The incredibly difficult A test

[David Turner]

I advocate local control and the active involvement of club members in the day-to-day running of their clubs. That's not anarchy, that's democracy. 

 

Believe it, or not, people get along without the influence of the Achievement Scheme...which has only recently become all-pervading.

 

The present system requires that the individual flyer abdicates responsibility to a self-appointed over-seeing body...and he has no influence over that over-seeing body; the BMFA.

 

I reckon that any half-decent club can instigate an appropriately configured set of criteria for regulating its own membership. They were doing this years before the AS was invented.

 

I'll be quite honest with you. I don't want faceless, unelected individuals determining the future of my hobby.

 

 

Edited By David Turner on 16/10/2009 11:56:07

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

This is getting rather interesting!  David has raised some thought provoking points and they are worth considering carefully.

 

We certainly need to be aware of any effects that our actions can have on the "big brother" state that we're becoming.  I don't feel that adoption of a national "standard" but with local interpretation is necessarily a bad way to go and it certainly worked well for the British Gliding Association for many decades where other than complying with the ANO all control of gliding was devolved to them from the CAA e.g. no formal licensing required and general adoption of the A , Bronze Silver Gold Diamond "achievement" schemes administered by a network of instructors and official observers.

 

I believe that despite this,  the EU have managed to undermine an excellent system which has worked extremely well with the introduction of the EASA which is already having negative impacts on the freedom of gliding and general aviation in this country but this is something we've allowed to happen through stumbling blindly towards a European "Super State" but that's a whole different subject aqnd don't get me started....

 

Efforts do need to be made to make the scheme level nationally and there may well be improvents needed. I believe the subject is under active consideration.

 

I'm not sure why David feels that the BMFA is undemocratic - the scheme administrators and officials of the BMFA are all elected to their posts - they have of course appointed full time professional staff for day to day admin - and these posts are open to any member should they wish to make the effort to get involved and stand for election.  Whether the membership can be bothered to exercise their democratic rights is another matter - I hope most of you made the small effort to vote in the recent election just to reinforce your rights but i don't anticipate seeing a great improvement in previous pathetic returns!

 

As a club chairman, I'm certainly aware of some of the issues that arise locally and appreciate that a lot of decisions need to have consideration of local issues and requirements and we don't slavishly follow every edict and recommendation from the BMFA.  However, we do consider any of these on their merits carefully.

 

We have adopted the A for solo policy as we feel it is a good basis for establishing basic competency and something of benefit to members should they wish to fly elsewhere and expect visiting pilots to comply with these requirements. Testing is readily available should they want to take the test but we would also allow someone to fly with supervision to an appropriate degree. For example, we had a visiting Israeli pilot of very good standard a couple of years ago who contacted us and asked if he could fly from our site and after briefing him on local requirements we allowed him to demonstrate his flying freely and without interference but with the informal presence on the flightline of a competent club member.  Of course, had his personal assessment of his abilities not come up to scratch, other action or assistance would have been on hand!

 

Perhaps we're luckier than most in having 2 members of the achievement scheme committee (one is an ACE as well) within our membership (I'm not amongst them, I hasten to add) but I do know the calibre of these people and therefore feel that the scheme is in good hands if the rest of the committee is to the same standard.

 

 

[Clive Matthews]

I have to comment on the response David Turner's well argued post received.

 

To use the term 'advocating anarchy' in this way approaches 'McCarthyism'. I was impressed by David's calm and measured response to such an unwarrented, ill measured and offensive post. Personally, in a debate like this, I would give more attention to posters who are not hiding their identity.

 

The BMFA may well have a democratic structure in place, but the 'old boy' network still prevails. If you don't agree with aspects of local or national policy, your face won't fit.

 

It is happening now! The A certificate is being pushed forward by clubs as a licence. This is all well and good for the weekend flyer at a well ordered club with plenty of examiners available. If the rest are forced to fly elsewhere in public places for example then there will be another serious accident. The only unmeasurable is when. Such an event will be far more likely to provoke the 'big brother' reaction that seems to be feared than someone stuffing their plane in a private club field.

Edited By Clive Matthews on 16/10/2009 15:42:05

[flytilbroke]

I can imagine CM, that you refer to me? My photo IS on my post. I also am known to quite a few of the forumites personally. Hide I do not.

 

I gave reasons for keeping the guidelines and also referred to the narrow anti-BMFA view displayed on a regular basis, a true view, and in I believe "the minority".

 

DT is quite capable of standing up for himself.

 

Democratic? rather limited when it is only applied at a local level. Even a much larger voting group within the area known as Britain needs to have some Central authority to set guidlines. Take the self imposed guidelines of the "local Westminster mob" as an example. We all know how that has worked.

 

So we could reach the stage of hundreds of clubs saying Nope, you can't fly here, to visitors who have different rules at THIER club as they, the visitors, dont agree that they should in any way have any form of restriction applied which differs from thier own.

 

I have yet to see however unlikely, that the SAA or the BMFA have any desire to dictate to individual and collective model flyers all the criteria which they MUST follow.

 

Old boys network? are they only voted in by themselves? We ALL if members, have an equal vote and it is our vote if used, which says who will be elected to represent us,

 

Exactly the same argument about "old boys" is often the case at club level too. Don't like them? Vote them out or better still stand for election. Don't run away complaining just because the majority would rather have what you don't like.

 

We need central guidelines, we need central negotiation with other National Authorities. We will not be listened to as individuals, or as Individual clubs, other than at local level and often not even then.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Couple of things I don't understand, Clive. 

 

Why would anyone be driven away from a club by the need for an A.  Quite frankly, if someone is not capable of passing the A they're unlikely to be safe to be flying on their own!  Pupils, in my experience, have usually wanted the reassurance of having someone to intervene or assist and once off the buddy lead should not be far from A standard anyway. I do appreciate that there are one or two who will suffer from "test nerves" but good instructors/examiners will help them through this. As a club, we most certainly wouldn't want to drive members to fly elsewhere but we do need to safeguard our site by ensuring a level of competence before allowing people to operate alone.

 

To get back to the original post, I don't advocate the A as a blanket test for all fliers but I really can't see why a club with its own examiners shouldn't reasonably ask visiting pilots to either take the test or fly with a supervising member until they are able to. To allow visitors to circumvent club requirements will undermine the validity of expecting members to go through the procedure themselves.

 

Accidents, especially those involving the public, are a major hazard to our continuing enjoyment of the hobby and self-regulation is by far the best way to avoid unwanted legislation.  By clubs insisting on measures such as A tests (or their own internal versions) they are going some way to raise general standards.  Certainly, the contrast between my experiences 35 odd years ago before the BMFA or testing of any sort and my return to modelling 8 years ago are quite dramatic.  I recall at least 2 direct hits on members of the public, one at the patch and one at the only public event I attended, thankfully without injury, and generally far less attention to operating safely.

 

I'm afraid I've never had much sympathy with people who say that an "old boy network" or similar prevents progress - they often seem to be the ones who moan the most but are unwilling to make any personal effort to change the status quo. Clive, please don't take this as being intended to be any sort of observation on you as I know nothing about you - it's just a generalisation and I do appreciate that not everyone is in a position to take action.

 

As I've said before,  David's post does raise some interesting points and although I don't totally agree with all of them they are well worth debating.

[Lee Smalley]

well said FTB im with you some people take great delight comming on and dropping hand grenades around, some people also read too much into this and we have had people comming on hear with all sorts of theories as to the great nanny state and the evil of the BMFA and their dark intentions, but i suppose their will allways be people who see more into things than they actually are!

 

the point of this is this, Together we are stronger, no club or governing body is perfect but when dealing with other public body any national society is better than none and the A certificate which this post is supposed to be about !!! is just a simple way of demonstrating basic abilities that helps to smooth things with councils etc and also helps to improve basic standards in the club, it totally voluntary and is not mandatory, anyone who does not want to do this basic test for whatever reason can go fly at a different club or on their own. stop claiming that its a big conspiricy or somthing, it aint !!

 

As has been said on her a few times already " if you don't like the rules or the way its done at a certain club, don't join or leave"

Edited By Lee Smalley on 16/10/2009 17:38:14

[Clive Matthews]

Glad to hear that you are known to quite a few forumites personally, not all 'old boys' I trust!

 

You believe lack of democracy and accountability in the BMFA to be a minority view - I have no way of conducting a national poll but you may be correct. Such a view is then wrong?  Surely a forum such as this is helpful in promoting views and forming opinions. I critisised your post because I feel you were using(and continue to use) emotive terms instead of making clear points. You claim that my views are anti BMFA. You are so wrong. I am a supportive member of the BMFA. You state that you don't agree with all that the BMFA does - who would? I merely want to present an alternative point of view!

 

Narrow view! - devisive language painting a negative picture of such a view? I note that you have not read my posts or refered to the points made in them! This narrows down the discussion to points that you want to discuss. I want to discuss the fact that the A test is becoming compulsary on the basis of safety. I have suggested why I think that this view is wrong. Why can't we discuss this as well. You are narrowing down the discussion yourself! I am disappointed that the level of debate of the most vocal posters is to repeatedly present their view without considering and reasoning another point of view, or worse, just considering their own views. Now that is undemocratic.

 

DT can stand up for himself? Maybe, I was commenting on the response. I do support his view.

 

Presumably your club has a perfect and democratic system? You paint me as someone who moans without trying to improve from within. This is incorrect and is an assumption that you seem to be making about all who post an alternative view to your own.

 

Central guidlines - central negotiation! Great but we are a minority interest within much larger and better prepared groups. The A test arguement has little to do with this area. I realise that the implication is that we all stand together with our little cards in our hands and say we are responsible. My argument is that this won't make us responsible, safe and politically wise.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Clive Matthews]

Between answering flytilbroke and posting, yet 2 more posts arrive. At least Martin is reading and asking question pertinent to my opinions, thank you. Yet again Lee shows lack of tolerence towards opposing viewpoints. This discussion is getting to the point where it will be forced to end, but before it does let me explain Lee.

 

I have never stated that 'the BMFA is evil' this is offensive to me. I am a member and supporter of the BMFA. I have constantly stated that i support the achievement scheme. I have said that where a club has such a rule AND has suitable examiners available, OK. I don't agree but I accept that it is up to them. I have said that I find the BMFA suffers from an 'Old Boys' network.

 

Why would anyone be driven away from a club for a lack of an A cert Martin? When I started flying, I was a 'Country Member'. I flew (electrics) whereever I could. I could fly solo and safely, by which I specifically mean, I could ensure that the model would never overfly people or property and could land safely where I expected. A flying club started using a field near to where I was flying and it made sense to join the club (all 35Mhz then).

 

It wasn't a warm welcome but I was accepted and I accepted the A rule. This is where my point that there is a gap between the A and safe flying comes in. I had flown by this time for about 2 years (with the same model) but it was not easy to pass an A test and took several attempts. I will state now and you will have to accept this - I am a better than average flyer.

 

The club is now split and we have no examiners. We do however have an excellent field well away from any potential hazard. Recently people have arrived who just like me started out with electric models and now want to fly larger models. This I suggest is and will be more common as cheaper and better RTF models become available. They are told that yes you can fly but only if there is an instructor here and available. This only happens at weekends. They are put off and fly elsewhere in public areas. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't fly safely at our dedicated site. The club and the BMFA have turned away potential members and there is possible danger to the public.

 

I hope that clarifies your question Martin. Lee - OK we're complaining at the moment and offering reasoned argument as to why the rule may be inappropriate. Why should I have to leave because I disagree with my club? You also talk about people like me 'dropping hand grenades'. You are accusing me of being destructive! I am trying to take part in a debate and raise sensible points and reasons. Surely I have a right to an opinion as long as it's not personal. The language you and FTB are choosing to use is devisive. You suggest that sticking together is the best way forward for the hobby. I agree and if that is to succed, there has to be a consensus. Telling people to leave if they don't like it will not achieve that aim.

Edited By Clive Matthews on 16/10/2009 18:13:32

Edited By Clive Matthews on 16/10/2009 18:18:00

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Clive,

 

I believe Lee and FTB are trying to make valid points and I don't feel that they are trying to be provocative although it might come over to you in that way.

 

I do agree that if you have no examiners then it's hardly reasonable to expect new members to get an A before flying solo and that's where local arrangements are perfectly sensible.  However, the point I made originally was about seemingly arrogant people expecting to be allowed to fly unsupervised at clubs that do have the facility to test both members and visitors and internal rules that require members to possess As. We seem to have wandered away from this to a more generalised discussion on the A test but it's a worthwhile discussion...

 

I can't possibly comment on your flying ability and have no reason to doubt your self-assessment but I would expect the majority of competent fliers to be capable of taking off and landing, flying circuits in either direction, a figure of eight and a simulated deadstick landing without too much drama, operating safely and having a working knowledge of the BMFA handbook.  Certainly, nerves can play a part in failing to perform to one's true ability and I hope this sort of factor would be taken into account by a decent examiner - although I believe less so for a B test which is often seen as a form of licence to fly in front of the public - perhaps something like this played a part in your difficulty - or did you simply encounter a poor examiner?

I don't see any reason why people who are good at flying small electric models shouldn't make the transition to larger IC (or electric) models easily and if their club requires them to take an A test, a little training to learn, perhaps, to take off from the ground and handle engines or powerful electric motors safely  should be achieved very quickly. With all things that are worth doing, a little effort is usually worthwhile and I'd also hope that any club imposing such requirements would provide the means to achieve them readily.

Edited By Martin Harris on 16/10/2009 19:12:14

[flytilbroke]

I Admit to responding to an adverse post seemingly aimed at me. That post was generated even though the poster or his opinion had NOT previously been part of my discourse/discussion therefore my comment was and could NOT have been in response targeted at him. END

 

Fly safely, support those who do, support those who with much thought formulate guides to help people fly safely. Most of us can see that such guides really do help, If this was not the case we would not have almost all clubs agreeing within themselves that the guidelines formulated and advised by the SAA and the BMFA. and I believe our Irish friends, are to the benefit of ALL model flyers in our Islands.

 

The "A" and the "Bronze" are as has been since inception been recognised as basic Safety Certificates . If,as some think they are not strong enough, argue to make them so.

 

No one that I know claim them to be a Licence. Although there seems to be a few who demand that they are recognised as such, slipping in by the back door

[Ultymate]

Why do people get so steamed up about something which is pretty basic SAFE UP and DOWN flying, once it's behind you the learning begins. As for the die hards who say "why should I do it I've been flying for years" it should be like shelling peas.

[Lee Smalley]

when you post why do people automatically assume that you are posting about them !! im not CM  i was responding to the earlier posts that seem to say that they think there may be an alternative motive, but hey !!

as for a lack of tolerance to opposing views i suggest im not the only one !

if the club brings in a rule you don't like you have the chance to vote against it, if it is passed by the majority but you still do not like that rule, then what other option do you have but to folow that rule or leave!!

 

i don't suppose you intend to ignore that rule do you !!

 

as for hand grenades hows " The BMFA may well have a democratic structure in place, but the 'old boy' network still prevails" 

how would anyone know unless you were there at agms etc

 

Clive have you ever tried to deal with councils etc whilst trying to keep your flying field, and dealing with incidents and noise complaints with the general public, i suspect not if you had you would see the benifit that the BMFA and a structured training scheme makes and mybe comments like

" Central guidlines - central negotiation! Great but we are a minority interest within much larger and better prepared groups. The A test arguement has little to do with this area"

 

would not be made!

 

you are totally allowed to have an opinion here and i would defend your right to express it , just don't get offended if people appose it

[Tim Mackey]

Please remeber to keep things gentlemanly....gentlemen

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Clive Matthews]

Yes I have dealt with bureaucracy both locally and nationally. Just because somebody has a differing viewpoint to the apparant majority, assuming that they have 'no clue' is unreasonable!

 

I have had enough of posters making assumptions, hey not even that - leaps beyond reality. No one seems to consider the arguments put by all elements. Is it too much work?

 

Lee, you're using the arguments that I myself have just made, against me. I will politely debate the subject. It is devisive and emotive  language such as; 'hand grenades' and 'anarchists' to which I object. THAT is what offends me!

 

Quote "some people take great delight comming on and dropping hand grenades around, some people also read too much into this and we have had people comming on hear with all sorts of theories as to the great nanny state and the evil of the BMFA and their dark intentions, but i suppose their will allways be people who see more into things than they actually are!"

 

This sort of language is aimed at dismissing proper and reasonable argument and be-littleing the poster. There is no substance to such statements, they are the start of a witch hunt!

 

From now on, in an effort to keep this sane and polite, I am happy to deal with a direct question about my views. I have made my position and reasoning very clear in my posts, but to again save any confusion;

 

BMFA = Good, Achievment schemes = Great, Club Flying Sites = Fantastic, Democracy = desirable. Fears = People being forced to fly outside of our world because they can't fit in with unreasonable rules.

 

[Peter Beeney]

    Flytilbroke -    Maybe we could consider that the situation at the moment is exactly as you describe it. Every club HAS got different standards. From none to whatever extreme they wish. As I said in my post of 06/10/2009 23:01:53, because model flying is unregulated, exactly as David has also said, individuals can alter the ‘guidelines’ to whatever degree of self-indulgence they choose. In my opinion, and also firsthand experience, this can sometimes be draconian. All on the pre-text that this is ‘The BMFA Rules’; and although the BMFA  might agree with me personally that this NOT so, by written letter indeed, they will do nothing to correct it. Again, I know this as fact. I think it would be extremely difficult for the BMFA to impose such controls to correct it, for starters, what authority would they have to do this have to do this? I totally accept that this should be adjusted at club level but it’s certainly not always that easy. Read, in some cases, impossible!
    As an example of severe rules, how about the one that I mentioned before, ‘If you don’t pass the A test, you will not be allowed to rejoin this club next year.‘ This little gem has been around for a long time, but where is this in the handbook? 
    Fortunately, probably because there are very few incidents, there are no legal quagmires. There are noise complaint disputes, in which the model club involved I suspect, usually ends up losing, as in our case, many years ago, simply because a wealthy landowner had more clout than the club!
   
    Martin,  I would certainly consider David’s points. For about three milli-seconds and then go along with them. All the way. I’ve always had the feeling that the rise in numbers of members was also in part due the BMFA’s ruling, instigated around 1980, as I remember, that all affiliated clubs must have 100% membership. Also as I remember, this resulted in the resignation of our Chairman, from the post and the club, when the club decided this, because he did not agree with the ‘closed shop‘ principle. He’d worked for many years in the printing industry, and had seen first hand what it was like. This near closed shop attitude, as I see it, may also account for my increasing perception of David’s very apt description - self-appointed over-seeing body. One question I’ve been asked, what exactly are the advantages (for the club) of being affiliated. I’m afraid I don’t really know.
    One query I would raise, at what level do you establish supervised? Would  you, for instance, insist on standing permanently with a non A pilot, even though he had the ability of perhaps a competent B pilot? Whilst someone who shows you an A is simply allowed to get on with it? I only ask because as I described, when we flew with the gliders, had you appeared as a visitor, I would have insisted on standing with you to start with. As soon as I knew you were capable, I’d have said “ You’re on your own, son”. However, if subsequently you had given cause for concern, then I would certainly have pointed this out. The whole club was at stake. And as a general rule, we still operate this way.

    Fortunately, I reckon that most clubs do function on a very satisfactory basis, with the members just enjoying the flying.  Which is exactly how it should be.     PB    

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

OK - I'll take the challenge...

 

Someone turns up at "my" club and announces that he's Phil Wood, moderator of this forum.

 

Great to meet you, I've read many of your postings and from your words and words of others know you to be "one of the lads" and an enthusiastic slope flier and combat pilot (does that read hooligan?). I bet we'll get on just fine.

 

We're a power club and fly close to a village and have, in the distant past, fallen out with some of the locals.  Thankfully, with responsible operation and self-policing, we've established pretty good relations with the locals (touch everything wooden within 30 yards).  Are you flying a power model?  Have you flown much power recently? Have you ever flown anything other than gliders? Are you even who you say you are? Truthfully, I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

 

OK - I doubt that you would fall foul of many of them but should I take the risk on behalf of over 70 fellow members - I think I would want some sort of proof that you did actually have the competence that you claim and a valid power A cert would go a long way towards giving me that confidence. OK, your mate might have given you your A in the pub 15 years ago but generally in my (limited) experience, people take testing responsibilities pretty seriously.

 

Assume we've established that you've got an A - being a friendly sort of chap (and club) I (or someone else) would probably give you a local airspace briefing and a hand with your model (unless you objected) and come out on the flightline with you for a chat while you flew. Yes, I'm sure we'd keep a friendly eye on the way you were flying at first but unless you turned out to be incompetent or dangerous wouldn't interfere with your operation and let you get on as you wanted just like any other member.

 

No A - well we do have a club rule and it is difficult to justify that a club member should have to get his but you can come and we'll ignore the rule so to be fair, we'd ask you to accept a club member being with you on the flightline - hopefully not too great an imposition?

 

We're not stupidly officious (I hope) and as an example, when we invited Ali Mashinchi to demonstrate jet flying at our club, I don't recall anyone asking him to produce an A...

 

 

 

 

[Clive Matthews]

Has he got one?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Peter, I think you'll find an answer to most of your questions to me in my reply to Phil.

 

I think that the total club membership requirement is justified by the blanket insurance cover for club activities - whether that is seen as true justification or something used to "encourage" membership would be for the individual to decide.

 

Affiliation gives access to the services of the BMFA - it's up to us as members to direct the association to serve us as we would see fit.

Edited By Martin Harris on 16/10/2009 20:57:05

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Clive Matthews on 16/10/2009 20:34:27:

I have had enough of posters making assumptions, hey not even that - leaps beyond reality. No one seems to consider the arguments put by all elements. Is it too much work?

 Now I'm disappointed - I thought that I was doing just that and you've even alluded to it in previous posts

[Clive Matthews]

Posted by Clive Matthews on 16/10/2009 18:05:55:

Between answering flytilbroke and posting, yet 2 more posts arrive. At least Martin is reading and asking question pertinent to my opinions, thank you.

[Ultymate]

Posted by Phil Wood - Moderator on 16/10/2009 20:08:31:

Many readers here are club officials so I'll ask this question:...........would you welcome me as a visitor to your site?

You know I can fly.......even in a 60mph breeze..... ......Timbo will testify to that after I've kicked his butt around the Orme in combat a few times.

You know I must have a good knowledge of safety because as a moderator, I have to advise new members.

Would you just expect me to produce my documentation or would you take me at face value?

This is a "feeler" question......just designed to judge the mood.

Polyphilla.

 Phil to fly solo at the Rhyl field you would need proof of insurance and a current BMFA "A" certificate What happens at the Orme between consenting adults is their affair

Edited By Ultymate on 16/10/2009 21:07:12

Edited By Ultymate on 16/10/2009 21:08:48

[flytilbroke]

Tongue in cheek Clive? I believe you have been around long enough to know the answer. Much advanced certificate wise he is.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Gents, I think we'll lock up the thread there, it's run its course and certainly made interesting reading.

 

...anyone want to know what I think? Well, in the words of the late great Groucho Marx - I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member (or something like that...)