Hangar 9 Sopwith Camel

[Tim Mackey]

heres some pictures with dimensions. Its the rear port strut which seems wrong - the wing holes are all equally spaced. The rear port strut, if bent to line up with the hole will be around 18mm short IYSWIM.

[Danny Fenton]

Ahh so not only can you get them in the wrong position, you can get them upside down too, is that right? or do the angles at the ends preclude that?

 

If the wing holes are square/rectangular 140 x 280 then can you not cut a pice of card that size as a template and then juggle the struts accordingly?

 

The last picture looks correct, the previous looks like the front and rear need swapping or am I over simplifying things lol (I usually do)

 

It is possible they have given you a mixed incomplete set, are they paired exactly?

 

D

[Richard Robertson]

is it me, or is the offending rear strut a different colour/wood type???

[Terry Whiting]

Tim,  I'm a bit of a bi-plane freak, so I'm told, I just   em,  but all mine have been plan built. For accurate cabanes I make a jig to that of the plan with it's incidence and wing attachment holes. My fuselage is set dead level on the lower wing seat, then     depending on the fuselage my jig is either clamped or temporary glued. I then make my cabanes to fit.  What the hell is going on with your's is unbelievable for a supposedly tried and tested kit.

 

Maybe a jig will be your answer too.

[Tim Mackey]

They cant be fitted upside down as the tabs at the ends are way different yes.

Card template could be simpler I guess than using the actual wing.

Top tab angle of strut determines front pair...and I think that swap was done earlier

There appears to be  2 x exact same pairs ( I have carefully measured them all on the bench.

All three vary slightly on wood / varnish shade.

Terry.. I will send a cab for you mate

As you say, this sort of palave just should not happen with a so called ARTF kit.

I think I will try what I said earlier - fit lower wing and interplane struts, then see how things shape up. I am obviously concerned that this is crucial to getting the wings set right, and if the incidences are out, or a panel is slightly warped or twisted through poor alignment then the maiden flight could be its last. 

 

[martyn sharp]

Timbo i am so glad you are doing this review, build blog i got this model a year or so back as part of my to do  later list (getting the models while I still am working ) so this will help when I get around to stating it i have always thought hanger 9 were top quality.

 

I  have seen other build blogs they all seem to have problems so I guess your not alone all the best and I do like your plan with the Power pack .

 

Martyyn  

 

     

[Tim Mackey]

Martyn... I too have had this one in the box for ages

( it was Xmas present from SWMBO in 2007 ! ) Hopefully, I will sort this particular issue over the weekend, and then we can crack on with the rest, which will hopefully be trouble free. I have a few mods planned for other areas too such as the rigging etc - mine will not fit in my car at all, so will need rigging /de-rigging on every trip, so somethings will have to be modified to make that easier.

Are you going leccy then ?

[martyn sharp]

   Timbo yes I am going  leccy  that's all i do now  I have a durasky 840 kv with a 4s for it but might pinch your idea about the power plant so I will follow your progress with interests. If you are going to the southern show I will get a sticky bun 

Martyn    

[Brian Parker]

Timbo,
Have just dug out, and re-read, Pete Lowe's review of the Camel, RCME October 2007 and can only conclude that you must have incorrect parts.

 His only gripe is on the use of imperial fittings.

[Tim Mackey]

Yes I have that mag here. Of course, it could also be that he was just lucky, and got his struts in the right palce first time... my real gripe is the fact that they are subtly different but not marked in any way ! of course, this also menas that I remain hopeful that it is indeed a case of me not having them correctly placed, but as time and trials move forward, this seems less likely

Martyn... too far for me darn sarf I am afraid - next and final show for me this year is the Rufforth LMA.  Anyone doing mail order sticky buns ?

PS the 840 Kv on 4s Lipo may be a bit too high revving and thirsty. The amps you can control, by propping down, but then you might find the thrust / pitch is wrong. I think if I were choosing again, I would go to about 600 Kv on 4s lipo or 5 s Life, as I am slightly worried that the big 16" prop I am planning to swing may have adverse torque roll effect

[Tim Mackey]

OK, did nothing on it over the weekend for various reasons, but this morning decided a plan of action. I want to get the bird sitting on its undercarriage, tail feathers fitted ( which should hopefully be symmetrical and at the correct incidence to datum line of fus due to its simple method of attachment) and both wings joined and ready to fit. This way, I can then attach the bottom wing, checking its symmetrically aligned with the tailplane - whilst the model sits flat and firm on a level surface. Then I shall attach the interplane struts to the lower wing, and sit the top wing in place - after first removing all the attached cabane struts AGAIN .

Then I can trial fit each cabane piece and see what fits best and where that will arrive at the top wing sitting equally spaced from the lower, and also be able to take some reference measurements from the top wing tips to tailplane, to again, ensure symmetry.

I decided first to do something which hopefully would be straightforward - the undecarriage.

Again. all the fixing holes, and retaining strap screw holes were clogged with varnish and needed reaming out with a small twist drill. The tail skid went on with no issues, and I then set about the mains. The sytem is designed around rubber O rings stretched over the axle ends and around locating pins fittted to each strut. The one piece metal axle ( with aerofoil shaped small wing attached ) is prevented from rotating within the legs by fitting a metal collar with a square section that "slides" up and down within the struts, against the tension of the O rings. Be careful to ensure these collars are fitted equidistant at each axle end or there is insufficient axle protruding to then fit the huge wheels on after. This neccesitates forcing the main legs inwards before clamping the collars in the correct place with small set screws, screwed onto flats filed in the axle ends. Unfortunately, this strong tension of the legs being bent in as described, causes considerable friction of the metal collars against the brackets, so a smooth springing action is hard to achieve. However, after all was assembled, I applied a little oil to the assembly ( and the wheel bearings ) and there does appear to be some limited suspension action. Heres a few more pictures of the procedure.

  

Incidentally, as be seen clearly here, the wheels have an inner and outer face - the manula shows the disk withy the screws in as being outer... but to my mind this is wrong - the ribbed perimeter should surely be outer.

 

 

 

      Those wheels are HUGE and should prove ideal for our grass strip

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 27/07/2009 14:30:06

[Terry Whiting]

Tim,

 

Pictures I seen of all  the Sopwiths, have the domed side is the outside. The Williams scale wheel has the dome outside also has a access hole and valve for tyre inflation 

The only picture of a Camel with the wheels A A face is one in America.   Nuff said.

[Tim Mackey]

[Danny Fenton]

Do you need a top wing Timbo?

[Tim Mackey]

At 9lb+ .....somehow, I think I might

[Danny Fenton]

No Sense of adventure.......

[Tim Mackey]

OK...spent most of the afternoon trial fitting the tail and wings etc, and then decided to make up the wing servo harness. The manual suggests 2 x 18" servo extension cables, but I never use extension leads - preferring instead the integrity of hard wired extension cable soldered to the original servo leads. I then terminate any leads whic need plugging into the Rx each time with Ashlok locking connectors, again for extra security. I added approx 18" to the servo cables, and fitted the male half of the ashlok to each one. I then made up a simple "Y" lead, fitted a servo connector at one end, and the other 2 x femal halves of the ashloks to the branches.

For those interested in radio installation techniques etc, heres the pictures

 Upon unscrewing and removing the prefitted hatches from the wing apertures, one was found to be quite badly warped

I then fitted the mounting block fixings to the hatches with a single screw through the hatch and into the block, as well as glueing them to the hatch. Heavy weights applied to the warped hatch as the glue on the blocks set took out most of the warping. The servos were then mounted to the blocks using proper rubber mounting grommets, and the output horns were trimmed and fitted after centralizing the arms via the radio system. Ensure you fish out the servo cables through the correct hole in the wing root rib as they will not pass through into the fuselage if in the wrong hole. Pity Hangar 9 had not preinstalled "fish strings" to aid in this as most ARTFs seem to do these days. Instead you need to poke a long pushrod and clevis up the wing, through the various rib holes, and pull the leads back through via that

 

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 29/07/2009 11:52:43

[Tim Mackey]

Having moved onto something which would hopefully be straightforward, I got up fairly early today, and started work on her again at around 6.30 AM.  I then encountered what I consider to be a pretty poor method of fixing the lower wings. Instructions call for inserting the supplied wing main spar tube into one panel and fixing in place with a screw. The hole for where this screw is supposed to go is pre-marked on the wing underside but not on the tube, so you are required to insert the tube and drill through, and then tap the hole. Of course, not being metric threads means you either have to get the correct sized imperial tap 40-4 ( whatever that means ) or use an alternative screw. Once this spar is attached to this wing panel, there are then 3 further holes to be drilled and tapped in the main spar and incidence tubes to both locate, and secure the two panels in place. The method of rigging and de-rigging this bird means that to fit the lower wing panels each time ( which is necessary otherwise it wont fit in my car ) requires these other three screws to be removed and reinserted each time. Small fiddly little things that they are, I can see them easily disappearing into the grass - so at the very least larger screws are advisable. Trouble is, the main spar tube ( and the other two incidence tubes ) is merely thin walled round  hollow metal tubing, and to my mind, attempting to get a good thread, and secure purchase of the screw when inserted into a thin walled hollow tube is a non starter. This is made even worse by the need to keep inserting and removing said screw each time the model is transported. Because of the dihedral angle of the lower wing, the tube protrudes from the panel at an angle, and is located inside the panel by a fibreglass tube at the same angle. Drilling and tapping the tube accurately is therefore not easy… and sure enough my first attempt resulted in the drill wandering all over the place, and the hole in the wing wood section quickly became elongated. Another example I am afraid of poor design - and also not a convenient way of attaching detaching the wings anyway. Why on earth did they not use a larger sized, square section tube, with a hard insert at the drilling points, instead??

This would have solved all these issues, and also set the incidence at the same time.

The attempt at tapping the round tube also resulted ( almost inevitably ) in a sloppy oversized hole in the tube, and in frustration, I pulled the lot back out and had a re-think. I decided to “plug” the ends of the hollow tube with an epoxy and glass powder mix, which would hopefully provide a better threaded hole for the larger ( 4mm ) machine screws which I intended to use. I pushed some blu-tak into the ends, down past the already bodged screw hole, and did the same at the other end, in prep for the locating hole at that point which would be required after the other panel was fitted. I then mixed up some slow set epoxy with glass powder ( Bolly models product ) and filled the tube ends, sealing the ends with tape until the glue hardened.

Warning rant alert 

I came in for breakfast, feeling yet again, that I was not particularly enjoying this build - in fact, I am seriously beginning to lose my enthusiasm for building at all, and am wondering just how long I am likely to remain acquiring kits in the future

I am definitely feeling that I enjoy the flying far more than the building. Yet it was not always this way - indeed, I found building more traditional kits such as the Chris Foss range ( of which I have done many over the years gone by ) and even full scratch built plan stuff far easier and more rewarding than these so called ARTF things!

People may knock them, but let me tell you, the sheer simplicity  of just throwing a foamy slope model in the car boot, and throwing it off into the breeze for hours of simple flying / combat fun is hard to beat.

Whats more, the straightforward assembly of said model is a joy also, especially in the case of somethong like the SAS Wildthing. We should remember that in most cases, the main part of this hobby for many of us is the actual flying, not the seemingly constant struggle with poor design, bad manuals, ill fitting parts, and substandard quality of fittings - all too common it seems in these mass produced ARTF models.

 

I shall now ponder an alternative way of securing the wings, that does not involve removing and replacing 3 more silly little tiny screws at the field each time, after all, the cabane struts, interplane struts, and cross wire rigging all has to be removed and refitted every time also

 

On reflection, I must admit an error of judgemnent on my part - this was a poor choice of model for myself, due to lack of transportation space and is definately not one to have unless you can keep it ready rigged at all times

 

...something to bear in mind.... thats if you even still fancy one .

[Ultymate]

Tim on some of the AH Designs kits we used to position a length of wooden dowel or in the case of large wing tubes ie 1.5" a piece of broom handle inside the tube and use coarse thread self tapping screws for the location. Also once the hole is made and tapped harden the wood with the application of cyno

[Tim Mackey]

TY Brian... I will see how the glas/epoxy works, and if I end up reaming it all out, I may well turn down an ali "plug" and secure that inside the tube and drill and tap that instead.The bigger puzzle is how to adapt the system to allow easier de-rigging TBH. I am thinking I may extend the incidence tubes with a solid rod inserted into each panel long enough to reach the centreline of the fus - and one of them  milled flat at the end like a tongue to locate into a mating slot cut in the other. That way, they could be locked together with a single screw inserted from above, centrally, from within the fus. I will try and mock something up graphically, and then you guys can tell me if you think it will work

[Tim Mackey]

Heres a couple of ideas.

Plan A

leave the main spar in one piece, permanently fitted to one wing panel. Fit through tube in fus as original plan, and then the other panel is push fitted onto that spar, but not fixed as such. Extend the two small incidence tube stubs with solid aluminium inner rods, and use a tongue and groove style fitting in the centre - accessed through fus top. This would be all that holds the wings in place against the side of the fus, plus of course the friction of the main spar tube fit itself.

Advantage - one screw inside fus centre holds it all in place

Disadvantage - would this suffice to hold it all in place, and it would be at the rear section of the wing chord rather than the front

 

Plan B. Cut main spar in half infill the tube ends with dowel / metal insert whatever...- permanently fix each spar piece in each wing panel. 

Epoxy  2 "collars" over the fibreglass spar tube within the fus and drill through collar, tube, and spars - tapped for 4 mm screw down into each spar half.

Rear incidence tubes as plan A

 

Adavantage - wing now held in both front and rear - total 3 screws

Disadvantage - more work of course, and main spar now in two pieces

Any thoughts chapps...or indeed alternative ideas?

I am off up the slope for a bit of R+R away from the shop for an hour or two

 

- more later

 

 

 

                                   Planned modification

 

 

 

 

 

                                  .........Plan B -  Further mods

[Ultymate]

Firstly whichever route you take I don't think I would be cutting the mainspar in two. Secondly I have a question, how functional is the rigging as this can considerably add to the "holding together" of a biplane, my last bipe a third scale Ultimate had the lower wing halves held on the alloy tube soley by the flying wires.

 

P.S. enjoy the Orme

Edited By Ultymate on 29/07/2009 14:36:46

Edited By Ultymate on 29/07/2009 14:37:40

[Terry Whiting]

Tim,

 

If it was my problem I would leave the spar well alone.

 

I would make an aluminium brace which would be long enough to span the fuselage and just reach the first two wing ribs past the root rib. The wing covering would be cut to allow two 4mm ply plates which would be made to fit between the root rib and the second rib.

The aluminium brace would be let flush into the fuselage and shaped  to the wing's dihedral, it would be drilled half way between the root rib and second rib.

Place the ply plates in ther respective positions, over lay the aluninium brace and mark the holes, remove ply plates, drill  and fix captive nuts.

Do a dry run by and screw in the bolts, mark position of ply plate positions, and remove.

now glue in the ply plates to their respective marks, and add any reinforcement deemed necessary.

Make good the wing covering and paint aluminium brace to match.  

 

 

Edited By Terry Whiting on 29/07/2009 18:35:47

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by Ultymate on 29/07/2009 14:36:21:

Firstly whichever route you take I don't think I would be cutting the mainspar in two. Secondly I have a question, how functional is the rigging as this can considerably add to the "holding together" of a biplane, my last bipe a third scale Ultimate had the lower wing halves held on the alloy tube soley by the flying wires.

 

P.S. enjoy the Orme

Edited By Ultymate on 29/07/2009 14:36:46

Edited By Ultymate on 29/07/2009 14:37:40

 The main rigging is entirely non - functional - only the tail rigging is actually structural.

Terry, I will digest this plan, after tea - just got in from a good slope session

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 29/07/2009 19:10:57

[ken anderson.]

timbo-please dont cut the main spar-when i read your plan-i just seen the fly-fly hawk go by the pc screen......try plan b,c or d.....even buy a bigger transporter......

 

  ken anderson.............