RCM&E April 2013 Feedback

[Lee Smalley]

what i think the writer of the letter was objecting to was the insinuation that the buddy lead is the "only way to go" such a statement from someone who has maybe has not instructed before, is a little misleading.

[Lee Smalley]

firstly BEB you have no idea how his instructors have used the buddy lead with him, so to state this may be the reason he objects to it is a bit unfair.

i have lost count of the amount of people i have instructed, and i have used both systems, there are problems with both, with the buddy lead, the change of trim on switch over is a bit of a real pain and the fact that you have to bind with the pupils trainer, to be the master tx is a real pain as well, they are pretty much stuck to you as a tutor !

there are obvious problems with the tx grab system, but to be honest it can be just as successful as the buddy lead, so you state it is the only way to go, really is quite wrong

[Peter Beeney]

I also read the Buddy Nuisance letter and my first thought was - ‘Well, this is the April issue!’. However, if this isn’t a windup, then it definitely seems to be a contradiction in terms. The gentleman concerned has some fairly conclusive and definitive remarks to make about buddy leads and yet he apparently learnt to fly without ever using one; and also he only joined his club early last year, having never flown before. With the greatest respect, but that’s a great wealth of experience, is it?

I too agree with BEB here, for me the fact that more often than not a student can go home after a good session with his model intact certainly does give him a lot of confidence to have another go and try and get to that coveted first solo circuit. And for some, that can come very quickly indeed.

This must be another good example of the diversity of opinion within the realms of aeromodelling. Whilst I would fiercely fight for the right for anyone to say whatever he likes, the counter argument to this must be to simply point to the success of the buddy lead. Which would undoubtably win hands down. Apart from the few people that prefer to learn totally unaided, and I have met one or two, then the vast majority of beginners, in my experience anyway, will choose to use the buddy system.

I thought the letter’s heading photo was quite topical, too. DA getting a little refresher course on the buddy, but unfortunately looking at the wrong model though, that’s been done a few times, too! Does this explain his expression that seems to indicate that for once the model appears to be be doing exactly what he’d like it to be doing?

Along the same sort of lines, the Andy Blackburn letter, Electric Bias?, was by contrast, I thought anyway, a very epitome of conservative reasoning; and I’d also certainly be inclined to agree entirely with this. I’m very much inclined to think that any form of ‘How to do it’ type of article should be totally unbiased. But then as I’ve read many articles in the past that I wouldn’t particularly agree with, and whatever I’ve thought has been totally irrelevant, I’m probably not going to get that excited about it anyway.

Just another view, without prejudice.

PB

[Major]

Got my issue today. Didn't read the entire mag yet, but another part of BEB's series and Steve's guide are done. These two articles are just great, very informative. The rest of mag will be finished today, it looks like another great issue.

[Concorde Speedbird]

I don't use the forum much now, but I'll have a say. I think the greatest invention ever for helping someone learn to fly is the eye, and the hand (preferably two. But one working eye will do)! You can't fly without them, whereas a buddy lead is not vital.

I never used a buddy lead and I do not think they are necessary. Adding another wire into the system creates complication, and it could be set up wrong. I don't see anything wrong with handing the transmitter over, always worked for us. If you want to use a buddy lead, fine, do so, great if it gets you up. But the most important thing is a good instructor!

Andy Blackburn's letter was good, agree with that. The magazine was good overall, shame that little Seagull 35" Christen Eagle is for electric, a nice little glow engine would be magnificent on that. I like these people's thinking.

Goodbye.

CS

[Lee Smalley]

peter, i have never lost a students model through the delay in grabbing a tx, i agree that in the final approach the buddy lead might get you out of trouble, but to be honest my students have always been good at go arounds so that if i spot any problems they just get the "abort" shout, you are correct dannys comments are not from a wealth of experience, and whilst i do not agree with all the points he made, he is correct that someone in a mag should not be printing that the buddy lead system is the only way to go, especially if their own expereience is limited, certainly in my club the buddy lead is very rarely used (what is other clubs experience/ useage ) and we manage to train many pilots successfully (danny is one of those)

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

In our club all beginners start on a buddy lead. It is used to support their early flights and is removed as soon as the student feels confident and comfortable enough to fly without it. Instruction continues, without the lead, right up to passing the A cert.

My point is that I believe a buddy lead, used probably, is a benefit not a hindrance. If used incorrectly by an over-interventionist instructor then yes it will hamper the student pilot's development. But the fault there is with the instructor - not the lead!

I cannot understand why any good instructor would want to forego the use of such an obvious teaching aid, but there you go - it takes all types.

BEB

[Concorde Speedbird]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 09/03/2013 12:53:22:

I cannot understand why any good instructor would want to forego the use of such an obvious teaching aid, but there you go - it takes all types.

Because it is simply not necessary and an added complication? People used to learn fine without them before, so I don't see why they are necessary now. Anyway, I don't think it is really worth discussing so I'm over and out again. Bye.

CS

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

CSB - why do you keep contributing then saying "its not worth contributing" - weird! If you don't want to post don't do so. But contributing to a discussion and then saying "I don't think its worth discussing" is not really in the spirit is it?

Anyway - people used to drive cars without seat belts, people used to ride motorbikes without helmets, people used to fly with non-computer Tx, people didn't used to have failsafe. Just because we managed without something in the past isn't I believe a justification for not using it now!

On the reliability front - its two connectors and a piece of wire! Are we really classifying that as a potential reliability threat? Has anyone ever seen a buddy lead fail? I haven't. And even if it did it is not a failure that would be likely to bring a model down - it might mean that a model that was heading for a crash couldn't be saved - but that is very different from being the cause of a crash. If it saves 99 models and fails to save 1 because of a hardware fault its still worth while in my view.

BEB

[Andy48]

It is interesting. I started out with computers some 30 years ago, and afer a few years, a simple principle became very apparent. No matter how objective people claimed to be, almost invariably people always favoured the first thing they had used. Years back there was much debate about which was the best word processor. Arguements raged. Invariably though people came down on the side of the package they had first used.

To take Lee's point about the wording used. There are a 1001 pathways into the hobby, each with advantages and disatvantages. In the same way every club is different. Consider this, what sort of series would it have been if every sentence included words such as "perhaps" or "maybe" or provided all the different alternatives. Remember too, column space is at a premium.

I have tried to do something a bit different with these articles, and that is provide a defined pathway into building a successful trainer. In that process, decisions had to be made. Electric or i.c., buddy lead, choice of model, etc. The series would have been bland to the point of meaningless had every option been catered for. Even then no doubt someone would have come along and said I missed out this or that.

As for buddy leads, of course they are not essential, neither is joining a club or using an instructor . No doubt there are plenty who will say they taught themselves. However, I decided to go along the buddy lead route as part of that decision making process, and indeed there is an example in this month's article where I changed the assembly to simplify the setting up of the transmitter, not only to make transmitter programming easier, but also to make the programming of the buddy box easier. None of this stops a learner not using a buddy lead, nor makes it any harder.

Finally, I have creditied the learner with some intelligence. They are free to decide what to do and to listen to other advice and choose their own pathway.

Edited By Martin Phillips on 09/03/2013 14:34:32

[IanR]

I wonder if, after the earliest days of manned flight (when all aeroplanes were single seater simply because they didn't have enough oomph to heave two people into the air and manned flight was an adventure of discovery) trainee pilots have ever been asked to commence their training by going solo. I doubt it.

I think that a buddy lead system is akin to a two seater aeroplane with dual controls or even a driving school car with dual controls. Its a safe way to learn. End of.

[Peter Beeney]

I don’t have any problems with the way that other people teach their students to fly, standing on your head with one eye shut is ok with me, if that’s your thing, but I’d ponder that if Danny Frampton is prepared to write a letter containing what appear to be some instructions that largely profess to conclusively disparage a long and well established system, based purely on hearsay, then I think he should be prepared to accept that there may be some comments made. I personally wouldn’t consider that the statement ‘… a buddy system is the only sensible method for beginners’ to be particularly adamant that it is the only way to go, although perhaps diplomatically ‘…a buddy system might be one sensible method for beginners‘ could be more flexible. But I’d certainly regard the statement, You’ll never learn to regain control with the safety net of a buddy lead, particularly from someone with no experience of using a buddy lead, at best as being just nonsense, at worst, very seriously misinformed indeed!

Regarding the trim settings on the buddy system, one way of doing this is to operate the changeover switch whilst watching the model. If the trim settings on both transmitters are different then the control surfaces will move slightly. So then it’s just a case of moving the trims on the slave tx until they are balanced and there is no movement. It only takes a few seconds. Of course, this implies that the model is in trim anyway, but I would have first given it a quick trimming flight to make sure it’s as well trimmed as I can get it. Our beginners use their own transmitter, bound to their own model, as the Master, I just plug my tx in as the Slave, which the pupil then uses to control the model. Thus we certainly never have to bind or re-bind any model, I simply change the functions on my Slave tx. Just put the settings for individual Masters each into a separate a memory, and ask the student to remember his memory number. Easy Peasy! Works like a dream!

The only ‘pain’ I’ve ever had with with buddy leads is the Spektrum variety, right from the early days of Futaba M. Question, when is a mono plug not a mono plug? Answer, when it’s a Spektrum mono plug. This problem cropped up again only just recently, but as long as you use the genuine lead it’s ok. The Futaba ones used to go faulty at the ends, after some hard usage, but when I made my own, to my own spec., that was successful for evermore.

Hope this is of some use.

PB

[Concorde Speedbird]

Alright BEB alright, blimey. When did I ever say it was not worth contributing for a start? I only said I didn't think it was worth discussing- once- at the end of what I intended to be my last post on this thread. What's wrong with having an opinon? Is writing a paragraph complaining about another user useful? No, not really. I have an opinion too, if you don't want to hear it then just say.

As for buddy leads, any added wire or plug can create an area for something to go wrong. If you like using them and the instructor and learner does too then fine, it is their choice and not something I wish to comment on. Or am I not allowed to say that?

CS

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

I think using buddy leads at the start of instructing someone new is a very useaful safety aid, BEB's clubs idea of taking it away at some point seems a good idea too.

Trims, dead easy to set up as Peter says, a trimming flight with the master, then on the ground, keep switchching between the two and adjust the slave. Alternatively, on some Spektrum transmitters use the P-Link facility.

The use of a lead also allows a different mode to be taught. Buddys can be mixed between JR and Spektrum so for example an old JR 35Mhz Tx can usefully be used as a slave.

If a lead fails - blimey this is clutching at straws - the instructor just lets go of the switch and he has control immediately.

Some systems add another level of training too, if there's a pupil with particular difficulties, then only some of the controls can be passed to the pupil, while others can be retained by the instructor.

 

 

Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 09/03/2013 15:09:27

[graeme jones]

This is what happened last time I DIDN'T use a buddy lead to instruct. That's my late wife Penny holding the wing of my Flair Attila in 1979. Technically, I crashed it, since I was holding the Tx when the aircraft hit the ground!

Graeme

P.S. Another good reason to use a buddy lead is that I fly mode 1. Everyone else wants to use mode 2.

Edited By graeme jones on 09/03/2013 15:26:44

[Peter Beeney]

Chris, - I think if you look at the system closely, you will find that if the connection is not made for whatever reason then the the Master tx automatically keeps control anyway. So you don’t get a situation where no one has control. At least, that’s how I’ve always found it; and buddy leads certainly do fail, when they are in use full time, with many beginners and therefore constantly being yanked about. But using a piece of screened cable, with the outer screen firmly anchored to the plug body, and the plug interior filled with contact adhesive, to stop the thin wires moving around, permanently cured this.

MPX were doing the ‘one at the time’ control changeover facility many years ago, I briefly tried this but instantly abandoned it, it never seemed really necessary. However, it may well be that this could be useful for someone learning helicopters.

Just a spot more useless info…….

PB

[Lee Smalley]

As I have said both ways have small problems, I don't really think the lead is a massive reliability problem, and both systems are fine for teaching a newbie to fly I just objected to the insinuation that it really is the only sensable option ! And so did others, opinions are fine and indeed required sometimes but we have to be careful sometimes, my opinion is that ic is better to teach newbies on but I would never state in the mag it is the only sensable option, as it plainly is not

[Tim Mackey]

I too have taught many people over my 30+ years flying model aircraft, and these days consider the buddy lead system a brilliant idea - in fact I wont teach people now without one, certainly for those first few flights. I am talking "normal" flying field type beginner models, not a vapor or foamy sloper.

I too remember the wrestling match that often happened as I tried to get the tx back from the trainee, and it did occasionally result in a crash - or certainly very near crash.

Buddy lead "fors":

1) Any mode to any mode

2) P link spektrum / JR system means no fiddling with trims or other tx settings - plug and play

3) Lead fails / unplugs? - no worries, master automatically has control

4) Enhanced safety through instant recovery of control by master

"Againsts":

None really, other than as staed earlier, trainee could be overreliant on the safety net - but thats down to instructors reluctance to go lead free at relevant stage.

[Lee Smalley]

so if they have a futaba or other tx brand, you refuse to teach them... i wish we had enough instructors to allow us to do that !!!

[Tim Mackey]

Of course not, I use my dx8 and dx6i for pupil.

[Chris Channon]

Hi all, yep another good read, not sure about the servo fixing idea using ply and a grp strap, ok for gliders no vibration, but we were always taught to insulate the servo by using the servo gromits and ferules, not to let the servo touch any part of the airframe.

Keep up the good work,

Regards

Chris C.

[Richard scarborough]

When I started building my TN Harvard I chose a colour scheme with plenty of red, use up that roll of covering in the shed and save a bit of money. After looking at hundreds of photos on the internet I thought, NZ Airforce colours, "that'll be unusual".

That was until I started reading the latest issue of RCM&E. The magazine just seemed to fall open on page 82 and there is Brian Wood's magnificent model, not only has Brian chosen the same scheme but the same aircraft, specifically NZ1065. The photo's I have show the cowl both grey or with red and white squares. I would love to know more about Brian's model, it is much more true to scale than mine.

P.S I have never seen Brian's model, I live 12000 miles away.

[Lee Smalley]

woooo get timmy with his multiple txs ....that man got money to burn

[Olly P]

The trim on master transfer facility is also available on some Futaba Tx's - certainly my 10FG has it, and it is useful as you also can ignore channel reversals etc, the student (slave) tx just acts to give inputs to the surfaces - no trim or direction changes.

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 13/03/2013 12:22:02:

woooo get timmy with his multiple txs ....that man got money to burn

I doubt that the two of them together would be even half the cost of yours Lee - and certainly only a fraction of your expensive turbine jet.