Which follow on trainer?

[John C]

I have been flying my Seagull E-Pioneer electric 61" high wing trainer for 3 months and have now passed my A Certificate test. I plan to carry on flying this forgiving and tough plane through the winter to try and improve my ratio of gentle to heavy landings.

My thoughts are turning to what I should progress to for my next plane and would like to give Santa some pointers.

I like electric power for its reliability and having a clean model so I would like a plane which can be sucessfully converted to electric (no taking the wings off to change batteries). I would also like to learn to fly a tail dragger.

The WOT 4 looks like a strong contender using Chris Foss's method of conversion to electric.

Which other planes could I consider?

[Bandit]

Acrowot foam E

I cannot praise mine enough even though she's looking a bit tatty now after a year of hard flying.

[Phil 9]

hangar 9 pulse it comes in many sizes to suite your preference all can be set up with electric

no nasty vices

[Depron Daz]

+1 on the WOTTY

[David Davis]

Both the Acrowot and WOT 4 in any of their guises are excellent follow-on models, though seeing a low-winged model in the sky for the first time took me a bit of getting used to.

I am a dyed-in-the-wool traditional sticks and tissue modeller, (ok I don't use tissue!) but I must have flown my foamy WOT4 more than any other model I possess. Recommended.

[Phil 9]

Posted by David Davis on 02/11/2013 06:56:17:

Both the Acrowot and WOT 4 in any of their guises are excellent follow-on models, though seeing a low-winged model in the sky for the first time took me a bit of getting used to.

I am a dyed-in-the-wool traditional sticks and tissue modeller, (ok I don't use tissue!) but I must have flown my foamy WOT4 more than any other model I possess. Recommended.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

sounds like your a dyed-in-the-wool AFRT man who does a bit of building

[Bearair]

Another vote for the Wot4 foame, like others I am not a great fan of foamies but ive taken people from beginner to B cert with this plane. The only slight criticism I can make of it is the undercarriage can be a bit weak. The best cure I've seen is dowels through the fus and elastic band the undercarriage on.

Roger

[Rick Tee]

Posted by Bearair on 02/11/2013 07:09:36:

Another vote for the Wot4 foame, like others I am not a great fan of foamies but ive taken people from beginner to B cert with this plane. The only slight criticism I can make of it is the undercarriage can be a bit weak. The best cure I've seen is dowels through the fus and elastic band the undercarriage on.

Roger

Really! you think someone who has taken their 'A' & 'B' cert on a foamy is ok to fly a 100" aerobatic model in front of a crowd. Or am i missing something, is there a foame 'B'?

Edited By Rick Tee on 02/11/2013 07:30:59

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Phil 9]

Posted by Rick Tee on 02/11/2013 07:28:57:

Posted by Bearair on 02/11/2013 07:09:36:

Really! you think someone who has taken their 'A' & 'B' cert on a foamy is ok to fly a 100" aerobatic model in front of a crowd. Or am i missing something, is there a foame 'B'?

If the foam-e fits the criteria for the B cert in theory you could do exactly that.

But a manager of an event still has a duty to ensure pilots are competent and a B cert is still not a guaranty of that. Any sensible person would not jump from a wot 4 to a 100cc IMAC model but if you really wanted to you could (but would that show a event manager you would be a good safe pilot for his event?)

[Phil 9]

Posted by Percy Verance on 02/11/2013 08:36:49:

Along with the earlier post I'd also recommend the Hangar 9 Pulse, but with reservations. The Pulse series are absolutely cracking flyers, and come with a tremendous pedigree. However, they're not going to stand up to even slightly careless handling (read rough landings). So, if you're still landing on a wingtip or your strip isn't of good quality, it's perhaps not the right choice.

A Wot 4 could be a good choice, but not if you want something different. The Hangar 9 Toledo Special looks good and has amazing aerobatic ability for a model looking like it came from the 1940's, but it aint cheap. There are certainly lots out there for new flyers to choose from now.....

I had a great planes escapade 61 it flies like a pulse but is very robust. The smaller escapade 40 is not quite as strong but probably a little stronger than the same size pulse

[Bandit]

To be fair you have to be good to pass the B so would it matter if the plane is made of foam?

I find it more tricky to get moves right with the light foam-e in a breeze as your corrections have to be more, there is no weight to help dampen the gusts.

I think it would be easier with something like the PA bandit as they fly so strait and true. I cannot believe how much less effort it takes to get the bandit to fly really well and it probably doesnt weigh much more.

[David Davis]

Posted by Bearair on 02/11/2013 07:09:36:

Another vote for the Wot4 foame, like others I am not a great fan of foamies but ive taken people from beginner to B cert with this plane. The only slight criticism I can make of it is the undercarriage can be a bit weak. The best cure I've seen is dowels through the fus and elastic band the undercarriage on.

Roger

No the best cure for a weak undercarriage is to land the model more gently!

[David Davis]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

sounds like your a dyed-in-the-wool AFRT man who does a bit of building

Nah! I've only got two ARTFs and one of those is broken!

[Bearair]

Posted by Rick Tee on 02/1in/2013 07:28:57:

Posted by Bearair on 02/11/2A13 07:09:36:

AnotherI

vote for the Wot4 foame, like others I am not a great fan of foamies but ive taken people from beginner to B cert with this plane. The only slight criticism I can make of it is the undercarriage can be a bit weak. The best cure I've seen is dowels through the fus and elastic band the undercarriage on.

Roger

Really! you think someone who has taken their 'A' & 'B' cert on a foamy is ok to fly a 100" aerobatic model in front of a crowd. Or am i missing something, is there a foame 'B'?

Edited By Rick Tee on 02/11/2013 07:30:59

Yes your missing the point of the A and B acheivement scheme entirely!

As long as the model weighs over 1kg and is airworthy then i dont care if someone takes the test with a paper aeroplane, dressed in a pink tutu with a dafodil up his derriere! More to the point any examiner who try's to impose any restrictions above and beyond the BMFA instructions has no right to and should be removed as an examiner.

I neither know nor care wether the candidate is capable of flying a 100" aerobatic model in front of a crowd. That is beyond my remit as an examiner (ex examiner now as i fly in a non affiliated club). The responsability for who flies what, where is most importantly and legally THE RESPONSABILITY OF THE PILOT.

Roger

[John C]

Posted by Percy Verance on 02/11/2013 08:36:49:

Along with the earlier post I'd also recommend the Hangar 9 Pulse, but with reservations. The Pulse series are absolutely cracking flyers, and come with a tremendous pedigree. However, they're not going to stand up to even slightly careless handling (read rough landings). So, if you're still landing on a wingtip or your strip isn't of good quality, it's perhaps not the right choice.

First, thank you all for the great replies - very helpful!

Our flying field is part of an old airfield which means we have a large landing area of 100m x 150m of tarmac but it is in poor condition and breaking up in places with a lot of loose stones on the surface. I am regularly damaging and breaking the tips off my 12"x6" APC props on the stones plus my heavy landings. I have fitted 75mm diameter wheels which helps and I may change to a less efficient 11"x7" prop to improve the ground clearance.

All this is to say that a tough model would probably be better fo me. Lots of fliers at our club fly foamies but I think at the moment I like having a larger (easier to see) and heavier model which does not get blown about so much in the wind. Nothern Ireland is particularly windy and I would like a model that I feel confident to fly when the wind is 15mph and perhaps more. Not many fliers at our club bring their foamies out when I am still flying my E-Pioneer on breezier days. Ground clearance of the prop is another factor in the choice.

[bouncebounce crunch]

John C. The sky is (or the ground and money) is the limit.

Seagull Pc9 is a model that is forgiving, aerobatic and robust. good scale scheme too.

bbc

[IanR]

Hello John, I've just written a girt long post and managed to lose it somehow. Anyway, briefly, I'm only a Wot 4 foamie newbie so can't make any firm recommendations but, from what I've seen on t'internet, I suggest you look at Tony Nijhuis' Sky 40 and Great Planes Avistar Elite. They're both "advanced" trainers, fairly heavy and supposed to be good in wind. (In his RCM&E build article, as an aside, Tony Nijhuis recommends that you increase control throws if you want to fly in winds up to 15 and 20 knots - sounds good to me!)

They're both tricycle, unfortunately. Anyway, have a google and see what you think.

Ian

[John C]

Posted by Phil 9 on 02/11/2013 08:44:58:

I had a great planes escapade 61 it flies like a pulse but is very robust. The smaller escapade 40 is not quite as strong but probably a little stronger than the same size pulse

The GP Escapade 61 **LINK** looks interesting - the US forums are also confirming it is very robust and the battery access from above looks excellent. I like the larger size too. Very little work to complete compared with a plane that needs conversion to electric.

I am wondering if the jump for me from my E-Pioneer to the a low wing plane is too big. However, many of you are suggesting the Acrowot so perhaps it is sensible progression?

[Phil 9]

Posted by John C on 02/11/2013 14:32:37:

Posted by Phil 9 on 02/11/2013 08:44:58:

I had a great planes escapade 61 it flies like a pulse but is very robust. The smaller escapade 40 is not quite as strong but probably a little stronger than the same size pulse

The GP Escapade 61 **LINK** looks interesting - the US forums are also confirming it is very robust and the battery access from above looks excellent. I like the larger size too. Very little work to complete compared with a plane that needs conversion to electric.

I am wondering if the jump for me from my E-Pioneer to the a low wing plane is too big. However, many of you are suggesting the Acrowot so perhaps it is sensible progression?

It would not be too big of a jump but I would advise getting a compliant pilot to stand with you for the first few flights. That is just until you get your confidence up.

I went from a wot trainer glow to a pulse 60 electric without too many problems

the landing approach does feel very long to start with but you soon get used to it and it is not much larger in reality it just feels that way.

some cross weave tape or a plastic skid on the wing tips does help limit damage if you scrape the wing on the concrete ( but only a scrape hit it hard and you will still get damage)

I also had a escapade 61 with a asp 120 and is defiantly a lot stronger than the pulse. It flies as well as the pulse but has a faster roll rate on full rates

[John C]

Posted by Phil 9 on 02/11/2013 15:23:39:

It would not be too big of a jump but I would advise getting a compliant pilot to stand with you for the first few flights. That is just until you get your confidence up.

I went from a wot trainer glow to a pulse 60 electric without too many problems

the landing approach does feel very long to start with but you soon get used to it and it is not much larger in reality it just feels that way.

some cross weave tape or a plastic skid on the wing tips does help limit damage if you scrape the wing on the concrete ( but only a scrape hit it hard and you will still get damage)

I also had a escapade 61 with a asp 120 and is defiantly a lot stronger than the pulse. It flies as well as the pulse but has a faster roll rate on full rates

Thanks Phil, that is all very helpful advice.

[Phil 9]

Posted by David Davis on 02/11/2013 09:10:08:

No the best cure for a weak undercarriage is to land the model more gently!

John this is good advice. It does not matter how strong your model is it will not put up with hitting a tarmac surface with any force (a grass strip is a little more forgiving and slows down the model on ground better)

even a foamie gets grated up pretty fast on a rough tarmac strip

you need to get good at landing (the rudder is your friend)

[John C]

Posted by Phil 9 on 02/11/2013 15:54:15:

Posted by David Davis on 02/11/2013 09:10:08:

No the best cure for a weak undercarriage is to land the model more gently!

John this is good advice. It does not matter how strong your model is it will not put up with hitting a tarmac surface with any force (a grass strip is a little more forgiving and slows down the model on ground better)

even a foamie gets grated up pretty fast on a rough tarmac strip

you need to get good at landing (the rudder is your friend)

I will practice all winter with my trainer (if I can stick the cold)! I really enjoy practicing landing but it is still very erratic. It will be easier getting the air time now I don't need to always find someone to stand with me.

[Bandit]

Try not to be so keen as to fly in very rough weather over winter

[John C]

Posted by Bandit on 02/11/2013 17:08:31:
Try not to be so keen as to fly in very rough weather over winter

I agree. One small step at a time.