B Certificate Test

[Garry G]

 I have been trying to reach a standard to realistically take my B Test and am currently flying the ARC Cessna 177 with a 70 4st, flys well but I can't master the consecutive rolls. I have actually written off one trying.

Is the Cessna the right plane to use for the test or do I just need more pradtice?

I have fitted servos to each aileron, as you can without any modification, could aileron differential help?

[Tim Mackey]

It may be the dihedral which is spoiling your axial rolls - high wingers are not too good at these anyway.

A WOT 4 however, which is also top wing, rolls very well, but has no dihedral.

Having said that, I can see no requirement that the 2 consecutive rolls need to be axially perfect, and a little deviation during the actual  rolling should not prevent you from passing the test.

The b test is not an aerobatic schedule test, moreover it simply demonstates the pilots ability to do a liitle more than that required in the A test. I would imagine that your Cessna should be satisfactory, and it is your competence, care, attitude and so on which is under test, NOT the models ability to fly an aerobatic patternship-perfect schedule !

[Garry G]

Many thanks, I think my problem is in coordinating the down elevator at the right point in the roll and not keeping it in for too long. I wonder if moving the C of G a little further back might help.

[Tim Mackey]

Well it may, but then the "normal" flying characteristics may change, and it is best to stick with the balance point as recommended by the kit, and of course, what makes it easiest to handle in normal flight for you. I suggest you just practice the manouvere a lttle more, - have you access to a SIM ?

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Garry

Graham A (ed) flies the model you mention - it's a lovely aeroplane and he usually has floats on his, but it's not really nimble enough for the B cert. I would disagree with Tim in that the 'B' is a lot more than the 'A' and whilst not an aerobatic schedule per se' - the aerobatics contained within the test must be performed to a high standard - skewing out of loops will lead to a fail etc.. Tim is right in that your ability, attitude is important but you also need the right model for the job.  

[Garry G]

Many thanks you guys, food for thought and I will keep you posted on progress.

[simon barr]

Garry. Have you asked someboby else to fly this model through the schedule? As David A points out, the test should be completed to a reasonably high standard, so if someone else can roll the Cessna successfully, you will be expected to do the same. It may just be a case of just more practice. Good Luck

[Tim Mackey]

Well I guess the criteria for passing a B test has changed since I did mine many years ago, although looking through the published articles, it seems the same to me.

Performing a couple of rolls, and some loops, a stall turn and so on is hardly "a lot more" than the skill demanded to perform a satisfactory A test. Indeed, the nerves and inexperience involved in the "first test" EG: the "A" , will lead to more mistakes than that displayed by a pilot who has at least got some solo time under his belt in preparation for the "B".

I did not mean to sound as though I were "dumbing down" the B test, but as a club Instructor, who has seen many a pupil shakily make his way out to the strip for testing, I am usually unsurprised at the often heard comments following a successful flight such as " that wasn't as bad as I thought .

Granted, skewing out of a loop will receive a frown, a fail and shows the model is badly setup, however, I personally would be surprised and somewhat disappointed if a pupil failed his B test simply because his rolls were not perfectly axial. The test is designed to assess the pilots improved ability, and to demonstrate his competence at flying a more elaborate repertoire. Although it is usually a requirement for flying at public attended displays, it is NOT a qualification to do so - as stated so by the BMFA themselves.

Of course, as with most things, there is a "degree of degree" in so much as we don't really know just HOW BAD Garry's rolls really are ...they may already be good enough for a pass...we simply don't know. All I was trying to do was assure him that absolute perfection of these fairly simple aerobatic moves is not required. He Ho.... and anyway, main thing is to wish him all the best and good luck for the day

[Slopetrashuk]

The BMFA Power Fixed Wing B certificate is and always was intended to be capable of being flown with a standard 40 powered trainer. That is not to say that a trainer is the best model for this and in practice most B certificate candidates have moved on to something a little more spritely.

Yes the aerobatics and overall flight must be to a higher standard than that of the BMFA A certificate but the rolls do not need to be axial. They must however be consecutive with no break in the rotation between each roll, performed at the right height and position and on the right line entering and exiting on the same heading. The speed of the rolls must be slow enough to demonstrate control throughout. These manouevres will be covered in the mag shortly as part of my ongoing series 'Passing the B'.

Andy

[Slopetrashuk]

With regard to your problem it sounds as if you just need more practice. You should actually practice prolonged consecutive rolls at higher altitude until you get a feel for the input of the elevator before dropping down to 'test' height. Try 4 or 5 or even the whole length of the circuit until you get the timing and amount of input correct.

Andy

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Mike Rondel]

I'm in agreement with most everybodies' comments and the fact that a person taking the B should attempt to make the manoeuvres as accurate as possible.   Certainly watching a competent flier trying your model will  indicate whether or not it can perform the rolls sufficiently accurately or not will encourage you to improve on your stick inputs.   Having said that, if you are seriously intending to continue beyond the B manoeuvres and try more aerobatic manoeuvres or even the GBRCAA schedules, then perhaps consider a model more appropriate than the Cessna.   Such a model will be easier to fly through all manoeuvres. 

Most of the difficulty occurs with precise elevator input during consecutive rolls.   You may find it helpful initially to fly away from yourself so that you have a true rear view of the model, then start your rolls so that you view the precise moment that the model is inverted then upright and so on, at which time learn to feed in the required elevator, this allows you to learn the amount and the time required during that phase of the rolls.   Then start doing the same on a conventional flight path up and down wind.   Best of luck.

[PHILIP DYKE]

I have found that most pilots fly circuits in one direction and its the same with roles, two consecutive roles is not so difficult until you try in the opposite direction some how it dies not quite click, feel right and that when the problem starts. Practice the opposite to normal and high up, get out the sim if you have one. good luck

[Garry G]

Many thanks for all your helpful replies, as soon as I have got rid of my cold bug and can stop coughing and sneezing long enough to risk putting the plane into the air I will try some of your suggestions.

 Why didn't I think of Simon's suggestion to ask my instructor to check out the Cessna's rolls, I asked him to see if it was safe to spin, which it did very well, must be my age.

I will keep you posted

Regards Garry G

[Steve biplane]

Can I re-open this thread and ask "how fast should the model be rolling for the B test rolls? or, to put it another way, how long should it take for the model to do the 2 rolls?"   I'm also having problems with the consequetive rolls, I'm ok doing a single roll but lose the coordination on the second.  Either the roll rate speeds up or the model (SpeedAir) starts to corkscrew.   To standardise things I've decided to roll to the left when flying right to left, and to roll to the right when flying left to right (ie. I always see the top of the model first).  Any help or tips on how to better control my thumbs on the sticks gratefully received.  Or do I need a different  model that wants to roll more axially in the first place!

Steve 

[Mike Rondel]

Steve, hi.

Didn't think that this thread would show up again.   Certainly there has been plenty of previous advice that is probably worth re-reading.   How about, as has been mentioned, getting your previous instructor or your club examiner, to fly the model to see how he responds to the set up and its ability.   I think its only practice that you need. 

Speed of rotation is neither slow nor so rapid that its done in a blink, aerobatic models (set up for competition) roll rates are likely to be 360 degrees per second, sports models are very often higher.   You need sufficient time to feed in the required down and up elevator as the model progresses through the consecutive rolls, applied at and removed at the precise time so that you dont cause the model to bank away from a straight flight path.   Your model should be more than capable for the manoeuvres. 

Get together with a B Cert. pilot  capable of flying your model in a manner that is acceptable for the test and get him to stand by you to comment and guide you through the manoeuvres.   Being told where you go wrong can be very useful.

'Control my thumbs' makes me wonder what mode you fly and whether you use a neck strap or a transmitter tray.   Not that it makes a significant difference for average club flying and it's largely a matter of what method you have learned with.   Advice in this matter is not likely to help you perform the manoeuvres better other than 'just keep practicing'.  

I fly mode two, i.e. aileron/elevator on the right stick, as do club members who have leared to fly with the help of club instructors, and the majority hold the stick between thumb and first finger.   Mode one fliers will have learned under similar conditions and probably use thumbs on the top of the sticks.   What is the best way?   There is no best way, though many mode two fliers will argue that it's more like the full size.   It's your brain that has to understand what your thumbs need to do with the Tx stick layout that you have chosen.   Wont be any help to you, but as a matter of interest Christophe Paysant-Le Roux flies mode two, with a transmitter tray and holds his sticks between thumb and finger.   I see that he has retained his F3A European Championship title at the comp in Italy two weeks ago, and no doubt will do all he can to regain the F3A World title next year in Portugal that most fliers believe he lost in Argentina last year due an engine cut.

Best of luck, keep practicing. 

[Garry G]

Steve, when I first posted my question on the forum about using my Cessna for the B cert. I was having real problems with consecutive rolls and wondered if the plane was not suitable.

 Having been practicing this every time I am up on the field things have improved so I know it was me and not the plane.

 I have reduced the throws on the ailerons so that the roll rate with full stick is slow enough to enable my slow reactions to put in the down elevator at the right time and restricted the elevator movement and increased expotential so that I don't over cook that bit of it. You have to make sure you don't leave elevator in when the plane starts to knife edge or it will act as a rudder.

Still not good enough to risk taking the test  yet but will be with more practice, good luck.

[Steve biplane]

Thanks for the replies. I fly mode 2 (aileron and elevator on the RH stick) but without a neck-strap or tray so my thumbs are on top of the stick (fingers around both sides of the tranny).   I'm  aiming for about 4 seconds per roll ie the whole manoeuvre lasts for 8 seconds.  My set-up is about 35% expo on elevator and aileron and I don't use dual rates.  Reading Garry's post makes me reaslise that I could set up the aileron rate switch so that full deflection of the stick gives me the required roll rate leaving me just the elevator movement to concentrate on. That might work because it is  moving  the elevator while trying to hold the aileron input fixed (with the stick in some indeterminate position) that I find so difficult.  I will give it a go when I'm next down the field - that might be a while off because it's more like a pond at the mo!

Thanks,

Steve 

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

I've found that last few posts here very interesting, I got up to B (ish) standard 18 months ago but didn't manage to take the test. Since then, the weather has conspired, such that I am well out of practice. My biggest issue was always the slow roles and yes I'm on Mode 2. The examiners in my club are all mode 1 and don't seem to understand my difficulties at all. They however are not always so clever at stuff that takes co-ordination of elevator and rudder together such as the stall turn which I seem to find easy. I was out today and my rolls are getting much better, I seemed to be correcting all the way round without thinking. It's the "without thinking" that seems to be the key, and this can only come with practice and more practice. Practicing other non B stuff like flat rudder turns keeping the wings level, and knife edge, using elevator as rudder, also seem to be helping.

[Braddock, VC]

I passed my A but have no intention of attempting my B as the list below will show

Best B Cert plane that I feel confident with for :-

1. Take off, inverted, circuits and landing - wot4 (I know inverted isn't in the B it's just I can only do it really well with a wottie)

2.Spins and figure 8 ben buckle falcon

3.Loops Acrowot

4.Outside Loops and rolls (twinkle and slow, either direction) CMP Extra 300

5.Stall turns and anything else plus most of the above at a lesser standard pulse xt 60

Now if only I could get one plane that I felt happy with in all the manouevres.....

[Garry G]

I know the feeling, can't convince myself that the Cessna is the best plane for the "B" test but am persevering with it and improving very slowly. Everyone tells me it's just pratice and timing

Have a Capiche 50 kit waiting to be built which may prove a point when made, hopefully by the new year.

[Nick Lambert]

Yep John, I know what you mean having different planes each of which is best at a different manover and not having everything perfect in the one model. That was the case with me and my models. In the end I did my B with my trusty wotty. Mine has a lot of roll with rudder so I had to be careful to compensate on the stall turn so as not to also put a 90 degree twist in at the top. At the end of the day the examiner will have a pretty good idea of the flight chracteristics of the plane. Sure they want to see you fly the manovers OK but they are really looking to see that you can control the model and ensure that you would be safe to fly in front of the public. IE. it is not about performing a top notch 100% perfect aerobatic schedule so don't get too worried about pin point precision. If you can fly all the manovers pretty well using a mixture of planes you should be able to take one and fly it well enough to pass with just one. I guess I'm saying that having done it, it is not as hard as I thought it would be.

Good luck

Nick

[Garry G]

Nick, I was interested in you comment about the twist at the top of a stall turn being caused by the rudder. I have noticed a similar problem with my Cessna, how did you compensate for this? presumably not by reducing the rudder throw.

Garry G

[Nick Lambert]

Hi Garry,

 No not by reducing rudder (unless you have a very big movements where it can help) but by using  opposite ailerons.  So if I want to turn to the right, I give right rudder and a bit of left aileron to compensate for the right twist. You can practise by flying straight and level towards your self, give the rudder input and then as you get roll add opposite aileron to hold the wings level. Once you've got the measure of how much you need try it in the stall turn.  Some folks would add a mix in the radio to compensate but I just use the sticks.

 BTW Some models will not have the behaviour at all the will just yaw in a straight line; my Fliton 330S does this maneuver fine but for me it doesn't bunt that well as it tends to screw out in the last quarter hence I didn't use that model for the B. To be honest I'm not a big fan of the bunt so don't often do them from the top in my general flying.

Nick 

[Garry G]

Thanks Nick, I guessed that it might be something to do with opposite aileron so will give that a try.

 I was out flying today and tried using rudder for turns, with and without ailerons, and I found it drop the wing in the direction of the turn very sharply so I guess that confirms what you are saying.

Thanks

Garry G