Full size landings

[Mark Kettle 1]

Captain Joe covers some of what you have been asking in these two videos.

 

 

Second part here.

 

 

 

 

In this video Captain Joe answers the most asked question - Q: Can a passenger land a plane ?

 

 

 

 

Edited By Mark Kettle 1 on 03/12/2017 09:12:10

[Cuban8]

Posted by Dave Bran on 01/12/2017 21:27:47:

I realise this is a long while ago but a friend and I taught a Dan Air Pilot (on Comets) to fly models.

He could manage orientation APART from the landing, when he had to stand looking the way the plane was flying and look back over his shoulder.

I always worried about his passengers......................................

Over the very many years that I've been in this hobby, I've noticed that in general, pilots of full size aircraft don't always make the best pupils when it comes to learning R/C. On the other hand, modellers who take up full size lessons tend to make good pupils and providing the money doesn't run out, achieve their PPL without too much trouble.

One of my club's youngsters back in 2006 that I now believe has gone on to great things in the professional aviation world. Page 11.

**LINK**

Edited By Cuban8 on 03/12/2017 10:27:21

[Rob Ashley]

Well have to say Cuban I disagree completely. For those who are PPL only perhaps, but for us professionals not a chance. I have taught 6 professional aviators to fly models and numerous non aviators. The full size guys were much easier to teach and learnt much quicker. Might be the way you were trying to relate to them.

[Simon Chaddock]

From my gliding days I certainly would consider double deck bus height very high to flare.

I took one of our tug pilots up in our Bocian 2 seater to give him a glider pilots perspective.

No problem for him to fly it except lack of use of the rudders in a turn but the biggest comment was on the landing where he said you just flew it onto the ground.

This is largely true as when compared to a tail sitter (Auster) the glider fuselage sits on the ground almost at the normal flying angle.

If you really try to 'hold off' to virtually the stall angle, as the tug pilots do, the glider nose will drop at good 6 feet before the wheel touches the ground and you will likely break something... .

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'd agree with that and I'd have said head height at the most - and probably a lot less, but I think I was a late flarer if the slightly nervous comments from the hugely experienced national coach who took me on my instructors course were any guide - but it worked consistently for me. I liked to feel the tail skid tickle the grass fractionally before the main wheel touched.

[Peter Christy]

Over the years, I've taught quite a few people to fly models, both fixed wing and helicopter. Initially, the full size pilots had the most problems. Aside from the "control reverse" when viewed nose-in, the lack of any instruments or "seat of the pants" feeling for what the aircraft was doing was what threw them. However, once that hurdle had been overcome, they then progressed very quickly.

Going the other way, I was lucky enough to start full size flying when I was 16 (yes, it was a long time ago!) going solo shortly after my 17th birthday. I had no problem with the actual flying, other than judging the height of the flare on landing initially. On one occasion, I touched a bit early and the plane bounced. I instinctively shoved the nose down, caught it, re-flared and made a decent (2nd!) landing! The instructor asked me who had taught me to do that! I just said it was what I would do with a model in the same circumstances! He smiled and told me to keep on learning from the models!

Interestingly, this year marked the 50th anniversary of my first solo (full size). Although I haven't flown full size since 1968, I booked an hour "Air Experience" flight in a Cessna 152 at a local airfield by way of celebration. To my surprise, it all came back very quickly! In fact the instructor let me do the first take-off, which I managed OK, and was quite chuffed with! We did a few practice turns, and then stalls. The instructor lost 100 feet. I lost 110 feet! Not bad after a nearly 50 year lay-off! A few touch and goes and the hour was over far too quickly!

Am I tempted to take up full size again? NO! Why? For one reason, I could not believe the amount of traffic around what I remember as an abandoned airfield - and now a major hub for light aviation! It was like the M25 on Poet's Day, and you *really* needed to keep your eyes peeled. For a second reason, I firmly believe that you need to keep up a reasonable amount of "stick time" to remain proficient. I couldn't afford to do the hours that I would feel constituted a safe minimum. I would be the airborne equivalent of the little old lady who only takes her Morris Minor out on Bank Holidays!

But it was great fun for a one off, and something I would recommend to any enthusiastic model flyer to try at least once.

--

Pete

 

Edited By Peter Christy on 03/12/2017 23:32:57

[Rob Ashley]

Hi Peter. I must bow to your seniority sir as I wasn't born in 68. However, I'm really glad you enjoyed the full size flight and you can clearly still handle the aircraft - well done you. Most probably a lot of that was due to your competency in model flying. The handling side of flying models I think is the very essence of what the flying side of our hobby is about - pure flying skill (there are many others - building being one). I'm not a great believer in gyros (even for my helis) or other tech augmentation as I like to 'feel' a model and use my thumbs - I get why people do but I prefer not to. Are the skills transferable? - yes I think so.>>

I'm interested in your experience you list above as my model teaching experience highlighted that a full size aviator has habits when trying to learn to fly models - some of which need to be changed (we all have them but I am standing by for incoming rounds after that statement) in order to fly models well. They already have knowledge of aerodynamics, engines, principles of flight and (importantly) 'hands on' flying controls, so relating to that is the easy bit. However, they need to make the mental leap of having no cockpit feel, instruments and orientation (as you also found when teaching), but I found they have such a noticeable advantage - whereas the ab-inito modeller needed to learn everything from scratch - much harder I think. Mind you we are all different and learn different things at different rates. My children often remind me of this when I underperform playing video games with them. Some people I have taught pick it up really easily and others need more consolidation.>>

I think your piece of advice for modellers to try a full size flight is a good one. I see many modellers who don't quite understand the G loads imposed on an aircraft, impending stall or how to fly a balanced turn so first-hand experience of this can only make you a better model pilot. >>

I guess my summary would be that when transitioning either way from full size to models or vice versa one should have some transferable skill. My wife asked me once what enjoyment I get from models as opposed to full size - I answered that I have a love of everything that flies and I enjoy the feel of flight and being a pilot is something that defines me, but model aircraft are equally intoxicating, challenging to build (from scratch) and fly accurately is exciting and the hobby is full of others with the same outlook.>>

[kenking-King Design]

The most 'interesting' landing I witnessed, from a passenger seat, was at Edinburgh airport one evening, many years ago. It was obvious from the see-sawing and rocking that a trainee pilot had been given the opportunity to hone his skills : up untill the point , that is, that we were floating and gobbling up a lot of runway and he STILL hadn't negotiated the last ten feet - at which point reverse thrust was engaged (presumably by the senior pilot, to avoid a go-around) and that CERTAINLY dropped us out of the sky without ceremony. Having been following progress quite closely I knew what was coming, closed my eyes, and waited for it ! I was not disappointed ! It was testament to the constructors that both main undercarriage legs remained completely BELOW the wings. Great fun.

[Peter Christy]

Rob: Thank you for the kind words, and yes, it does seem as if our experiences of teaching full-size pilots show strong similarities. As I indicated, once the full-size pilots had overcome the lack of "feel" and instruments, they progressed very quickly. Going the other way, the biggest problem I found, is not being able to see the distance between wheels and ground when flairing! Judging that only comes with experience and practice.

Again, the actual flying of the aircraft is pretty much common between models and full-size. Full-size involves a *lot* more "systems management", monitoring airspeed, temperatures and pressures, fuel levels, other traffic, etc, etc. You also need to be very aware that a full size aircraft is nowhere near as robust as even the flimsiest model! You ignore its limits at your peril! In that respect, I would suggest that actually, flying a model is the purest from of piloting that you can get! You are simply flying the aircraft, without having to bother about the accompanying "systems management" - well, not too much, anyway!

And yes, anyone whose "Better Half" is wondering what to get them for Xmas or Birthday, suggest an hour "Air Experience" flight. You won't regret it!

--

Pete