Crashed West Wings Toucan

[JC]

I just crashed my westwings oucan for the second time(second flight). This is not my first model and I fly my brushless powered coyote and other gliders with out problems. the model was balanced and range checked. I used a 480 brushed motor  with a two cell lipo. The aircraft turned on its own under full power but climed away and glided straighed and level witn the motor off. I presume this was the torque of the motor pulling it to one side. But twice now I lost controll in a turn  and the model went in to a spin from which I could not recover. After the first crash I rebuilt the damage and rechecked every thing before flying. I put the first crash down to the way the BTY is fitted on a tray which could of  moved and obstructed the output arms of the servos. For the second flight I mounted the BTY on the Fusalage floor in a more tradition configuration. Any ideas  or similar experiences with this model?

Regards to all

Jon 

[Tim Mackey]

What radio gear is in it, how well is it installed, what was happening at the time,  and loads of other questions which will be reeavant Jon ?

[Andy Green]

Spinning in from a turn sounds like a tip stall, does the wing have wash out - TE higher that LE or more probably wash in with the TE lower than the LE.

If the turn is made with ailerons was the turn the same way for both crashes?

A Timbo says - load of questions.

Andy

[JC]

Hi Guys

to answer the first question. The toucan is fitted with GWS IQ-140 servos and a Graupner  C8 FM 35 RX. And I use a Graupner MX12 computer radio. The gear was all well fitted. As for the wing it has no washout or wash in. The model is rudder elevator only and the turns were in the same direction. To the left. Is it possible that the model needs to be flown all the time under power and just wont turn at low speed like the gliders that I,m used to. I have not repaired it yet and will let you know how it goes once I do.

Thank you for the replies

Regards

Jon

[Former Member]

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[JC]

Cheers Eric

I will rebuild it and try again. Its my first model of this type even my Coyote has nearly caught me out at low speed before now but it recovers much more easily.

Thanks again.

Regards

Jon

[Andy Gates]

As Eric has suggested, the Toucan needs to be flown far faster than the Coyote.

If you are having the same issues with the Coyote then you are flying that a touch too slow too.

If you are flying rudder and elevator only, then both machines will take a while to respond to the rudder control inputs. You need to be "feeding" in the rudder commands gently - by that I mean use small movements over a period of time rather than heaps of movement for a moment or too. This will lead to a much more controlled flight and should mean that your machines do not get near the dreaded tip stall.

Good luck

[Former Member]

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[JC]

Hi guys

Well I will say one thing for the toucan, it is a very robust model. I've just crashed it for the third time. The models c of g is in exactly the right place and there is no slop in the control surfaces. The problem is that it wobbles round the sky and just wont settle down. It is not a question of flying the airplane more a case of stopping it crashing. I can keep this up for a few minutes but eventually it wins and flops out of the air.This is not my first model and I can recover my other models with out too much trouble even when on approach and the wind suddenly gusts. I know that a diagnoses it difficult with out actually seeing the model fly. But any ideas?

[Andy Gates]

Sorry Jon but it still sounds like you are flying too slowly. Your description of it wobbling around the sky is the reason I say that. Try some more speed, not easy to describe just how fast it needs to fly to maintain control.

It will need far more speed than any of your other machines, I do not know if you ever opened out your Easy Star to full throttle level flight but your Toucan needs to fly around half that speed. It will not plod about like the Coyote / Easy Star since the wing loading is going to be far higher.

[Former Member]

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[JC]

Thanks Guys

The  wobbling I mentioned is not the stall glide stall pattern I thinks comes from a model that is not balenced correctly but more of a general twichy flight with the model trying to drop its wings all the time. I'm using a 400 brushed motor and a 2 cell 1300 lipo so the set up should be faster than the recomended 400 with nicads as it is lighter.(no expert here) I was flying it at full throttle but did slow it down a bit to try and get some control before it nosed in. I think, given the advice,  that I need to go brushless to get more power. Any suggestions for a suitable set up thats not going to turn it into prop hanging 3D job?

Thanks for taking the time to reply

Regards

Jon

[Andy Gates]

Jon

What prop have you fitted to your motor and what version of a 400 do you have?

Not all 400's are the same, and they may well need different props depending on the power supply. It should not be necessary for this machine to go brushless for it to fly.

Also while we are in the 20 question mode, what is the total weight of your machine ready to fly?

As for the description, maybe the wobble should be described as a wallow.

[Andy Gates]

Have you seen this Jon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFv-EaGwTwA&feature=related

It may give you an idea as to how fast it needs to fly to stay in the air and be controlled.

[JC]

Hi Andy

The motor is a Graupner speed 400 6V. the prop is a 7X4 carbon graupner cam folding prop. I found earlier today a video clip of the Toucan on You Tube. Type in west wings toucan and there is only one clip of the model. Interestingly the model flown exhibits the same problems that I have had. The first word you hear is the pilot saying "tricky" followed by the model looking very uncomfortable in the air. Then ,surprise, it noses over and piles in. It does not appear to me just me that has this problem. The suggested motor for the model in the instructions is a 380. The 400 option is supposed to give a power increase for the more accomplished pilot. The all up weight is just under 1 Lb. A wallow would be a good description of the flight pattern.

Thanks again for the help

Regards 

Jon.

[JC]

Andy

Me again. The link you sent is the same clip. I see what you mean. It flys well at speed but does not handle at anything less than full throttle. Mine is trouble all the time. I  would not like to try it on the suggested 380 motor. Any advice on prop selection welcome.

Jon

[Andy Gates]

Well you could slip down to a 6x3 and add an extra cell to your battery pack which will give more speed and thrust, but I suspect your motor would not last too long. It also would not help with the landings at all.

I would suggest adding a little washout to each wing panel.

Hold the wing down with the root at the edge of  table (fuselage hanging off the edge).

Now hold the leading edge of the wing tip down and add a piece of 1/8" balsa under the trailing edge wing tip.

Now reshrink the covering.

Repeat for the other wing panel.

This should add a little stabillity to the wing for your next attempt.

Good luck

[Ian Holme]

Jon,

I built one of these some yrs ago, it did not fly!

from what i can recall it suffered from the same problems that you are experiencing.

I subsequently built another of similar proportions, using the same speed 400 and 6 cell nicad as before, and it flys very well to his day.

The only significant change is masses (and i do mean masses) of washout as descibed above.

good luck!

[JC]

Hi Andy , Ian

Thank you both for the replies. Sorry I took so long to get back to you but I had problems with my ISP. Now solved.  I will try the wash out idea, thanks Andy, hopefully this will help.I persume this creates a dihedral which would make the aircraft more stable? I still have the brushless option up my sleeve and have got a nice Graupner out runner from my local model shop on a special offer. Thanks for all your advice I will post the results when I get the chance to fly it again.

Regards

Jon

[Andy Gates]

Jon

Washout has nothing to do with dihedral.

Washout effectively reduces the angle of attack progressively down the wing so theoretically the root of the wing should stall well before the wing tip does, so reducing the wallowing which I suspect is going from one stalled pane to the other.

Sadly it will not cure flying too slowly but it may help a little

[Ian Holme]

hi Jon,

Not sure about your power set-up, but i continue to fly mine as a "hack" model and it performs pretty well with an old speed 400 and 7 cell 600 nicad, and gunther prop. Old school stuff but more than adequate for a model of this size.

The increase washout will basically just help prevent tip-stalling, got to be worth a try.

[Andy Freeman]

I had the excact same issue.   Wildly uncontrolable under power but would glide beautifully.

Now hangs in the rafters....

[JC]

Hi all

 

I have given up on the toucan. Put an out runner in it, much more power, checked all the flying surfaces and the balance. It still flew like a brick and pilled in. 

 

Jon

[Andy Freeman]

I built one.....1500 3s lipo 140 watt ourunner. It would glide fine but was unflyable with power on.  Been retired since last summer but i might try putting loads of washout in to the wing and trying again. 

 

I always felt it was a shame as the Beguine I built was and still is a fine flier.....

[JC]

Same problem it would glide ok but on full power it it was simply terrible and on half power it just went into a spin and crashed. I have removed the radio and put the out runner in my coyote which is still a great plane to fly. I,m tempted to try the west wings pinto but the toucan has put me off abit.