves so fast now and people are conditioned (rightly or wrongly) to change their kit regularly; almost no-one wants to "invest" in something expensive based on it lasting for 15-20 years. This is part of FrSky's success - physical quality is good enough to last 5-7 years, but it's cheap and gets regular functionality upgrades and bug fixes over time. The "buy once, hold 20 years" model is also commercially problematic for the supplier - the only way it can be supported is through very expensive TXs and supporting kit (RXs, telemetry sensors etc), and there are only so many people prepared to pay for those. Mx seem to have mastered this in the (though not UK), but personally I'd be very wary of investing in their TXs at this point given what has happened to JR and Hitec in recent times - I'd rather spend less on a non-premium set that I can afford to change if they were to cease to exist.

Posted by Andy48 on 24/01/2018 19:36:12: Posted by Percy Verance on 24/01/2018 18:32:31: It might surprise some folk to discover that Open Tx was around 25+ years ago, but oddly most seemed to avoid the particular brand of radio offering it it back then........ Funny how times change. It would surprise me greatly. OpenTX requires a transmitter with a computer in it and I doubt there were any/many around in the early 1990s that were within most peoples price bracket. Around that time I had a new fileserver, with just 20Mb of memory! Secondly OpenTX is a developmental control system, and even if it was around 25 years ago, it would bear no relation to the present version of OpenTX. +1. OpenTX is conceptually similar to the Mpx firmware present in TXs like the 3030 and 4000 and I have no doubt the OpenTX team were in part influenced by it. However the code was definitely not ported - the main reason Mpx did not progress the firmware was because they were unable to do so (the programmer died in a car crash and it was insufficiently documented for anyone else to move it forward). As a result they had to go another route (boosting the functionality of the Evo firmware) which resulted in a perhaps more accessible but less flexible and feature rich result.

Posted by Cuban8 on 22/01/2018 21:48:04: Posted by john stones 1 on 22/01/2018 17:34:03: O.P sounds a bit political to me. Made me laugh out loud. From what I've been reading elsewhere since my OP, the expectation is that the depreciation on some electric vehicles is likely to be just as severe as with petrol/diesel - and currently (sorry) a used Nissan Leaf of about six years old can be picked up for around the £6K mark. So at about ten years old it'll probably be only worth a half or a third again. Not exactly 'old banger' money but within the reach of most people. Once 'upgrade fever' takes a hold, used prices will be guaranteed to tumble. Apparently it's much, much worse than that - 72% depreciation in year 1 according to WhatCar! Ouch. Looking at dealer prices that may still be a bit pessimistic, but you'd still have to be bonkers to buy a new one, hence why we have delayed replacement of my wife's car until there are new model Leafs available in the used market in ~18 months. Only the Zoe, Renault's EV, is worse. Edited By MattyB on 23/01/2018 01:16:06

Beware there are lots of fake Imax B6s out there of variable quality. It might be fine, or it might not. As someone who charges large batteries in parallel I want something I can trust, so personally I would not use one unless I was absolutely certain it was the genuine article.

Way back in the distant past (well on page 1 actually but you get the picture!) the OP posted a question about depreciation of EVs... Posted by Cuban8 on 21/01/2018 11:48:05: Something occurred to me a while back concerning all the talk about how electric cars will replace petrol and diesel in the near future. At present, a conventional petrol or diesel car will depreciate considerably to a point at which those that are not particularly well off financially will be able to afford to buy a cheap but decent second hand vehicle for work, family transport etc. For instance, a standard new Ford Focus or similar is around the fifteen grand mark, but a well maintained and perfectly serviceable used example that could be ten years old will only be around three thousand pounds, possibly much less and hence within the budget of those of modest means. My concern is that will electric vehicles depreciate in value to the same extent as current petrol/diesel, thus bringing them within the budget of those with only a couple of grand or just a few hundred quid to spend? Will the cost of a replacement battery render an old electric car just fit for the scrap heap or only good for a hopelessly short range between charges? Will we eventually be cutting off a whole section of society from owning the examples of practical and relatively inexpensive personal transport that's available today? ...so a point on this. I was (maybe still am) very interested in an EV for our second car as a runabout, but found it's very hard to make the numbers work on a new one. Why? Look at the depreciation rates on current EVs like the Leaf; they are absolutely hideous! 2 year old cars that went for £25-30k can be had for around £6-7k plus a £50 a month battery lease. No private buyer can afford to take that kind of hit, it squishes any financial advantages associated with reduced running costs. Why is this? Well apparently many consumers are worried about long term battery life and the possibility there will be a leap forward in battery technology in the short term that renders current models obsolete overnight. Result - people are scared to buy a secondhand one, despite the fact there are Leafs being used as Taxis with 150k on the odometer and still 75% battery capacity or better. My conclusion? Well clearly buying any of the "normal" EVs (i.e. not Teslas!) new is not easy to justify on a financial basis unless you drive in a relatively unusual way i.e. high mileages made up of lots of short-medium range trips. However buying a secondhand 18-24 month old Leaf and running it for 3 years might be a pretty affordable form of motoring providing you don't do long trips with any frequency; certainly fine as a second car. In 3 years EVs and their financials could be a very different proposition, who knows... Edited By MattyB on 22/01/2018 16:56:01

Posted by David Davis on 19/01/2018 10:33:59: I've just tried the charger using the van's battery as a source of electricity. Same problem. DB I don't think that the age of the LiPos is the problem. I get the same problem with the brand new Sigma 3300 LiPos which I bought earlier in the week but I will take your tip and have some of the batteries charged by my pal Gerard this afternoon. I have been looking at replacing the charger since this problem first occurred. This one appeals at the price **LINK** but I am open to suggestions. I don't think I'll ever use more than a 6S LiPo. I second the poster above - given reading the manual has not helped so far get the batteries you have onto a known good charger and check their status. If they are ok you know it's the charger - bin it, it is not worth the risk of operating in it's current state. Re: a new charger, I strongly suggest you go with a brand that is well supported and has a long track record of success. The Junsi iCharger range have this and are relatively affordable - I still have a 106b+ that is going strong after 8 years of use. The other advantage is that it's 250W, allowing you to get into parallel charging if you wish to go that route. Alternatively HK do rebadged iChargers as their Reaktor range, and all the people I know with them seem happy. Having said that they seem to have dropped in price recently down to "too good to be true" levels, so I would tend to stick with iCharger in case HK have started sourcing them from another lower cost provider. YMMV. Anyway, pair a quality charger with a long record in the marketplace with a converted server power supply and you have a reliable setup you can trust that will give many years of safe, efficient service. IMO this is a far better solution than buying cheap chargers repeatedly every year or two.

Posted by Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 04/01/2018 12:10:51: **LINK** Already discussed at length here. The key question for current users is whether or not they have transferred the IP/brands to their former partner Konishi Mokel Co Ltd in such a way that they cannot be recovered by the administrators. If they have there is no reason to suppose that production and development of new products will not continue, at least for now. If not all bets are off and anything could happen - apparently there are pending lawsuits on this...

Here is a copy of the announcement detailing the end of the agreement between JR and HH in the US in 2016.

No, HH provided additional distribution and delivered the support on behalf of JR Americas, but that relationship ceased some time ago.

If that were easily possible I’m sure they would have done it a long time ago and released an Aurora 14 with a £200 price hike. I know their original protocol was never designed to go beyond 9ch though, so it may be that the transmission hardware does not have the capability to be upgraded. Either way, to get a 14ch to prototype stage then shelve it must have been a big investment write-off.

Indeed, I did not see that part on pg 1 of the thread initially - here is the link. What that means for future product development though is unclear - newcomers will not want to invest in a brand with such an uncertain future.... Edited By MattyB on 30/12/2017 15:42:55

Sadly it appears a oft heard rumour is now coming true... JR Propo have very recently declared bankruptcy in Japan, with debts of ~$40m. Perhaps bits of their business will be picked up and retained a la Graupner, but it is still a sad day for a once great name in RC. Extract from the Flying Giants posting... Sadly previous rumours have proved to be true. Formal bankruptcy was filed for in Osaka Japan on 26th December: Quote: Japan Remote Control Co., Ltd. (Capital 3,600,000 yen, Higashi Osaka-shi Eiwa 2-2-12, Registration side = 392 Shirakibucho-cho Matsusaka city, Mr. Akiko Ezaki and 2 others). On the day of December 26 Osaka District Court received a decision to commence bankruptcy proceedings. Link to the announcement (in Japanese): **LINK** How or if this impacts on the RC-Depot organisation that's currently distributing JR brand products I've no idea. I'd have thought that the JR brand name and their intellectual property would be tied in with the bankruptcy dealings somehow? Edited By MattyB on 30/12/2017 15:34:04 Edited By MattyB on 30/12/2017 15:38:51

Posted by David Ovenden on 30/12/2017 15:06:19: JR have not had a happy time of late, BUT manufacture of much of range is now happening and DMSS receivers, XG transmitters and some servos are now available. They even have "new" receivers about to launch. These can pair up with existing 6ch and 8ch rx to give 12 or 16 PWM outputs plus dual redundancy I belive. So they re not dead yet! Sadly it appears JR Propo have very recently declared bankruptcy in Japan, meaning the recent deliveries may only have represented a stay of execution. Perhaps bits of their business will be picked up and retained a la Graupner, but it is still a sad day for a once great name in RC. Edited By MattyB on 30/12/2017 15:22:38

It certainly is a changed market compared to 18 months ago. Spektrum seem to have effectively deserted Europe with their much reduced distribution network, hiked prices and service troubles (though at least there is a uk service facility again now). As a result around me many Spek devotees are looking elsewhere, with most going to FrSky. JR appear to be in dire straights (their RC business at least), and now we have Hitec effectively withdrawing from TXs (whether they continue to offer the Flash and Aurora is effectively irrelevant given they’ve stated there will be no new sets, so no new customers are going to go with them). I guess in this “new world” it is FrSky and Spek who will be the mainstream choices for beginner and intermediate sets, with Futaba and Jeti taking the majority of the top end. I would like to see Graupner become more popular - their sets are sensibly species with good telemetry integration - but I am not sure they will have the marketing or R&D budgets to keep up. Edited By MattyB on 30/12/2017 14:44:16

Posted by MattyB on 28/12/2017 17:15:35: For future reference - Hitec confirm in Dec 2017 that they have shelved all future TX development and the 14 and 16ch prototypes will not be brought to market... “...We have been testing new beta versions of our 14 and 16 channel transmitters for the past year or so and I personally have been flying on them in my own personal airplanes, they are not vaporware as they exist and are functional- the 14ch itself was ready to roll into production and start distribution ASAP pending a couple small software bugs. The 16ch was nearly complete as well. Over the summer this past year it was decided to NOT bring either one of these transmitters to market based upon worldwide market conditions and the associated high cost to produce, market, and support the product. It is with a heavy heart that we officially announce the cancellation of our new 14 and 16 channel transmitters, the projects have been shelved indefinitely. We apologize to everyone about broken promises to introducing new transmitters but transmitters have not proven to be our strongest point. Our current line of transmitters will still be produced and supported, and our servo technology is always ever expanding with new innovations around every corner.”

Yes, that’s partially correct - the new 14 and 16ch TXs have been shelved, but the current sets remain available at this time. See this thread for full details including the post from the Hitec rep on RCGroups... Edited By MattyB on 30/12/2017 11:38:25

Yes, that is what I linked to and reproduced in the post above on 28th Dec.

Posted by Stuart Z on 28/12/2017 20:31:06: Posted by tigerman on 28/12/2017 20:21:53: This is very interesting but It has left me totally confused (that is not hard to do!)I used to charge my lipo to fully charged after my days flying and left them fully charge ready to go the next time I went flying but was told it was not a good practice and you should leave the batteries in storage mode and charge them up just before you go flying So what is the best leave them in storage mode or leave them fully charged.I must admit that when I left them fully charged up ready to go .I had no problem and might go back to that after reading this thread I agree, I don’t use my lipo’s very often, often months go by. They are up to 3 years old in some cases and get charged back to storage levels and have no signs of puffiness at all, (3S 2200mah) -however, I’m wondering if that is the correct procedure. I store them in a Bat Safe to reduce my concerns about them and only charge at 1 amp. Not knowing much about lipo’s, this thread has confused me a lot. Seems glow motors are much easier and safer and less confusing! There is no need to be confused. Charging lipo packs to 3.8-3.9V/cell is unequivocally the safest way to store them (there is far less energy in the cell in this state in the event that something does go wrong and a fire starts). There are lots of sources that provide an explanation and proof of this, including videos of people putting nails through packs that are fully charged (explosive, not recommended!) and storage charged (normally nothing more than some mild fizzing and a bit of smoke). Re: degradation at elevated SOC, again this is a well researched phenomenon and there are lots of sources online that explain the science behind it - I linked a couple earlier in this thread, but a quick Google will unearth many more. If you don't believe me visit the RCGroups batteries and chargers forum where the world experts on the handling of lipos for optimum life and performance in RC tend to post; some have conducted testing across hundreds of packs and thousands of cycles using controlled testing methodologies to ensure results are fair and comparable. There is a good sticky thread on Lipo storage there with multiple examples and lots of questions answered which is well worth a read. At the end of the day it is up to you to decide how to treat your batteries. However, before you decide it is worth critically evaluating the opinions being expessed and asking yourself which are backed up by credible scientific data. We can all "observe" the performance and cycle life of our own packs (including me!), but ultimately the sample sizes and number of cycles we are putting on our packs as individuals are very low, so our personal experience is not necessarily a true reflection of what is going on. Most critically few (if any) of the other variables that affect long term pack health will have been controlled, so comparing one persons results with those of another are unlikely to result in an apples with apples comparison. This is why I put far more credence on the research done in academia and by the battery industry in general than online forum threads, though some of the large scale testing threads on RCGroups have been very carefully conducted and can give some excellent insights. Edited By MattyB on 30/12/2017 03:00:08

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 28/12/2017 20:46:33: Posted by tigerman on 28/12/2017 20:35:03: Yes I am going back to leaving them fully charged and ready to go .Makes it more convenient when you want to go flying and not have wait hours waiting for your lipo to charge up   Or you can get up at 4 am and start charging from storage level. ...or just get a good server PSU, high capacity charger and parallel board and charge all the batteries you need for an afternoon in ~1hr as I do. Edited By MattyB on 30/12/2017 02:22:07

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 28/12/2017 20:30:02: If my garage hasn't burned to the ground by then I'll let you know in Spring 2018 as all my batteries are currently stored fully charged and out in the cold . I suspect that over discharging them by ignoring the flight timer has killed more of my LiPos than has storing them fully charged. Just because they have not experienced a catastrophic failure does not mean you have not reduced their capacity and/or ability to deliver current by long term storage at elevated SOC. You would need a comparative test against a control pack to show that. You are right that over discharging is more damaging to a pack in terms of rapid degradation, but this is easily avoided by employing good practices (use of telemetry and timers etc).

Posted by Brian Cooper on 28/12/2017 19:52:06: My Lipos are subjected to some serious abuse. High demands are put on them in EDF jets and other high performance models. They get no mercy, but the batteries have high "C" ratings and they generally cope quite well. Whilst I appreciate the perceived wisdom of putting Lipos into storage mode, the fact remains that they die fairly rapidly if this is done. It is not just me, others have observed the same result. Once again, please cite some actual sources that support this observation with a plausible scientific explanation for it, otherwise it is just confusing supposition.

For future reference - Hitec confirm in Dec 2017 that they have shelved all future TX development and the 14 and 16ch prototypes will not be brought to market... “...We have been testing new beta versions of our 14 and 16 channel transmitters for the past year or so and I personally have been flying on them in my own personal airplanes, they are not vaporware as they exist and are functional- the 14ch itself was ready to roll into production and start distribution ASAP pending a couple small software bugs. The 16ch was nearly complete as well. Over the summer this past year it was decided to NOT bring either one of these transmitters to market based upon worldwide market conditions and the associated high cost to produce, market, and support the product. It is with a heavy heart that we officially announce the cancellation of our new 14 and 16 channel transmitters, the projects have been shelved indefinitely. We apologize to everyone about broken promises to introducing new transmitters but transmitters have not proven to be our strongest point. Our current line of transmitters will still be produced and supported, and our servo technology is always ever expanding with new innovations around every corner.”

PS - The other important point about storing at full charge is the safety issue. Should an internal short occur through dendrite growth or the pack be damaged by an impact there is a huge amount of energy to be dissipated in the resulting fire, enough to self sustain it for many minutes. By contrast a pack stored at 3.8-3.9V/cell will merely fizz a and produce a small amount of smoke even if severely damaged.

Posted by Brian Cooper on 28/12/2017 12:33:42: Matty, My observations are not meaningless. No, they are not controlled tests in laboratory conditions but REAL observations collected over a number of years in REAL, everyday conditions. In other words, in the REAL world. It seems that once a Lipo has been charged to 100% from new, they don't like going back to storage mode afterwards. The results may well be different to what the battery manufacturers are recommending but I can only go on personal experience. But hey, it's a free country and people are at liberty to keep their Lipos however they choose. I eagerly await your citation of sources that back up these views... My observations over ~10 years of Lipo use are exactly opposite to yours. All of my powertrains are low stress (I normally tune them to a max discharge rate of 20C and don’t have any EDFs; the only exception is my EFXtra which pulls about 27C at full throttle from memory), and all my packs are stored at 3.8-3.9V/cell. All charging is at a max of 2C (normally in parallel), all charge/discharge cycles are logged and I also check internal resistance periodically. Beyond the normal (very slow) degradation of capacity associated with lipos going through hundreds of cycles I have seen zero packs that have exhibited the characteristics you state. Many of my packs have done 500 cycles plus, with a couple approaching 800. The only exceptions were a couple of HK lipos that arrived DOA, and the very first 3 3S 2200s I ever had which (you guessed it) were charged to full after every use before I knew better. The result? One just about made it to 100 cycles, the others died after 60-70. Luckily a fairly cheap lesson in battery care, and one that has saved me huge amounts given I’ve since moved up to large 6S packs. Edited By MattyB on 28/12/2017 15:01:45