Gaz Elliott Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Hi all, I have a hager fuse box and i want to supply the carport with electric and light for model workshop. I have a steel armour cable going from the the garage to carport which then supplies a 5amp swithed fuse connection for lights then carries on ( In a T off so it will still be full power ) to a double socket. All boxes are IPC66 waterproof as are the lights. But what size fuse would be recommended to attach the SWA cable to the fuse box??? Cheers guys i am growing out of the wooden hanger so this will just be a store and the carport will be the workshop!!! I am slowly taking over the house!!!! But don't tell my wife!!! Gaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytilbroke Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Gaz, I hope someone who is qualified and up to date with the Regulations answers this for you. I believe that direct connection wiring is no longer allowed unless the person fitting it has the correct Certfication to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Wright 2 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 That's correct but it is easy and not expensive to get it signed off by a qualified electrician who will also sort the fuse value.they may want a rcd and mcb incorporated into the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 The size of fuse is determined by the current rating of the SWA cable and should be less. Use an RCD. Unless its changed recently, certification is relevant in England but not for this type of work in Bonny Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Lynock Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 There have been a lot of changes under the new 17th Edition rules and regs, I do know boxes have to be split load now and all sorts of other updates to the type of switching you can use, if your box is 16th edition or earlier it may not be legally usable and against the law for you or a qualified lecky to install it. The instalation will have to be certificated by the electrician and it is more than his job and livlihood is worth to install old consumer units and all changed have to be reported to the local council. I have just had a 16th edition unit installed but this was only legal because the MEB had previously installed a RCD outside on the main fuseboard, as this pre-empted the system and would safeguard the whole of the installation it was legal to fit the 16th edition box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W-O Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Posted by Terence Lynock on 11/02/2011 01:40:15:There have been a lot of changes under the new 17th Edition rules and regs, I do know boxes have to be split load now and all sorts of other updates to the type of switching you can use, if your box is 16th edition or earlier it may not be legally usable and against the law for you or a qualified lecky to install it. The instalation will have to be certificated by the electrician and it is more than his job and livlihood is worth to install old consumer units and all changed have to be reported to the local council. I have just had a 16th edition unit installed but this was only legal because the MEB had previously installed a RCD outside on the main fuseboard, as this pre-empted the system and would safeguard the whole of the installation it was legal to fit the 16th edition box. I don't think the boxes are 16th or 17th edition, it it is the way they are connected that is determined by the new regs. It seems that a split box, where some circuits are connected through the RCD and some are not is no longer allowed, all have to now go through the RCD, but most boxes could be re-bussed so that all the circuits go through the RCD. The only disadvantage I can see with the new system is that you are no longer able to have your deep freezers on a non RCD circuit, which is good for when you go on holiday. But as the government has made us all so poor we can no longer afford holidays, we don't need that now When we moved into this house, I replaced the board to ensure we had an RCD, I had always been used to having one, and found it worrying not to have one. I also have separate ones in the garage and shed, properly cascaded. The new regulations only seem to be catching us up with other countries, nothing seems to be excessive or unreasonable in them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Posted by Gaz Elliott on 05/02/2011 13:58:37: Hi all, I have a hager fuse box and i want to supply the carport with electric and light for model workshop. I have a steel armour cable going from the the garage to carport which then supplies a 5amp swithed fuse connection for lights then carries on ( In a T off so it will still be full power ) to a double socket. All boxes are IPC66 waterproof as are the lights. But what size fuse would be recommended to attach the SWA cable to the fuse box??? Cheers guys i am growing out of the wooden hanger so this will just be a store and the carport will be the workshop!!! I am slowly taking over the house!!!! But don't tell my wife!!! Gaz You really need an electrician to do this. The size of the cable needs to be calculated and more important the prospective earth fault current should be measured to ensure that the fuses/breakers operate in the event of a fault. The electrician will also check the polarity and insulation resistance. Bert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 "The only disadvantage I can see with the new system is that you are no longer able to have your deep freezers on a non RCD circuit" Not sure if that is totally correct. As far as I understand it RCDs are used throughout to overcome the requirements to provide physical protection to cables and its an easy fix. Cables within the fabric of a building can be enclosed with earthed steel conduit as a means of overcoming these requirements and no RCD would be needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Lynock Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The first thing the electrician did was check on the earth bonding to make sure it was continuous and properly installed, the unit I used was a Hager 5+5 split load 16th eddition which was well over £100 new but I got it for thirty quid off Ebay complete with spare RCB's and a RCD which is identical to the one fitted by the MEB outside, this alone is nearly forty quids worth and will do as a spare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename-John Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 under the 17th ed regs any sockets for use by ordinary persons in a house must have rcd protection, and any other circuit must have rcd protection if it is in a "special location" ie, kitchen, bathroom or outside, then, in england and wales, under part p of the building regulations any new additional circuits or alterations to existing circuits in a special location must be tested and certified in accordance with the 17th ed regs, and reported to the local building authority, which costs around £180 for you to do or £1.50 for a registered electrician on a competant person scheme, terence it sounds like you have an earth system called a TT system with a spike in the ground outside, and the earth fault path would be too high to certify unless an rcd was added, and to get around this sometimes the MEB put a 100mA rcd in to protect the supply, domestic circuits need a 30mA so its worth checking to see if its correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Interesting Neil. Has there been an amendment to the regulations to include kitchens as a "special location"? With reference to a freezer socket outlet, no RCD protection is required, provided the outlet is specifically marked for that purpose???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Lynock Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The complete system, consumer unit, earth bonding, sockets and lights and everything else was checked out by a qualified electrician two weeks ago when the new unit went in, the original heating system here was night storage and wall heaters which are all gone now but the wiring system is still in but dead. The tails for the heating supply have been disconnected at the meter so I can pull all the old switching and supply box out now, they were on the old cartridge/ ceramic fuse holders which may still be of use in a shed or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename-John Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 hamish its more or less anywhere you might encounter water see http://www.competentperson.co.uk/files/consumerbooklet.pdf for more detail, regarding the freezer, it would have to be its own circuit, with the cable either not buried less than 50mm from the surface of the wall or with an earthed mechanical protection, such as the conduit mentioned. then a dedicated labelled socket just for that, or better a fused spur with the freezer permanently connected, things like smoke detectors as well dont have to be protected thats why on the better new boards theyre split 2+5+5 or so, 2 non rcd ways and 2 sets of 5 protected ways, you could still use a "16th edition" board if you were using surface mounted trunking or conduits and just have socket and special location circuits protected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Well Neil, then a kitchen it is not a Special Location as defined in the Regs.. The more relevant tie up for special locations is where there is water and you are more likely to be vulnerable to shock ie naked and you would not normally shower in the kitchen sink. As you have explained sockets can be provided for specific purposes provided the relevant precautions are taken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename-John Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 but if you have to get picky of exact definitions for part p of the building regulations it is included hamish, how are you less at risk in water in kitchen than the shower you dont normally wash your hands in the kitchen sink with insulated gloves on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 whats the problem with having a freezer on an rcd ?here in Cyprus there is an rcd fitted on all properties between the electric meter and the main consumer unit, I admit it is a 500ma rated leakage.Yes you guessed it, any fault what soever and the entire house shuts down. Neil wilding you seem to be a qualified sparkswhy do backer supply immersion heaters with the thermostat set to 85 degrees and not mark it as such. It causes people in hard water areas problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename-John Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 i am but youd have to ask backer ? lol the problem is as you say nusiance tripping, if your out for the day / week or whenever and your rcd trips the whole installation your freezer defrosts and all your food is spoilt, but as long as nothing is faulty in the installation or plugged into it its a miniscule problem anyway that you never really hear of, but its specifed in the regs that if a socket is specificly marked and only used for certain items you can omit the rcd protection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Neil, you are not normally naked in the kitchen taking a shower! You did say " a special location ie, kitchen, bathroom or outside," which is incorrect in respect of the regulations which you were referring to at the time. Are you now saying that Part "P" has additional "regulations" that are not part of the 17th Edition Regulations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename-John Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 this is getting petty now hamish, your hands are naked when they are in the water, whats the difference if its one part of your body or the whole thing ? Approved document p of the building regulations states that with regard to a dwelling, if any new circuits are added to an installation or any extensions or alterations occur to any circuit within the kitchen, bathroom or outside must be reported to the local authority building control, this is not a requirement just to comply with bs 7671 2008 so yes there is additons in document p, satisfied ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 What you appear to fail to understand neil is that if you quote to a regulation you have to be specific as to what that regulation says. It does not say a kitchen is a special location and that is the end of the matter. My references about being naked were to try and let you understand part of the logic behind special locations. Whatever Part P requires administratively has nothing to do with complying with the regulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Mackey Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Thread closed due to overheating fuses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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