July 2012 issue feedback

[Tony Jones]

Posted by leccyflyer on 06/06/2012 11:26:27:

Having just read Bertie's missive and particularly the bit referred to about children, it;s glaringly obvious that the vision of today;s youth is not tempered by actually having any real contact with them. Those who do actually encounter the younger members of society, rather than just lapping up the mythology and hype, will have noticed as ever, that youth includes a wide spread of youngsters with different interests, talents and abilities.

Seems to me that there are two overlapping issues here. One, the nature of modern childhood; second, issues about aeromodelling specifically.

Citing exceptions to the rule does not invalidate accurate generalisations. I'm an old fart but do have contact with children of the grandchildren age group (5 - 15) through my friends -although I don't have any myself. A disturbingly large number - but not all, of course - have spent a good deal of of their childhoods in their bedrooms playing with the latest games console or whatever. One or two exhibit distinct signs of latent agrophobia. Very few have ever climbed a tree, gone exploring in the woods or built a hide. And they have no idea what that superb educational device the soapbox buggy even is! I think the general consensus of opinion is that this is 'not a good thing'. I think it fair to say that t the upcoming generation do not generally have the practical skills as the one before.

Getting kids that have become accustomed to the instant gratification delivered by many modern consumer products interested in aeromodelling isn't going to be achieved by telling them that they must spend several hours building a plane by cutting out bits of balsa wood and sticking them together - and if they don't get it right, it won't fly.

But an RTF foamie that can be flown on the afternoon of the day it is bought may well get their attention. And for some, it might be the first step on the aeromodelling ladder and a lifelong passion. So these things have a vital, entry-level role to play in the modern hobby.

Finally, a question for all dyed (died?) in the wool traditionalists. If, when you were starting out (think back to your childhood self) you had been offered the choice between an electric RTF foamie and a rubber-powered Keil Kraft kit, which would you have chosen?

[Tony Jones]

Posted by David Wright on 05/06/2012 16:57:37:

Are ARTFs a good thing or a bad thing? A new poll maybe?

DW

Think of the modelling scene without RTF 'all in one' packages to get people started and ARTFs to satisfy the wishes of those who are only attracted by the flying aspect. What would the prospects of the hobby be?

Edited By Tony Jones on 06/06/2012 12:53:37

[leccyflyer]

Grim indeed.

For a start the suppliers of all the bits and pieces and even the balsa and other raw materials so necessary for "proper aeromodellers" would contract to a very few specialists, with access to them being via mail order or, if one were exceptionally lucky, on a semi-regional basis. It is the RTF, ARTF market which keeps the model trade ticking over (or making money hand over fist depending on who you believe).

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Tony Jones on 06/06/2012 12:45:09:

Posted by leccyflyer on 06/06/2012 11:26:27:

Having just read Bertie's missive and particularly the bit referred to about children, it;s glaringly obvious that the vision of today;s youth is not tempered by actually having any real contact with them. Those who do actually encounter the younger members of society, rather than just lapping up the mythology and hype, will have noticed as ever, that youth includes a wide spread of youngsters with different interests, talents and abilities.

Seems to me that there are two overlapping issues here. One, the nature of modern childhood; second, issues about aeromodelling specifically.

Citing exceptions to the rule does not invalidate accurate generalisations. I'm an old fart but do have contact with children of the grandchildren age group (5 - 15) through my friends -although I don't have any myself. A disturbingly large number - but not all, of course - have spent a good deal of of their childhoods in their bedrooms playing with the latest games console or whatever. One or two exhibit distinct signs of latent agrophobia. Very few have ever climbed a tree, gone exploring in the woods or built a hide. And they have no idea what that superb educational device the soapbox buggy even is! I think the general consensus of opinion is that this is 'not a good thing'. I think it fair to say that t the upcoming generation do not generally have the practical skills as the one before.

Getting kids that have become accustomed to the instant gratification delivered by many modern consumer products interested in aeromodelling isn't going to be achieved by telling them that they must spend several hours building a plane by cutting out bits of balsa wood and sticking them together - and if they don't get it right, it won't fly.

But an RTF foamie that can be flown on the afternoon of the day it is bought may well get their attention. And for some, it might be the first step on the aeromodelling ladder and a lifelong passion. So these things have a vital, entry-level role to play in the modern hobby.

Finally, a question for all dyed (died?) in the wool traditionalists. If, when you were starting out (think back to your childhood self) you had been offered the choice between an electric RTF foamie and a rubber-powered Keil Kraft kit, which would you have chosen?

 

Today's youngsters may not have the "skills" of previous generations but they have skills appropriate to today;'s society. How many parents get their children to install theior home network, sort out router issues, get the printer working etc? I know that my boy is regularly called for by neighbours to sort out exactly those issues. Those are still practical skills, but they are practical skills working with the extant technology of the time.

 

Different skills for a different time, as I once pointed out to a older chap being tutted at by a stroppy impatient youngster, as the shop assistant explained the functions of his mobile phone. I told the assistant and customer that the young lad couldn't have stripped a Bren Gun, whereas the older chap would have been doing just that, at his age.

 

That works both ways- TBH the skills involved in building a soapbox buggy have relatively limited applications in the real world today and, in most decent schools the workshop skills that are taught far exceed the "make a pencil case" skillset of the 60's and 70's and, in my experience have included aluminium smelting, casting, working and finishing, as well as electronics and vac-forming. I'd venture to suggest that all of those skills are much better for aeromodelling than being able to stick some pram wheels and a rope-actuated steering rack on an orange box.

Anyone who would seriously recommend the "pocket money" non-flying Keil Kraft scale rubber models of our youth as a good introduction to the hobby, compared to something like a Multiplex Cub or Parkzone Champ is only deluding themselves. The virtual guarantee of a successful flying model available through todays RTFs and ARTFs gives a much more satisfactory introduction to model flight than spending many hours sticking together some poor, warped, overweight impression of a Spitfire that has as much chance of flying as Thomas The Tank Engine on a bad day....

 

 

Edited By leccyflyer on 06/06/2012 13:16:43

[Huggy]

Anyone who would seriously recommend the "pocket money" non-flying Keil Kraft scale rubber models of our youth as a good introduction to the hobby, compared to something like a Multiplex Cub or Parkzone Champ is only deluding themselves. The virtual guarantee of a successful flying model available through todays RTFs and ARTFs gives a much more satisfactory introduction to model flight than spending many hours sticking together some poor, warped, overweight impression of a Spitfire that has as much chance of flying as Thomas The Tank Engine on a bad day....

Edited By leccyflyer on 06/06/2012 13:16:43

Total agreement there, mate, I remember trying to build one or two of those KK jobs when I was a kid, and needless to say picked something hopelessly difficult to start with - No chance! Only many years later with a bit more patience and a bit more cash did I managed to acquire the skills necessary for small stick & tissue builds, when trying to encourage a son (who turned out to be a great model maker) to get into the hobby. When finally converting to r/c rather late in life, the HZ Super Cub was a marvellous acquisition, and although my first totally scratch built r/c plane - a low-wing Jinty from an old Aeromodeller plans collection converted to three channel and electric motor - has turned out a bit of a shed, I'll be pressing on with more kit & plan builds (now the editor confirms CNC cut ribs are coming up for next winter's project! )

[Tony Jones]

Today's youngsters may not have the "skills" of previous generations but they have skills appropriate to today;'s society. How many parents get their children to install theior home network, sort out router issues, get the printer working etc? I know that my boy is regularly called for by neighbours to sort out exactly those issues. Those are still practical skills, but they are practical skills working with the extant technology of the time.

Different skills for a different time, as I once pointed out to a older chap being tutted at by a stroppy impatient youngster, as the shop assistant explained the functions of his mobile phone. I told the assistant and customer that the young lad couldn't have stripped a Bren Gun, whereas the older chap would have been doing just that, at his age.

Good point. But we don't yet live in an entirely digital, virtual world, and those 'old fashioned' skills still come in handy when fixing things around the home, and in various physical leisure activities.

That works both ways- TBH the skills involved in building a soapbox buggy have relatively limited applications in the real world today and, in most decent schools the workshop skills that are taught far exceed the "make a pencil case" skillset of the 60's and 70's and, in my experience have included aluminium smelting, casting, working and finishing, as well as electronics and vac-forming. I'd venture to suggest that all of those skills are much better for aeromodelling than being able to stick some pram wheels and a rope-actuated steering rack on an orange box.

Anyone who would seriously recommend the "pocket money" non-flying Keil Kraft scale rubber models of our youth as a good introduction to the hobby, compared to something like a Multiplex Cub or Parkzone Champ is only deluding themselves. The virtual guarantee of a successful flying model available through todays RTFs and ARTFs gives a much more satisfactory introduction to model flight than spending many hours sticking together some poor, warped, overweight impression of a Spitfire that has as much chance of flying as Thomas The Tank Engine on a bad day....

Unfortunately, some older members of the aeromodelling community seem to be resentful of the progress that has been made with RTF and ARTF models in recent years and want newcomers to go through the same angst they had to many years ago. I emphasise 'had to'. IMHO, they are representing what was a necessity in those days - balsa bashing - as some kind of virtue. As kids they would have jumped at the opportunity of an RTF foamie if it had been available.

Edited By leccyflyer on 06/06/2012 13:16:43

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Huggy on 06/06/2012 16:27:17:

Total agreement there, mate, I remember trying to build one or two of those KK jobs when I was a kid, and needless to say picked something hopelessly difficult to start with - No chance! Only many years later with a bit more patience and a bit more cash did I managed to acquire the skills necessary for small stick & tissue builds, when trying to encourage a son (who turned out to be a great model maker) to get into the hobby. When finally converting to r/c rather late in life, the HZ Super Cub was a marvellous acquisition, and although my first totally scratch built r/c plane - a low-wing Jinty from an old Aeromodeller plans collection converted to three channel and electric motor - has turned out a bit of a shed, I'll be pressing on with more kit & plan builds (now the editor confirms CNC cut ribs are coming up for next winter's project! )

Good stuff.

I also finally managed to get some of the KeilKraft/Guillows style rubber models to fly when my son started to take an interest and he ultimately went on to build his own Eindekker from a Peter Rake plan, using some of the skills that he'd learned in the not-very-amptly named Resistant Materials lessons in school, and with my guidance.

That also involved converting small foamy free flight models to electric R/C and they were quite successful. Now, some years on, similar models are available to buy RTF and are a good introduction to the hobby for youngsters particularly.

[Antiquated]

I'm a bit late to the feedback on the July issue, but would it be possible to NOT print red on black (or vice-versa) for text (as in the final page). I needed help from my better half to read this, as it is totally invisible to those of us who suffer from only having two colour receptors, not three

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I've just got round to reading the letters page and (after checking this thread) can only agree with David Wright (05/06/2012 16:57:37) in being very disappointed with some of the sentiments expressed by the Letter of the Month.

In my (relatively limited geographically) experience, model flyers are, in general, anything but snobbish or elitist when it comes to each other's choice of models. Yes, there's going to be a bit of heathy ribbing but at the end of the day, die-hard builders will take as much interest in the latest ARTF to arrive at the field, marvel at the ingenuity of the foam scale job, covering skills of someone in a Vietnamese back room, the lovely sound of a well tuned engine, the ready practicality of an electric motor - as will the ARTF enthusiast who will marvel at the patience and skills of their building enthusiast clubmates while not wishing to invest that much time in building and acquiring the necessary skills to emulate them.

I'm fairly sure that even the most hardened electric evangelist secretly enjoys the sound of a Laser, purring away - particularly as he can feel a little quiver of smugness while the oil is being cleaned off the owner's airframe at the end of the day but the overriding attitude is that they're all model aircraft and are there to be enjoyed. Of course we all have preferences - some from the heart, some from the head - but none are any "righter" than any other and I think we all know this when we're being honest with ourselves.

On a related note, it also saddens me when I hear or read of people getting bored with the hobby and I think this is one downside to the ARTF revolution. In general, the most regular long term attendees at my club tend to be builders and I do wonder if the easy access to all types of model via a large shiny box has something to do with this. I certainly find renewed enthusiasm every time something emerges from my workshop - probably due to the lengthy period of anticipation while the piles of wood (and in some cases, foam) metamorphose into a model aircraft (or in the latest case, lawnmower). However, despite this worry, I certainly don't look down (or in any other particular direction) at ARTF fliers - I've also bought my share and enjoyed flying them.

 

Edited By Martin Harris on 18/06/2012 21:25:26