GONZO Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 FOR INFORMATION TO FASST USERS Reports of some problems with the modified implementation of FASST(compliant with the new EN300328 1.8.1) have been reported. Post 5358 onward **LINK** and Post 137 onward **LINK** Have posted this elseware but thought a new thread would be useful as this could have safety implications.. The latest software update, v.5, for the 14SG appears to have caused some issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Good decision, Gonzo - having browsed those links I suspect this thread might get some activity!...... I've deleted the post in the other thread to avoid splitting the subject. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.. Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Very interesting & in a nutshell don't upgrade to version 5 if you use OEM/ third party receivers. I'm glad this has been flagged as I was going to do mine at the weekend. Edited By Justin K. on 04/12/2014 13:18:18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 I'm not a 14SG user. I'm a TM8 module and a 12FG Tx user with mainly FrSky receivers. But, as FASST is not compliant with the new regs coming in 2015 Futaba may offer some form of update/exchange(with a fee?). So, I think its as well to be aware of whats going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 What new regs are these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 David, As stated in my first post. Link to thread on new standard with link contained in text to ETSI. **LINK** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Sorry, yes, just having a read G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 David, Its a big document in standards speak. The points of interest, as I see it, are the LBT (Listen Before Talk) requirement and the MU (Medium Utilisation) limit. FASST does not LBT and I understand that the MU is significantly higher than the new spec. limit. This new standard will apply to all new equipement sold/made in 2015, but, existing equipement may continue to be used. I see two potential areas of concern here; 1/ sourcing replacements when parts fail. 2/ newer equipement with LBT being used along side older equipement, especially in a busy RF environment. The newer equipement will be forced to skip 'slots' and thus drop/loose data and give slow response possibly falling into failsafe mode. For info I'm providing a link to a review of the 14SG. The interesting info is from post 2 showing spectrum analiser displays of the various Futaba transmission protocols. FASST, for want of a better description, appears very band dominant with 36 wide channels covering the whole band. **LINK** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Copied from the 14SG thread on RCGroups "We have been informed by Futaba, Japan, that European users may find that non-Futaba equipment may not work with their Futaba 14SG once the new software update is in place. That is because the software has been made to conform to the new European regulations for RC transmitters. Unfortunately, that may cause some difficulties with non-Futaba equipment that does not conform to the new regulations. Users in North America will not be affected because the European regulations will not apply to equipment sold there. Bill Baxter, Manager Futaba Service Center North America 3002 N. Apollo Dr. Suite 1 Champaign IL 61822 USA Phone: (217) 398-0007 Fax: (217) 398-7721 Email: : [email protected] Web: **LINK** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Dav 2 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 So where do we go from here? It looks as though we can continue to use existing SG14 tx and 3rd. party rx. I shan't download this latest update until I have a bit more info.. As readers may guess, I have some orange/FRsky receivers (as I suspect many of us have). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Ok, thanks G, all noted. I think I'll stick with V4 for my 14' at the moment then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 5, 2014 Author Share Posted December 5, 2014 I gather, from recent posts on the other forums, that the V5 update can determine wether the 14SG is a European or USA model. The update only changes the transmission protocol to conform to the new ETSI standard if it detects a European model. European (UK) users will have to decide how much they want the other update changes balanced against the number of third party Rx they have which may/will become somewhat suspect on their ability to use the new protocol. I still have some misgivings on the new protocol requirement to LBT in the model flying environment, as stated in item 2/ of my 4th post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Dav 2 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 In the long run there may be a problem with subsequent updates (vs. 6-7-8... etc) unless v.5 has been installed. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Stands to reason I guess Barrie, not that the upgrades have brought any particularly earth-shattering features as far as I can recall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Dav 2 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Yes, you're right David but most of us like to have our devices with the latest 'improvement'. Maybe Futaba have used this latest software to sell more of their own brand rx's. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ashby - Moderator Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I'm sure the fact didn't escape them. No you're right Barrie, I've upgraded religiously every time. Edited By David Ashby - RCME on 11/12/2014 09:51:10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.. Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Yes I agree with your thinking Barrie But! Could this be a massive busines mistake? I personally have only version 3 as it does much more than I need , I won't bother updating from 3 and I won't be looking to update my TX for some time . But when I do I doubt I would carry on as a Futaba customer is the status quo remains the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceejay Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 never done an update in my life, wouldn't know how!!! and I don't intend to start now, my 14 will stay as is so I can continue to use my non futaba RX,s don't fix wot aint broke!! cj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Bennett Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 I own a Futaba 10CG, and am not planning to change at the moment, so hopefully am not affected by this new rule. But one thing that puzzles me is the reference to Listen Before Talk; I thought that all our 2.4GHz transmitters checked the frequency spectrum (i.e. listened) before they selected a few unused channels and started using them to talk to the receiver. So what's the difference that the EU is insisting on, in layman's terms, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Wilson Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Just to throw something into this discussion - I have a Futaba T14SG and I have installed the V5 update. It works with one of my FrSky receivers but another FrSky receiver now has a 2 second latency on response to the transmitter - useful if you know where you model will be in 2 seconds time ! ! No problem with Futaba receiver's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chambers Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Posted by Allan Bennett on 14/12/2014 19:05:33: I own a Futaba 10CG, and am not planning to change at the moment, so hopefully am not affected by this new rule. But one thing that puzzles me is the reference to Listen Before Talk; I thought that all our 2.4GHz transmitters checked the frequency spectrum (i.e. listened) before they selected a few unused channels and started using them to talk to the receiver. So what's the difference that the EU is insisting on, in layman's terms, please? No they don't all LBT. However some have always done so. I know for certain that Hitec 2.4GHz system has already LBT. The problem lies with the original standard EN300328 v1.7.1 - which is the EU standards for 2.4GHz systems, Document version 1.7.1. For ensuring proper shared use of the 2.4GHz band, the standard states: "4.3.5 Medium access protocol 4.3.5.1 Definition A medium access protocol is a mechanism designed to facilitate spectrum sharing with other devices in a wireless network. 4.3.5.2 Requirement A medium access protocol shall be implemented by the equipment." A bit vague isn't it?! So in the latest revision (v1.8.1), they changed it to be much more explicit and defines exactly what it should be doing. Si. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josip Vrandecic -Mes Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Hi The old man and the bad English ... a deadly combination isn't it? So please give me a good man with a simple English...So... I need the answer :Can I buy, some new Futaba RX (up to 8 ch),after this New Year, and use it over my T8FG .... with no problems and updates,as before , or not? Do not shoot me please ..... I'm just an ordinary RC flyer! Thanks in advance, and Regards to all Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chambers Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Posted by Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 14/12/2014 20:25:35: Hi The old man and the bad English ... a deadly combination isn't it? So please give me a good man with a simple English...So... I need the answer :Can I buy, some new Futaba RX (up to 8 ch),after this New Year, and use it over my T8FG .... with no problems and updates,as before , or not? Do not shoot me please ..... I'm just an ordinary RC flyer! Thanks in advance, and Regards to all Jo Yes! Everything will be the same. It will be completely legal to use. The only problem may be if the 8FG receives an update. Then the compatible FASST receiver will break. However given that the 8FG is an old radio+discontinued radio and not had a software update in a long time, that's unlikely. Any existing stock in shops won't be affected either. Only stuff imported into the EU (new and second hand) or manufactured. Si. Edited By Simon Chambers on 14/12/2014 20:45:51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josip Vrandecic -Mes Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Dear Simon ,Thanks alot, you are very kind...a things are now clearer . Al the best and Happy Christmas Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Bennett Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Posted by Simon Chambers on 14/12/2014 19:39:28: Posted by Allan Bennett on 14/12/2014 19:05:33: I own a Futaba 10CG, and am not planning to change at the moment, so hopefully am not affected by this new rule. But one thing that puzzles me is the reference to Listen Before Talk; I thought that all our 2.4GHz transmitters checked the frequency spectrum (i.e. listened) before they selected a few unused channels and started using them to talk to the receiver. ... No they don't all LBT. However some have always done so. I know for certain that Hitec 2.4GHz system has already LBT. ... So, my Futaba obviously doesn't LBT because they're having to update FASST to meet the new spec; so how does my present Futaba know what channels are free, if it doesn't already listen before it starts talking? Does it start transmitting on any random channel, and then switch only if the receiver gets confused because someone else is using it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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