RC Lander Hawker Hunter

[winchweight]

Hmmm.... a lot of money for a foamy though.

[scott cuppello]

160mm for me, 130mm is waaaay too far forward......so, who's going to fly first?! I have the day off tomorrow, so hopefully have some good news on Wednesday.

[Dusty]

Good luck with the maiden Scott! Get some vid if you can!

[Dusty]

Posted by Shaun Chant on 19/07/2009 21:35:15:

Hmmm.... a lot of money for a foamy though.

 Ya you not wrong there mate!

[scott cuppello]

Well, flown it, power wise, very scale with the motor timing set low, will try high timing for a little more speed, have all the ordanance fitted, so it's going to be draggy, main thing was C of G, 160mm I think is MINIMUM, I suspect we are going to end up at 165-170mm back, it was clearly nose heavy, which will also affect it's speed.....badly....flew nice enough, just needs tweaking now.

 

Also flew the SU34 with vectored thrust......going to take a little getting used to! What a load of fun though.

[Dusty]

 Sounds sweet, all home in one piece is the main thing! Having probs with my Lander fan re. the power, timing hi, timing low and I am not getting more than 750w peak off 6s, about a 50w difference. I tried 3 different esc to confirm, fair enough they same brand but they seem to be restricting the power, also cut off the auto cell detect and set it to 6s and still no joy...

 

both 3s packs in series were balanced last night, checked each cell and no drama's, on high timing max W at peak 754w at 34a - motor pulling 21.22v

 

I thought my f16 c of g was way out till checked it and flew again, putting the edf unit on the bench again was my answer to were is all my power?

 

Scott I look really forward to what results you get from this as we have a similar combo?

[scott cuppello]

The thing with the fan is that testing is done on 30c packs, voltage drop on 20-25c packs is going to shave off a few watts [amps], as I said, the main point with this fan for me is amps, the Hunter doesn't need [especially given the C of G being forward] a whopping big 4s pack like the Panther, in fact, it would kill performance on the Hunter....now....the 4s fan draws big amps and needs a large lipo to cope....see where I'm coming from? Overall performance given the big picture, power/AUW/C of G means the 6s set up is the way to go for me, however, high C rating packs will be needed to get the best from the fan.

[Dusty]

Seen

[Grant Wright - Mr Foamyjets]

Dusty,

 

Those figures concern me.... In my flown hunter i am gettng the following on 20C pack

 

2 x 3s1p 3000Mah Turnigy packs

Watts=1053

Amps=54

Volts= 19.5 this means i am loosing less than .5 volts PER CELL on 20C packs. and gaining a lot more watts then you.

I am using a Black Mantis 85amp esc, on default settings.

This drops down to 990 watt after 30 secs and it has serious perfomance, i have also tested another identical fan on the same setup and achieveing the same results,this is the Lander 6s1p 2185kv fan unit

 

regards

Grant

 

[Dusty]

Dear dusty,

according to your new setting that is correct..our 6S version peak watt is around 750w. We really ensure the performance from the lower current around 34-36A to gain the thrust power upto 1.5 - 1.58kg.

 

My personal opinion of our 6S version is the best selection for our F-16 & F9F-2 also Hawker Hunter right now. It can be brought the speed and torque power for the jet and more flying time.

Thanks.
Tim

 

A reply email from a very kind Mr Tim Wan of lander,

 

so this is from the boss, possibly a ESC  ( 100A Super Simple) restriction in my case? Grants figures are what I was expecting, even though lander state those, BRC say 900w and settle 880w on thier 6s (fair enough Kokam 30c) but i doubt my new FlightMax 25c packs that will have a effect if GW is getting those results from 20c packs? The cells on these packs are fine and even under load a 21.22v draw from the source "working at WOT" is fine ... so WTH?  Have i got a very expensive park jet?

Edited By Dusty on 22/07/2009 21:26:59

Edited By Dusty on 22/07/2009 21:35:33

[Grant Wright - Mr Foamyjets]

Dusty,

 

we have two choices of what the problem is.

 

A...... esc restricting the rpms

B......fan unit i different kv then mine

 

It is NOT your cells because they are higher rated than mine and the fact you loosing less than 1VOLT over 6 cells tells meteynot even under any strain.

I can only comment on my tried and tested results.

 

GW

 

[Dusty]

A. Yes, shall I send it back to supplier for testing?

B. Buy a new ESC for test myself?

C. Hope for some other people to input on thier specs?

 

D. Timbo/pollyguy prob want to make  a new forum for Lander EDF units as drifting off topic, dont want to Hijak another thread.. sorry, mods see as fit as could be a process

[Tim Mackey]

Doesnt warrant a whole section to itself I am afraid - this is EDF section, so thats fine.

 

As to your problem... my guess would be a different wind motor in your fan unit to that  of Grants. Obviously this is only guessing, but as you have actually already tried several different ESCs with the same results it sounds more feasible. Also, although ESCs do vary a bit on timing etc, the difference in current and watts is so great, that I doubt its the ESC. 

2185 Kv is pretty hot for a large fan unit on 6s  - no wonder the power is so high

Just my 2p

[Dusty]

Timbo I understand, I am trying to come accross as not to offend anybody, simlpy where are my WATTS?? LOL Well if we  have a different wound motor, possibility, I would hope the 2185kv stamp on the £90 motor and edf are ligit (well its not sweating under load anyways)... I have battered my head all day changing ESC, lipos, wires and still my test results remain  constant.. I am peaking 750W on high timing (its a Inrunner and recommended) LOW timing which is giving me 45-50W less... So where grant is getting his figures tells me my ESC  is restricting current (2x 100A & 1 x 60A esc tested on), Brc say 900W settling at 880w  (Hope they can post some figures and hardware),  TIm Wan of RC Lander says(see reply) 3 posts above... Tim 2p's add up... one day I will be rich

[Tim Mackey]

Ah so the motor is stamped 2185Kv...sounds like thats not the issue then

Stiil odd though that RC Lander themselves reckon your figures are correct...so just how is Scott and Grant getting so much current through these things - against the supposed design spec?

[Dusty]

Well Tim, GW has said he is using 20c packs  and a black mantis esc, but ... I am goosed to why

 

25c packs me...

 

Scotts reply flight perormance from the Hunter sounded much alike mine on the F-16I...

 

Grant has posted his figs,

 

I have posted mine.

 

I have checked wiring Double ( resoldered even) , changed the AUG of the wire i am not getting anything more.... what to do?, " emotion needed of guy banging wall with head"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tim Mackey]

here ya go mate

 

[Dusty]

Tim, no nicotine in that lol.. This is not going to happen on this thread, on the darkside  for this now, maybe better there unless UK distributers figures can answer why?

[scott cuppello]

How as this ended up at this stage? ESC restricting the fan?....eh? I will stress once again, this is VOLTAGE DROP, as Tim from Lander states, the figures will be correct on those Lipo packs, 30c will increase it no doubt [900w quoted is MAXIMUM....needless to say, if it's pushed to excessive amps, expect it to pop]....Grant glosses over the fact that he using 3000mAh packs...........higher capacity packs will have the same effect as higher C rated packs of the same capacity....little voltage drop. Stop fretting, you have not bought a donkey.....look at your amps, we state 34A, as does Lander [I really wouldn't want to be banging 50+A through this].

 

The figures are a guideline only, we often get the opposite problem, for instance, power on the HET 2W-20/HET 6904 is quoted at the factory [guideline] as 700w, however, I have had customers making 1kw....and this is because of zero voltage sag in the packs [usually a result of using large, high C rated packs]....then we have the opposite problem!

 

Again, my original post points out what the concept of this fan is about, low current draw for smaller packs, lower airframe weight and longer flight times.....let me stress again, if Lander say around 34A and you bang 50+ amps through it......not only is the fan likely to not last long, but you are now back to the drawing board, to handle 50+ amps you are going to need something bigger than a 3000mAh 20c pack!!! That pack is only rated for 60A constant....so, it will be faster.....with a 2 min flight time and higher AUW on a nose heavy airframe....sounds great.

 

Let's have it right, 750w on a 3.5lb airframe is hardly shabby!

Edited By Scott Cuppello - BRC on 23/07/2009 09:55:32

[Grant Wright - Mr Foamyjets]

Gents,

 

It has had me worried this motor/fan dilemma so i did some research and have found  the answer.

 

Dusty the reason you fan is down is because they brought out a fan unit that not only gave the same performance as the 4s1p version but pulled less amps. BUT is also able to accept 7S1P to give you over 1000 watts!!!

Anyone getting under 900 watts is using the 2185kv fan anyone getting over 1000 watts on 6s1p i using the 2399kv fan

 

Dusty send it back and it will be replaced free of charge for the hotter fan

 

Grant

 

[Grant Wright - Mr Foamyjets]

Scott,

 

it isnot about the C Rating as Dusty's pack's are holding over 22volts were mine are down to 19.5volts and i a getting a lot more watts, the 6s1p fan has 2 types of motor, the original were te 2399kv and now they supplied with the 2185kv motors.

 This was to drop the amp draw and allow longer flight times

 

Tim' comments dont stack up on the followng basis.

 

How can  the same 68mm fan unit at the same amount of watts produce more thrust just because it has 6 cells. same watts for same fan produce same thrust no matter what the motor is.

Yes you very right on the HET motors very under rated

 

Regarding the amps these fans can handle, it is well above 50aps+

The 4s1p fan unit if used with 30C packs that you state are required, assuming you only loose 1VOLT across the pack will give the following figure

 

882watts divided by 15.8volts(actual voltage of my 2200 4s1p 30c pack) means 58amps!

Lander recommend 25c-30c packs which means they would be getting similar figures .

 

 

Regards

Grant

 

 

[scott cuppello]

I'm not getting into this on a public forum, suffice to say;

 

1 - Tim designed the fan, I suspect he has a good idea that the figures are correct.

 

2 - NONE of these fans are designed for 7s, and reccomended max amps quoted on ANY of the Lander 68mm unit's is 50A. LOOK AT THE INFORMATION SUPPLIED BY LANDER.

 

3 - To dismiss C ratings .......well, do I really need to explain that?

 

4 - You contradict yourself, you get over 1kw on the same kv as Dusty....then tell us it's a 7s fan? I'm lost. I'm also lost as to how you have managed to get higher wattage than anybody else at a lower voltage on the same kv? Have you had your amp meter calibrated recently?

 

Let's leave it there.....all getting silly.

[Grant Wright - Mr Foamyjets]

Posted by Scott Cuppello - BRC on 23/07/2009 10:30:02:

I'm not getting into this on a public forum, suffice to say;

 

1 - Tim designed the fan, I suspect he has a good idea that the figures are correct.

 

2 - NONE of these fans are designed for 7s, and reccomended max amps quoted on ANY of the Lander 68mm unit's is 50A. LOOK AT THE INFORMATION SUPPLIED BY LANDER.

 

3 - To dismiss C ratings .......well, do I really need to explain that?

 

4 - You contradict yourself, you get over 1kw on the same kv as Dusty....then tell us it's a 7s fan? I'm lost. I'm also lost as to how you have managed to get higher wattage than anybody else at a lower voltage on the same kv? Have you had your amp meter calibrated recently?

 

Let's leave it there.....all getting silly.

 

Scott,

 

i am not getting into anything mate. Simply stating the figures i have got as well as others.

 

1 Tim may have designed it but as you know manufactureres figures are not always as stated on boxes etc

2 The 7s information came directly from the distributor as he has exactly the same figures and he explained this to me as the reason

3 C ratings are important BUT if the pack is a lower C rating but holding a higher voltage it does not come into play self explaintory. whether this is because of capacity or anything else doesnt really matter,its the voltage it s providing under load that counts.

4 Not contricting myself, as i explained i have a 2399kv motor in mine and dusty the new lower 2185kv in his, this explains how his higher  voltage but lower watts as my motor is the hotter version.

 

The purpose of ths forum as far as i am aware is to enlighten and help people who are experiencing problems and issue wth there models and gear. I believe that is what we are both doing.

Regarding calibration of my wattsmeter.... I have 3 and all produce the same figures a i thought at the beginning this may be the problem. it is not.

So dont stop talking about it please we providing people with valuable information......

 

 

kindest regards

 

Grant

 

 

[Dusty]

Morning all

 

Posted by Grant Wright - Mr Foamyjets on 23/07/2009 09:48:32:

Gents,

 

It has had me worried this motor/fan dilemma so i did some research and have found  the answer.

 

Dusty the reason you fan is down is because they brought out a fan unit that not only gave the same performance as the 4s1p version but pulled less amps. BUT is also able to accept 7S1P to give you over 1000 watts!!!

Anyone getting under 900 watts is using the 2185kv fan anyone getting over 1000 watts on 6s1p i using the 2399kv fan

 

Dusty send it back and it will be replaced free of charge for the hotter fan

 

Grant

 

 Thanks Grant I will get the fan out the model and return it to you tommorow.

 

750w on a 1.3kg  (AUW) f16 is not a lot of power IMO, yes it flies, scale like but its not got the top end. But thats just me and I prefer to have more power in the reserve....

 

 

[Grant Wright - Mr Foamyjets]

Gents,

 

Just got off the phone with Scott, He has cleared up a lot of questions i had and its seems highly likely i have a overwound motor, and judging by other figures on the net, the 800+ watts is what is expected from this unit.

The whole idea of the newer wind is to maintain same watts for less amps to allow a smaller pack to bring the whole model weight down and make CG more achieveable especially in the Hunter's case.

 

I think we have discussed this enough now. will test a 2nd unit i have in stock next week when i get a chance.

 

regards

 

Grant